In search of a new video camcorder

[neuz]

I currently have a Canon ZR700 that has died on me. I am beginning a search for a new camcorder. I was wanting to no more than around $700-$800. I like the camcorders that record to the miniDV only because I think it has better quality than recording to a hard drive( not sure if I am correct in my thinking). Do the camera's now record in HD? I would like something that records well in low-light( who doesn't right! ). And a pretty good zoom. I don't care if it can take stills or not.
Any suggestions as to a good camera around this price range would be great. It took me forever to pick the ZR700(not sure I did good on it or not) and was just hoping to get some good advise from this great forum.
Thanks,
Neuz

[edDV]

I currently have a Canon ZR700 that has died on me. I am beginning a search for a new camcorder. I was wanting to no more than around $700-$800. I like the camcorders that record to the miniDV only because I think it has better quality than recording to a hard drive( not sure if I am correct in my thinking). Do the camera's now record in HD? I would like something that records well in low-light( who doesn't right! ). And a pretty good zoom. I don't care if it can take stills or not.
Any suggestions as to a good camera around this price range would be great. It took me forever to pick the ZR700(not sure I did good on it or not) and was just hoping to get some good advise from this great forum.
Thanks,
Neuz

HDV is the replacement for MiniDV and will record and play your standard def DV tapes as well as operate in high def HDV (MPeg2 TS) format.

Best of the consumer HDV models are the Canon HV20, HV30 and HV40.
http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&sugexp=ldymls&xhr=t&q=canon+hv40&cp=8&bav...d=0CEQQ8wIwAg#

Alternatives include flash ram AVCHD models (~$30/hr for flash media). These would require a much faster computer than the one you have listed.

[neuz]

So is HDV a tape or a memory card or something like that?

[edDV]

So is HDV a tape or a memory card or something like that?

HDV uses MiniDV tape same as your ZR700 and will play the tapes from your ZR700.

HDV uses IEEE-1394 for capture to the computer same as DV.

[Kenjifujima]

HDV and MiniDV is to replace the record and play back standard def DV tapes, and operate in high-definition HDV (MPEG2 TS) format. Runescape Gold

[neuz]

Thanks,
Ok so the HV40 should be the latest version. But why would the HV30 be more expensive? I didn't see any reason it should be.
Does anyone have the HV40 and if so would you recommend it? I am hoping to do some research on it today. It's one of those things that I would like to be able to hold it and see how it feels and how the controls are. Just curious.
Thanks.

[edDV]

Thanks,
Ok so the HV40 should be the latest version. But why would the HV30 be more expensive? I didn't see any reason it should be.
Does anyone have the HV40 and if so would you recommend it? I am hoping to do some research on it today. It's one of those things that I would like to be able to hold it and see how it feels and how the controls are. Just curious.
Thanks.

The HV30 was replaced by the HV40 which has more features.

There is a whole user site devoted to this HV series.
http://www.hv20.com/forum.php

[neuz]

ok, so I had to put off my search for a new camera and am just now getting back to it. Does everyone still recommend HDV over the memory cards as far as quality goes?
Also, is the Canon HV40 probably still the better camera out there to get? I remeber that when I looked before non of my local stores carried the camera so I wasn't able to get to feel the camera. It would be something I would have to order online. Do you still recommend it?
Thanks so much for your help.
Neuz

[edDV]

ok, so I had to put off my search for a new camera and am just now getting back to it. Does everyone still recommend HDV over the memory cards as far as quality goes?

No. HDV was recommended to you because your existing workflow is DV and your computer can't handle AVCHD. HDV is completely compatible with your MiniDV tape collection, AVCHD cams can't access that data. Also AVCHD would require you to buy a new top end i5/i7 computer. HDV allows you to record HD but export to the slow computer as standard def DV so you can continue with your current hardware and software until both can be replaced.

In order to help you more we need to know your budget. An HV40 is available for ~$699. A mid range AVCHD camcorder + new computer will push $2500 plus software. A "best" camcorder will double that investment or more. Yes you will need new software too.

Also, is the Canon HV40 probably still the better camera out there to get? I remeber that when I looked before non of my local stores carried the camera so I wasn't able to get to feel the camera. It would be something I would have to order online. Do you still recommend it?
Thanks so much for your help.
Neuz

The HV40 is an amazing bargain in the HDV format. Remember you can play your existing MiniDV tapes in the HV40. Next up with similar features will be over $2000. First you need to set a budget, describe the types of video you want to shoot.

[turk690]

[QUOTE=edDV;2074840]

HDV uses MiniDV tape same as your ZR700 and will play the tapes from your ZR700.

I will not take that as a given.
The playability of MiniDV tapes recorded on one camcorder in SP mode and played in another is already unpredictable, let alone LP, which is next to impossible.
Tough if neuz has LP tapes from the ZR700 and now needs to play them on the HV40, if that's what he ends up getting.

[edDV]

[QUOTE=turk690;2111098]

HDV uses MiniDV tape same as your ZR700 and will play the tapes from your ZR700.

I will not take that as a given.
The playability of MiniDV tapes recorded on one camcorder in SP mode and played in another is already unpredictable, let alone LP, which is next to impossible.
Tough if neuz has LP tapes from the ZR700 and now needs to play them on the HV40, if that's what he ends up getting.

I agree with you on LP mode but did neuz say his tapes were recorded LP?

It is rare that SP mode has interchangeability problems as has been proven in the broadcast industry. When MiniDV format was introduced this was a great concern. Sony addressed the concern with DVCAM format with extra wide tracks but that was overkill. HDV returned to normal width tracks even for broadcast cams where the expectation is the tape will be edited using a different player.

[neuz]

Thanks for the replies. I have purchased a new computer that has an i5 processor. I think I want to still stick with a budget of around $500-$700+ range. Though I know the great quality of some of the $2000 camera's I think it would cause a divorce in my house hold!

If my memory serves me correctly, I recorded most of my tapes in SP mode, though there may be some that were in LP mode.

In a camera I am looking for great quality and good sound quality. Zoom is important and good indoor vision is important as well.
Does the HV40 cover those?
Thanks so much for all the help.

[edDV]

Thanks for the replies. I have purchased a new computer that has an i5 processor. I think I want to still stick with a budget of around $500-$700+ range. Though I know the great quality of some of the $2000 camera's I think it would cause a divorce in my house hold!

If my memory serves me correctly, I recorded most of my tapes in SP mode, though there may be some that were in LP mode.

In a camera I am looking for great quality and good sound quality. Zoom is important and good indoor vision is important as well.
Does the HV40 cover those?
Thanks so much for all the help.

Please update your computer profile. It directly affects the answers you get.

The i5 allows consideration of the AVCHD format but you will also have to buy or borrow a MiniDV cam to access your old tapes. I suggest you read the camcorder reviews at camcorderinfo.com their current ranking is http://www.camcorderinfo.com/ratings.php. I suggest you stretch your budget a bit and get the Panasonic HDC-TM900. You may be able to find the last year model TM700 in your price range. Lower models usually lack an external mic jack.

For software I suggest Sony Vegas Movie Studio Platinum ($59-$99).

[neuz]

Thanks. I didn't realize my profile still had that information. Sorry about that. I will update immediately.
I do like the looks of that camera. My budget can be stretch a little if need be.

With the Panasonic saving to a memory card will my video quality still be good? I only ask because I had always heard that the best quality was via tapes. But with all these manufactures going to memory cards I didn't know if it was better quality or just more convenient.
I'll start reviewing the reviews about the Panasonic.
thanks so much for your input.
Neuz

[turk690]

It is rare that SP mode has interchangeability problems as has been proven in the broadcast industry. When MiniDV format was introduced this was a great concern. Sony addressed the concern with DVCAM format with extra wide tracks but that was overkill. HDV returned to normal width tracks even for broadcast cams where the expectation is the tape will be edited using a different player.

Back in DV days, I was shooting events in schools, etc. It wasn't for profit and I realized I could spice up the DVD by talking with as many camcorder owners that were there that were willing to follow a loosely pre-rehearsed shooting style and getting their tapes and incorporating them as democratically as possible into a final edit that will make the most number of people the happiest. Not easy, but not impossible, but that's another story.
They all got my point and (grudgingly) shot SP, but out of 10 people with possibly 10 different camcorder brand and model combinations, only about 2 of them would play without a glitch in any single camcorder that I had. My response to this was to gradually amass a variety of consumer camcorders (I was then in 50i land): Sony TRV-9, 22, 48, 52E, Canon MV400i, MVX460, Panasonic NV-DS28, NV-GS230 (3CCD, natch!). These usually covered all bases. Sometimes I had to outright borrow the original camcorder if I couldn't play a wretched tape properly, if that was possible. The Sonys were the most tolerant, the Panasonics next and the Canons would almost always only play what was shot in them.
The most common problem is the tapes would play OK in a different camcorder: video will be there (and capturable), but audio would either be horribly intermittent or downright be muted. It didn't bother me much as well because my audio mainly came from the FOH mixing console (recorded onto CD-R or a VHS hi-fi). But it's so convenient having the original audio as well to properly sync with in NLE that's why it's a always a bummer when I can't get it.
My point is this: in professional circles with camcorders and tape decks to cater with (most likely just one brand/model range), and professional MiniDV tapes to record on, they could probably all go along merrily exchanging SP tapes with one another without missing a beat. Same with a lone consumer who records and plays with just his one single camcorder in SP or LP, and whose MiniDV tape is very highly unlikely to be played on a different camcorder elsewhere (what he doesn't know won't hurt him). But what I went through are none of them, that's why I said the matter of playability of consumer MiniDV tapes amongst different recorders and players, even in SP, is unpredictable at best. Let's not even begin with LP. Clearly, according to my experiences at least, consumer MiniDV wasn't meant for extensive tape-swapping among different camcorder brands and models.
I had a chance to borrow HDV camcorders, which may or may not have playability problems of the kind I experienced with DV, having only at most two models to pit against each other (Sonys both, HC3 and HC7, which properly played HDV recordings made on each other). But HDV introduced another problem: dropouts that lasted longer than a second each (I know it's best to use tape primarily intended for HDV, etc).
Anyway, AVCHD on SD cards soon became the norm for consumer HD, and what a relief it was. Just that I now had to purchase my first Core2Duo machine.

[2Bdecided]

I have six different miniDV camcorders. An in-spec SP tape will happily play on any of them. Something that's out-of-spec will play better on some than others - which is why I have six! A more professional approach would be one adjustable deck.

Cheers,
David.

[neuz]

Wow, thanks! So you are saying that recording to a memory card now, is a good thing versus tapes?

[edDV]

Wow, thanks! So you are saying that recording to a memory card now, is a good thing versus tapes?

Both record digital video and both are erasable. One hour of Pro MiniDV DV tape (13GB) costs $2.15.
http://www.tapestockonline.com/pa63mipqus.html

A 16GB Class 6-10 flash RAM SD card sells for about $30
http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=sd+class+6+card&tag=googhydr-20&index=electronics&hvadid=7725016305&ref=pd_sl_f bfqow5be_b#/ref=sr_nr_p_36_1?rh=n%3A172282%2Ck%3Asd+class+6+ca rd%2Cp_4%3ASanDisk%2Cp_36%3A1253504011&bbn=172282& keywords=sd+class+6+card&ie=UTF8&qid=1317829896&rn id=386442011

[edDV]

dup

[edDV]

It is rare that SP mode has interchangeability problems as has been proven in the broadcast industry. When MiniDV format was introduced this was a great concern. Sony addressed the concern with DVCAM format with extra wide tracks but that was overkill. HDV returned to normal width tracks even for broadcast cams where the expectation is the tape will be edited using a different player.

...
The most common problem is the tapes would play OK in a different camcorder: video will be there (and capturable), but audio would either be horribly intermittent or downright be muted. ...

As long as the picture is there, so is the PCM audio although DV camcorders can be set to record either 16bit/48KHz or 12bit/32KHz. These audio issues were more about the mic and auto gain (AGC) than tape. The same issues would exist with flash RAM camcorders.

[2Bdecided]

...or the camcorder didn't support the "other" audio format - or even just the capture software.

[magillagorilla]

Flash RAM is not the cause of any image quality issues. It's all about the lens, image sensor and image processor. Tape and secure digital cards are just storage media.

I did read about some image quality problems back in the day of standard difinition HDD and flash camcorders. Earlier AVCHD codecs were also reportedly of lesser quality then HDV. Newer AVCHD cams with a decent sensor and lens produce spectacular images.

Tape is a pain in the rear. You have to shuttle it back and forth and transfer it in real time. I guess you could reuse tapes, but who really does that. It's pretty much a no-no to reuse magnetic tape. Tape can get jammed up, crinkles, and does not always play on every "compatible" device.

SD cards are cheap, and although they will eventuall fail, you will get hundreds of write cycles from them. HDDs are cheap, you don't need tape backups.

Some or the mid-tier AVCHD cameras like the Panasonic HDC-TM900 can do 1920x1080 60p in MJPEG and record in 5.1 surround sound. HDV can't do those tricks.

[edDV]

Some or the mid-tier AVCHD cameras like the Panasonic HDC-TM900 can do 1920x1080 60p in MJPEG and record in 5.1 surround sound. HDV can't do those tricks.

The TM900 doesn't do 60p MJPEG. All AVCHD camcorders use long GOP h.264 in HD modes. Some models use MPeg2 in SD mode.

The older HDD and flash SD camcorders had to use extreme MPeg2 compression due to limited disk or flash RAM capacity in those days. The typical picture quality was well below DV due to compression artifacts.

[magillagorilla]

You are right it doesn't do MJPEG, I got it mixed up with another model. Here are the HDC-TM900 specs from camcorderinfo. It does 60p MPEG-4. There are several newer AVCHD camcorders that record outside of AVCHD specifications with alternate codecs and containers to acheive 1080 60p.

1080/60p1920 x 1080 MPEG-4 (original format) 28Mbps 60p HA
1920 x 1080 AVCHD 17Mbps 60i HG
1920 x 1080 AVCHD 13MBps 60i HX
1920 x 1080 AVCHD 9Mbps60i HE
1920 x 1080 AVCHD 5Mbps 60i
iFrame 960 x 540 MPEG-4 28Mbps 60i

[budwzr]

Some or the mid-tier AVCHD cameras like the Panasonic HDC-TM900 can do 1920x1080 60p in MJPEG and record in 5.1 surround sound. HDV can't do those tricks.

Just my opinion, but 5.1 sound would not be a consideration when buying a new camera/camcorder.

Like when buying a vacuum, what you want to look for is a strong motor on a stick, not lights, turn signals, led dirt meters, etc.

Ditto for a camera. The sensor is the most important feature. I learned that the hard way.

[magillagorilla]

The Panasonic HDC-TM700 is teh best bang for the buck. The image performance is on par with the TM900 but its cheaper because it's last years model.

Budwzr, 5.1 surround in definately not on my requirements list. Just sayin, the Panasonic HDC-TM700 has it and HDV can't do it.

[edDV]

The Panasonic HDC-TM700 is teh best bang for the buck. The image performance is on par with the TM900 but its cheaper because it's last years model.

Budwzr, 5.1 surround in definately not on my requirements list. Just sayin, the Panasonic HDC-TM700 has it and HDV can't do it.

HDV does 2ch mpg audio*, AVCHD uses AC3 (most 2.0, some 5.1 off the internal mic only).


* Some higher end HDV models do 4ch mpg audio.