Ghosting effect

[nikgelfi]

Hi all, I am capturing some VHS (Cartoons) with this setup:

Panasonic NV-FS200 VCR
Datavideo TBC-1000
Canopus ADVC-110

I am capturing DV (PAL) @720x576 interlaced, and then I convert it with TMPGenc Video Mastering Works to standard DVD format. I disabled all deinterlacing filters. Nevertheless sometimes when there is a lot of motion the video present some ghosting effects. The ghosting is visible on the PC monitor and also on my led TV.
What can I do? Is this normal even if I am NOT deinterlacing anything?
Thanks.

[jagabo]

There are may possibilities. It's best if you post short before (DV AVI) and after (MPG or M2V) samples.

[johns0]

Does the ghosting effect look like mosquito noise?Could be too low of a bitrate of fast motion scenes,maybe the fields got reversed when encoded.

[nikgelfi]

Does the ghosting effect look like mosquito noise?Could be too low of a bitrate of fast motion scenes,maybe the fields got reversed when encoded.

No, it seems like a double image effect.
The bit rate is quite high (9200 kb/s).
The only thing I noticed is that the input DV file is BFF (bottom field first) and the output MPG-2 is TFF (top field first).
Do you think that could be the culprit?

[edDV]

Field reversal would result in studdered motion (two steps forward then one back).

Ghosting (double vision) is usually a blend deinterlace artifact.

[nikgelfi]

Field reversal would result in studdered motion (two steps forward then one back).

Ghosting (double vision) is usually a blend deinterlace artifact.

Yeah, I know, but I have disabled all deinterlacing filters in TMPGenc Video Mastering Works, at least all that I am aware of...
And the DV AVI source is interlaced in its own...
Thanks gain.

[jagabo]

I guess you're not going to upload samples. So here are a few of the possibilities:

1) The source may already have blended fields.

2) TMPGEnc may have resized the frame improperly.

3) TMPGEnc may have mishandled interlaced chroma.

4) The player may be mishandling interlaced chroma.

Without samples it's impossible to say what's going on and how to fix it.

[nikgelfi]

I guess you're not going to upload samples. So here are a few of the possibilities:

1) The source may already have blended fields.

2) TMPGEnc may have resized the frame improperly.

3) TMPGEnc may have mishandled interlaced chroma.

4) The player may be mishandling interlaced chroma.

Without samples it's impossible to say what's going on and how to fix it.

I will upload samples, but my upload bandwith is very limited. It will take some time.
Thanks anyway!

[edDV]

I guess you're not going to upload samples. So here are a few of the possibilities:

1) The source may already have blended fields.

2) TMPGEnc may have resized the frame improperly.

3) TMPGEnc may have mishandled interlaced chroma.

4) The player may be mishandling interlaced chroma.

Without samples it's impossible to say what's going on and how to fix it.

I will upload samples, but my upload bandwith is very limited. It will take some time.
Thanks anyway!

VHelp limit is 30MB. A few native frames showing motion will work.

[nikgelfi]

VHelp limit is 30MB. A few native frames showing motion will work.

Here are the samples: I attached a few frames in AVI (direct cut from DV source with VirtualDub) and (more or less) the same frames encoded by TMPGEnc without any deinterlacing or filters.
Thanks in advance for your help.

[jagabo]

The blending is in the AVI file, probably on the VHS tape, and partly because of an NTSC to PAL conversion. The only way I know of partially fixing this is via an AviSynth script:

AviSource("test.avi")
Levels(16,1,220,0,255) # adjust levels
Yadif(mode=1, order=0) # bob
SRestore() # pick out least blended frames
McTemporalDenoise(settings="very high") # general denoise

SRestore() usually does a better job than this. But this video has more blending than is usual for an NTSC to PAL conversion. The video could also use a little color adjustment and there are also some filters that clean up the black outlines on cartoons. That script leaves you with a 23.976 fps frame rate so you'll need to change it back to 25 fps if you plan to make a PAL DVD. Changing SRestore() to SRestore(frate=25) may be good enough.

Xvid AVI attached.

[nikgelfi]

The blending is in the AVI file, probably on the VHS tape, and partly because of an NTSC to PAL conversion. The only way I know of partially fixing this is via an AviSynth script:

AviSource("test.avi")
Levels(16,1,220,0,255) # adjust levels
Yadif(mode=1, order=0) # bob
SRestore() # pick out least blended frames
McTemporalDenoise(settings="very high") # general denoise

SRestore() usually does a better job than this. But this video has more blending than is usual for an NTSC to PAL conversion. The video could also use a little color adjustment and there are also some filters that clean up the black outlines on cartoons. That script leaves you with a 23.976 fps frame rate so you'll need to change it back to 25 fps if you plan to make a PAL DVD. Changing SRestore() to SRestore(frate=25) may be good enough.

Xvid AVI attached.

Thanks a bunch...
The only thing I don't understand is about NTSC to PAL conversion. My videos are all PAL, also the VHS are all PAL...
Maybe I didn't understand what you mean.
Thanks again

[manono]

My videos are all PAL, also the VHS are all PAL...

Yes, but apparently your PAL videos came from an NTSC source and were blended in the conversion to PAL. The unblending returns them to their original framerate.

[nikgelfi]

My videos are all PAL, also the VHS are all PAL...

Yes, but apparently your PAL videos came from an NTSC source and were blended in the conversion to PAL. The unblending returns them to their original framerate.

But if I watch the VHS on my TV there is no blending... is this normal?
Thanks!

[nikgelfi]

Having issues with Avisynth (running Windows 7 x64).
The script jagabo posted gives me an error at line 3: no function named Yadif. I downloaded Yadif and unpacked it in the plugins folder of Avisynth... what's going on?
Thanks!

[poisondeathray]

yadif is one of the few that don't autoload and need to be loaded as a c-plugin manually

Load_Stdcall_Plugin("C:\PATH\yadif.dll")

[jagabo]

But if I watch the VHS on my TV there is no blending... is this normal?

When you see 50 fields per second on the TV it's hard to notice the blending. On a computer where you can look at individual frames or fields the blending is obvious. The MPEG file is encoded properly. If you flip through it field by field you see each field is exactly the same as the corresponding field in the AVI file (aside from a little MPEG artifacting). When viewed on a TV at 50 fields per second it should look exactly like the original VHS source.

Looking again at the AVI file, I think there is something else going on here. There are many more blended fields than is normal for an NTSC/PAL conversion. In some sections pretty much every field has blends. The cartoon was otherwise mangled before it became an AVI file. Which is why SRestore() doesn't work very well. Does your VCR have some noise reduction circuitry? Can you recapture the sequence again, with the noise reduction turned off? Maybe that will help.

[nikgelfi]

When you see 50 fields per second on the TV it's hard to notice the blending. On a computer where you can look at individual frames or fields the blending is obvious. The MPEG file is encoded properly. If you flip through it field by field you see each field is exactly the same as the corresponding field in the AVI file (aside from a little MPEG artifacting). When viewed on a TV at 50 fields per second it should look exactly like the original VHS source.

Looking again at the AVI file, I think there is something else going on here. There are many more blended fields than is normal for an NTSC/PAL conversion. In some sections pretty much every field has blends. The cartoon was otherwise mangled before it became an AVI file. Which is why SRestore() doesn't work very well. Does your VCR have some noise reduction circuitry? Can you recapture the sequence again, with the noise reduction turned off? Maybe that will help.

My VCR has a Noise Filter switch which is indeed ON. The VCR internal TBC was on too. I will try recapturing and will post samples.
By the way, is there a difference between a standard TV and a brand new led TV? I mean, if I watch the AVI or the MPG file on the led TV which has a 50 Hz refresh rate, should I see the blending or not? What I see now on the led TV is pretty much the same I see on the PC monitor.
Last question: is there an Avisynth plugin manager or something to help me with the various filters dependencies? Maybe a complete filter pack? Sorry, Avisynth newbie!

[jagabo]

is there a difference between a standard TV and a brand new led TV? I mean, if I watch the AVI or the MPG file on the led TV which has a 50 Hz refresh rate, should I see the blending or not?

That will depend on a lot of factors. In the best case a progressive LCD/plasma will look about the same as an interlaced CRT. But an HDTV might be attempting to restore the original film frames and getting confused by all the blended fields. Or noise reduction filters in the HDTV may be exacerbating the blending.

is there an Avisynth plugin manager or something to help me with the various filters dependencies? Maybe a complete filter pack? Sorry, Avisynth newbie!

I don't think there's any kind of filter manager. Yeah, it's a pain finding and maintaining all the right filters.

[nikgelfi]

That will depend on a lot of factors. In the best case a progressive LCD/plasma will look about the same as an interlaced CRT. But an HDTV might be attempting to restore the original film frames and getting confused by all the blended fields. Or noise reduction filters in the HDTV may be exacerbating the blending.
.

So you would suggest deinterlacing the video to make it progressive for watching on an HDTV? I was trying to create DVDs, but my DVD player is connected via HDMI to the HDTV, so...
Sorry, but I am confused. I read lordsmurf saying that the best is to keep everything interlaced, but...
Thanks again for your advice.

[jagabo]

So you would suggest deinterlacing the video to make it progressive for watching on an HDTV? I was trying to create DVDs, but my DVD player is connected via HDMI to the HDTV, so...
Sorry, but I am confused. I read lordsmurf saying that the best is to keep everything interlaced, but...
Thanks again for your advice.

Generally, it's easiest to leave the video interlaced. But your TV/DVD combination doesn't seen to like that with this particular video. Inverse telecine back to the original film frames would be a good solution. But with the blending that may not be possible either.

Have you connected the VCR directly to the HDTV? Does it look better or worse than the DVD you made? Is the DVD player upscaling? If so, maybe switching to 576i will help (the TV will do the upscaling and deinterlacing instead). Is it a 100 Hz or 200 Hz TV? Try disabling the motion smoothing.

[nikgelfi]

So you would suggest deinterlacing the video to make it progressive for watching on an HDTV? I was trying to create DVDs, but my DVD player is connected via HDMI to the HDTV, so...
Sorry, but I am confused. I read lordsmurf saying that the best is to keep everything interlaced, but...
Thanks again for your advice.

Generally, it's easiest to leave the video interlaced. But your TV/DVD combination doesn't seen to like that with this particular video. Inverse telecine back to the original film frames would be a good solution. But with the blending that may not be possible either.

Have you connected the VCR directly to the HDTV? Does it look better or worse than the DVD you made? Is the DVD player upscaling? If so, maybe switching to 576i will help (the TV will do the upscaling and deinterlacing instead). Is it a 100 Hz or 200 Hz TV? Try disabling the motion smoothing.

I was playing the MPG file directly with ACRyan Playon! DVR, not with my DVD Player. I will try with that too.
Connecting the VCR directly to the TV via the composite jack yields better results but the blending is still visible.
By the way, your AVS script does a very good job removing noise, but it is veery slow.
I have tried with the AVS RePAL() Filter and I have obtained a slightly better blending removal, but nothing special.
I fear I'll have to live with it...

[jagabo]

Have you tried re-capturing with all noise filters disabled? That may reduce the amount of ghosting, giving SRestore() or RePal() something better to start with. Then Denoise after restoring the film frames.

Yes, McTemporalDenoise() is very slow. With animation you can probably get by with simpler temporal denoising filters.

[nikgelfi]

Have you tried re-capturing with all noise filters disabled? That may reduce the amount of ghosting, giving SRestore() or RePal() something better to start with. Then Denoise after restoring the film frames.

Yes, McTemporalDenoise() is very slow. With animation you can probably get by with simpler temporal denoising filters.

Yes, I tried, no noticeable difference with that particular tape.
Which other filters would you suggest for animation?
Thanks!

[jagabo]

I don't do a lot of denoising but try something like Deen(thrY=20, thrUV=25, ti=50), or VirtualDub's Temporal Smoother at 6 or 7. There's always Neat Video for VirtualDub, but it's pretty slow, like McTemporalDenoise().

[nikgelfi]

I don't do a lot of denoising but try something like Deen(thrY=20, thrUV=25, ti=50), or VirtualDub's Temporal Smoother at 6 or 7. There's always Neat Video for VirtualDub, but it's pretty slow, like McTemporalDenoise().

Thanks. As far as you know, would Neat Video provide better quality than MCTemporalDenoise() even if it's slow?
Pity that AviSynth is not optimized for Quad Core CPUs. My Q9650 CPU is currently running at about 32% while denoising.

[jagabo]

Thanks. As far as you know, would Neat Video provide better quality than MCTemporalDenoise() even if it's slow?

I find that Neat Video and MCTD() are comparable. One or the other may work better on different material. And a lot has to do with tweaking the settings.

Pity that AviSynth is not optimized for Quad Core CPUs. My Q9650 CPU is currently running at about 32% while denoising.

There are multithreaded builds around. It still takes some tweaking of the script.

[lordsmurf]

Got the PM.
I don't really have anything else to add to this conversation.