For.a FA-125 Frame Synchronizer & TBC

[Cingular]

Hello,

I am inquiring why no one recommends or uses the FOR.A FA-125 Time Base Corrector. This looks to be a current offering, and from what I can tell, it is the only unit that offers a S-video Connection.

http://www.for-a.com/products/fa125/fa125.html

Reading though some forums, I read that some Time Base Correctors can soften the image. Would a "nicer" Time Base Corrector like the FA-125 fix time Frame Synch errors with less softening to the image?

Any thoughts are greatly appreciated.

Thanks for your help.

[luigi2000]

The retail price is $1650. The specs indicates full bandwidth capability. Faroudja electronics that I have used work fine.

[edDV]

I've recommended the FA-125 several times. People here don't want to pay that much.

A good economic strategy is to buy one used on eBay, transfer your tapes, then resell it.

[Cingular]

I have never seen a used FA-125. Do you think the FA-125 would yield significantly better results than a data Video TBC-1000? Is the FA-125 more expensive because of a built in proc amp or, as I presume, it yields a better overall product?

[edDV]

I have never seen a used FA-125. Do you think the FA-125 would yield significantly better results than a data Video TBC-1000?

Yes

Is the FA-125 more expensive because of a built in proc amp or, as I presume, it yields a better overall product?

Yes

Main differences will be in composite Y/C separation quality, proc amp features and the FA-125 processes 10 bit vs 8 bit for the TBC-1000.

Still it remains my opinion that the ideal frame sync/TBC for VHS capture would output digital rather than analog. The more sophisticated models (e.g. FA-145) output SDI rather than analog. There is no reason to digitize twice but you would need to add an SDI card.

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/295571-What-is-uncompressed-AVI/page2?highlight=ensemble+designs
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/313301

[sanlyn]

I am inquiring why no one recommends or uses the FOR.A FA-125 Time Base Corrector. This looks to be a current offering, and from what I can tell, it is the only unit that offers a S-video Connection.

The AVT-8710 has s-video and composite connections. It doesn't have a proc amp, but it does have basic image/color controls that are a bit clumsy to use but work cleanly without causing new problems. It doesn't have everything, but it doesn't cost $1600-plus. Mine has worked flawlessly for 8 years.

[Cingular]

I just called For.A tech support.
My output is a JVC SR-W7U, AG-1980P, Sony EV-S7000 and the input is a AJA Kona LHe card.

He told me, as EVERYONE else as told me, that I DO NOT NEED a frame synch. The FOR.A technical support rep seemed VERY knowledgeable about video. The For.A rep told me to look for flags in the upper left hand corner of the frame, if the upper left hand corner is rounded off, then I need a Frame-Synch. The upper left hand corner should be square. He said that it will be VERY obvious. According to the For.A tech rep I spoke with, any VCR made in the last 20 or 30 years has some sort of TBC. The For.A rep said they to not sell TBC's, they have a frame-synch with a TBC built in however, such as the FA-125, FA-145, FA-147.

Further, according to the For.A rep I spoke with, a frame synch or gen-lock is only needed if you are inputting more than one video source simultaneously.

I asked the For.A rep about he FA-145, that outputs SDI too, and he said that it is not needed if you are using a Kona LHe. card. He said that there is no advantage to letting the FA-145 do the digital conversion over the Kona LHe card.

Interestingly, pretty much EVERY source I have spoken with has said that you need not need a separate TBC or frame synch. Perhaps some of these sources are confusing TBC's with Frame Synchs?

Why is the FA-145 a better at converting uncompressed 10 bit Standard Definition than an AJA Kona LHe?

Is a separate, external Frame-Synch really necessary in conjunction with a Panasonic AG-1980P, JVC SR-W7U, Sony EV-S7000?

So, I must ask, how did the moderators of this forum determine that you need to have a separate TBC/Frame-Synch in addition to the one already on the VCR? Resolution test charts?

I am not trying to argue, I just want to understand.

I DID find a reference on the "Creative Cow Forums" that suggested a separate stand along TBC/Frame Synch was necessary, I think they had perhaps referenced a "Hotronic model," but again, this was just by ONE poster. The rest seemed relatively clueless.

Maybe the FOR.A technical support person does not work with VHS to Digital Conversion enough to know?

Thanks for all your help, and for offering this forum which is a GREAT source of information.

[edDV]

This is the first time you mentioned you had an AJA Kona LHe. There has been controversy whether the Kona LH series has a TBC or if it does have limited TBC function, is the error range great enough for VHS. See this thread including the response from AJA tech support.
http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/98/873939

Normally with a Kona for A/D capture, one would use a VCR with built in TBC or a frame sync/TBC between the VCR and Kona.

The FOR.A FA-145 would be used instead of the AJA Kona LH.

[filmboss80]

The JVC SR-W7U and Panasonic AG-1980P already have built-in TBCs. The only thing I'm not too sure about is your Sony Hi-8 deck.

Unless you are doing live mixes between all these video sources--using a live video switcher to mix and blend these multiple videos, you don't need to worry about sync and genlock. In the days of analog telecasting and multi-input post-production, you had to synchronize the timing of all your video sources to avoid glitches. But if you are feeding each source into a computer, one after the other, there's absolutely no need for genlock or frame synchronization. After all, if you're only feeding in one source at a time, then to what other source are you trying to lock or synchronize?

The TBC is essential to stabilize a bad analog source, but if image softening and color tweaking is the only concern, then you always have the option of doing these things with software after the footage is digitized.

[Cingular]

If the JVC SR-W7U IS digital, then in order to take advantage of that feature, I need to use the composite, "digital" output?

If I use the composite "digital" output, then any of the sharpening or pro amp controls of a Studio 1/Sign Video PA2 or DR1000 Image enhancer will not work because their input is only RCA or S-Video?

So, it seems, that ALL you need is a JVC SR-W7U and the correct capture card, such as an AJA LHe? Possibly I might need another time base corrector, such as the FOR-A? I think the FOR-A does have composite inputs.

Is it possible to pass a digital signal though S-Video? I know that DVD players can output though S-Video.


Thanks for your help.

[Cingular]

to edDV:

I read though that link. According to the AJA manual only the Kona LS has a time base corrector. All of the support reps at AJA said you DO NOT NEED a time base corrector with a VHS source from a professional Deck with a built in TBC for a Kona LHe.

The answer, to me, seems ambiguous on AJA's part since they could not clarify what was written in their own manual in terms of the importance or usefullness of the "TBC" in the Kona/Xena LS. The Xena and Kona are the same card, just marketing toward different platforms.

This is from the AJA Xena manual:

XENA LSe/LS Features
The XENA LS card offers the best solution for affordable SD capture and playback. It offers a cost-effective solution for capture, playback, and printing video for non-linear editing and visual effects/motion graphics.
XENA LS features include:
12-bit Component/Composite/S-video analog I/O•
SDI input and 2 independent SDI outputs•
AES I/O; sample rate conversion on input (2-channel XLR)•
Balanced analog audio I/O (2-channel XLR)•
8-channel SDI embedded audio support•
Broadcast-quality Time Base Correction (TBC) with VHS support•
Genlock and RS-422 Machine Control•
AJA Support for TGA, TIFF, BMP, AVI, and QuickTime files•
XENA Installation and Operation Manual — Introduction 7
Supports all popular standard definition formats in NTSC and PAL•
Cables standard and KL-Box breakout box optional•
AJA XENA software, including application plugins and AJA Machina • capture/playout software
PCI-express bus interface (XENA LSe)•
PCI-X compatible bus interface (XENA LS)

[edDV]

If the JVC SR-W7U IS digital, then in order to take advantage of that feature, I need to use the composite, "digital" output?

If I use the composite "digital" output, then any of the sharpening or pro amp controls of a Studio 1/Sign Video PA2 or DR1000 Image enhancer will not work because their input is only RCA or S-Video?

So, it seems, that ALL you need is a JVC SR-W7U and the correct capture card, such as an AJA LHe? Possibly I might need another time base corrector, such as the FOR-A? I think the FOR-A does have composite inputs.

Is it possible to pass a digital signal though S-Video? I know that DVD players can output though S-Video.

The JVC SR-W7U has a built in TBC so connect it direct to the Kona LHe with S-Video and RCA audio.

Digital output would be an MPeg2 TS stream over Firewire which would not be as edit friendly as uncompressed from the analog outputs/Kona. You would capture with CapDVHS for Windows. I forget the equivalent Mac program.

The Sony EV-S7000 and Panasonic AG-1980P both have internal TBC so just connect them directly to the Kona.

[Cingular]

edDV:

Which output should I use to connect to the Kona LHe? I am guessing that the component is best. Assuming that, does that mean that anything I add between the SR-W7U and the Kona LHe needs to have component input rather than composite RCA/S-Video?

Considering that, it reduces the choices in terms of sharpers and pro-amps. Then again, this SR-W7U is supposed to produce a GREAT image as a stand alone.

I suppose these other issues with color can be addressed post-process? I thought I was best to correct all the video as much as possible BEFORE it goes to digital.


Thanks again.

[edDV]

edDV:

Which output should I use to connect to the Kona LHe? I am guessing that the component is best. Assuming that, does that mean that anything I add between the SR-W7U and the Kona LHe needs to have component input rather than composite RCA/S-Video?

Considering that, it reduces the choices in terms of sharpers and pro-amps. Then again, this SR-W7U is supposed to produce a GREAT image as a stand alone.

I suppose these other issues with color can be addressed post-process? I thought I was best to correct all the video as much as possible BEFORE it goes to digital.

I'm unfamiliar with the outputs on the SR-W7U. If you use S-Video, then you know all of the TBC functions will work. VHS and SVHS record Y/C to tape so S-Video Y/C is the natural output. I trust the Kona NTSC decoder.

If the SR-W7U has analog component outputs then you must question whether the TBC functions are active. Also the NTSC decode would be done in the VCR.

As for correcting extreme levels issues, there must be tweaks that you can reach in the VCR. You may need to remove some panels. To make this work, you would need an oscilloscope or a waveform monitor in the path. The Kona card may have input levels tweaks in the software.

Also, since the Kona is a uses a 12 bit A/D, digital levels setting will have fine increments.

[Cingular]

EdDV:

The JVC SR-W7U has composite outputs such as S-video and RCA, but it also has something called "component" output. Component output is a further separation of S-Video with three BNC connectors. My understanding is that component output can even be adapted to DVI. This Component outpout is labeled "HD Video in" and "HD Video out" and consists of three BNC connectors.

[edDV]

EdDV:

The JVC SR-W7U has composite outputs such as S-video and RCA, but it also has something called "component" output.

Composite is composite NTSC. No advantage to using this.

S-Video is Y (luminance) and C (NTSC modulated subcarrier). Y/C are directly demodulated off tape so is the closest to original.

Analog component Y Pb Pr for VHS/SVHS SD must be demodulated from C. I'd trust the NTSC demod on the Kona/Xena over the VCR. Hence S-Video should be used to connect the VCR to the Kona/Xena card.

Do you have a link to the SR-W7U manual?

[edDV]

EdDV:

My understanding is that component output can even be adapted to DVI. This Component outpout is labeled "HD Video in" and "HD Video out" and consists of three BNC connectors.

No, I doubt it. Analog component (aka Y Pb Pr) is/was used to connect digital tuners and HD monitors pre DVI/HDMI. DVI/HDMI are digital, component is analog.

The normal digital connection for D-VHS is Firewire using MPeg2 TS streams.

[sanlyn]

The JVC SR-W7U has composite outputs such as S-video and RCA. . .

Only the RCA connection is "composite". S-Video isn't composite; it's also known as "y/c" and can be much cleaner in operation than composite. Also note that S-VHS and S-video aren't the same thing. S-VHS is a tape format, S-video is a type of tansmission.