Need Suggestions for a good Camcorder with great sound quality

[techspark]

Hey guys,

I need to buy a new camcorder with good image quality and excellent audio capture quality. Flash/hdd any will do as long as the video and audio capture is good enuf.

I will be using it to record live concerts in my locality. Since they are live concerts there will be heavy music all around with huge speakers surrounding me.

So my first requirement is that the camcorder should be able to pick up clean sound from these speakers around and be able to eradicate noise.

I don mind buying a production mic for this purpose...i just surfed the net and found various types of production mic...please recommend me the type that will be apt for my needs.

I previously had a similar concert in my locality and i tried recording with my phone at 720p..the video turned out decent but the audio sucked(full of haze and noise)...so i hv learnt from my mistake and hence i need a camcorder with very good sound quality to record live music concerts

My budget is anything upto $400-450 at most. I would prefer the one which will have full HD support if possible in the budget.

The camcorder should also have decent battery life...atleast 3 hrs of continous recording.

Higher Zoom and other features are not needed but will be a plus if possible.

This will be my first camcorder and i will be using it for atleast 5 yrs from now.

For info : I'm using a quad core with 4 gigs of ram..so rendering and handling videos wont be a problem..Feel free to suggest any high end model.

Waiting for the replies guys....Thanks

[redwudz]

For your application, an external microphone would be my first choice. Audio overload will be your biggest problem, especially the bass. On a camcorder with an internal microphone, I've used a fabric band aid to cover the microphone to help with overload. Low end HD camcorders may not have external mic connections.

Another problem you may run into is poor lighting. Many newer HD camcorders don't perform well in low light situations.

And I hope you have permission to tape these concerts or security may toss you out.

Others here may be able to give you more specific suggestions.

[techspark]

Thanx For your input.

Can u suggest me an external mic which can handle such high audio load(a link will be appreciated)...i see various types on the internet like lepel, shortgun etc...which one will be suitable here ?

And arent there any decent ones that will do well in low light conditions..? Any camcorder that you know which has a mic in port ?

And ya I have full permission to record them Have close relation with the organizers So no issue here.

[edDV]

Are you tight with the band? If so get the dry (unequalized) feed off their mixer. You can wireless feed this to the cam for sync.

If not, you will need to mic the band same as they do.

Failing that, locate cam in audio sweet spot (center back from stage). A Rode cam mic is a good start.

Explain more your shooting conditions and the type of music.

[edDV]

My budget is anything upto $400-450 at most.

That is for the mic/wireless system?

[techspark]

Thank You For the reply.

Are you tight with the band? If so get the dry (unequalized) feed off their mixer. You can wireless feed this to the cam for sync.

Getting sound feed from them will be difficult....may be possible but i would play safe and have a mic ready in hand.

If not, you will need to mic the band same as they do.

Failing that, locate cam in audio sweet spot (center back from stage). A Rode cam mic is a good start.

Sorry i din't understand this...too technical for me Can u explain it further if you don mind.

Explain more your shooting conditions and the type of music.

There are 2 shooting conditions.

1. A big open ground....dark..night time but not low light as there will lights all around...it will be well lit. Performers will be singing through the mic and playing instruments along and the music will be spread all around the ground through big speakers. I will try finding a place close to a speaker to make the most of the sound.

2. A closed AC room....Size of about a four bedroom hall flat....again the performers will be singing on the mic and the music will be spread accross the room with the help of big speakers outputting heavy music. Light again shouldnt be an issue here as the room will be well lit.


And i would like to have both the cam and mic for $450. Can stretch a bit but would be really difficult.

[edDV]

Will think about it. Key issue is to get the mixer feed so you don't need to buy mics.. Usually the mixer is located in the audio sweet spot back from audience so a short cable feed is possible without wireless.

Does this need to be HD? Is mono oK?

How long is the concert? Including all recording?

[techspark]

I m really sorry for my limited knowledge but i dont get the whole point of mixer feed....google search dint turn up anything useful..can u elaborate please.
I understand what a sound feed is...basically there will be a wire which will take the audio output from the mixing device and feed audio into the camcorder through the audio in port right ?
A mic should do the above function equally good if its close to a big speaker outputting clear sound...right?

Well i would prefer it to be HD but if its not really fitting in the budget then i will be fine with SD...i saw a feature on one of sony camcorders which said dolby 5.1 maker...i know that will be fake HD but i don mind that if it appears to sound close to HD... i just want the sound to be clear...free of noise...haze and circuit overload.

[edDV]

I m really sorry for my limited knowledge but i dont get the whole point of mixer feed....google search dint turn up anything useful..can u elaborate please.
I understand what a sound feed is...basically there will be a wire which will take the audio output from the mixing device and feed audio into the camcorder through the audio in port right ?
A mic should do the above function equally good if its close to a big speaker outputting clear sound...right?

Well i would prefer it to be HD but if its not really fitting in the budget then i will be fine with SD...i saw a feature on one of sony camcorders which said dolby 5.1 maker...i know that will be fake HD but i don mind that if it appears to sound close to HD... i just want the sound to be clear...free of noise...haze and circuit overload.

Cheap mics are poor at reproduction. A direct feed from the mixer is the best quality there is at the event.

I'm getting the feeling you want Ok audio with all the echo and crowd noise, not the best.

The concerts are probably long so flash ram would be too expensive for your budget You still need a new PC for HD.

If you can borrow a fast PC with IEEE-1394 port, try to find a used HDV (tape) format Canon HV20 or Sony HC1 or similar. You should be able to find those on Craigslist or eBay. HDV cams can output SD DV format that your PC can handle while retaining HD on tape.

The problem with SD DV cams is very few have external mic jacks with manual controls. Manual audio level control is a must for acceptable concert audio.

[techspark]

Thanx for the reply.

Cheap mics are poor at reproduction. A direct feed from the mixer is the best quality there is at the event.

I completely agree with you that the mixer feed is the best possible output but i m not certain they will let me use the mixer feed. I need to buy a good quality mic. A good mic should do the job equally good ?

I'm getting the feeling you want Ok audio with all the echo and crowd noise, not the best.

I have decided to increase my budget...only issue now will be that i will have to wait for another 15 days to buy it...but in a way it also helps me to research more So how abt $600(for both mic and camcorder) ?
Please suggest me the ones in this range.

The concerts are probably long so flash ram would be too expensive for your budget You still need a new PC for HD.

Yes the concerts will be long...so i want a camcorder that has battery life to record 3 hrs at a stretch without power supply. I dont think i need a new pc.

Here is my complete Pc Config.

Intel q9650 quad core with clock speed of 3ghz and 12mb l2 cache.
Intel dg45id mobo ( has IEEE-1394a port and ESATA as well) so i guess ports wont be a problem here.
Transcend 2x 2gb ddr2 800mhz ram sticks (dual channel)
Seagate 1 tb sata at 3gbps.
Nvidea 9600gt graphic card (maybe this can help in taking some load off cpu ?)

I want something more recent...dv cams will they be good ? HDD or flash will be better if i m not wrong ?

[2Bdecided]

The problem with SD DV cams is very few have external mic jacks with manual controls. Manual audio level control is a must for acceptable concert audio.

HV20 has external mic input and manual recording level. Also has a manually switchable attenuator for the built-in microphone to reduce its sensitivity when in a very loud environment. This works (I've used it), though I guess it's still possible to overload it. (Can't really do it by shouting straight into the microphone, but your concerts may be louder than that).

A separate recording, with fixed shotgun mics aimed at the speakers from some distance, is how some would do it.

If you think this is going to sound anything like a direct feed from the mixing desk, then think again

Cheers,
David.

[techspark]

HV20 has external mic input and manual recording level. Also has a manually switchable attenuator for the built-in microphone to reduce its sensitivity when in a very loud environment. This works (I've used it), though I guess it's still possible to overload it. (Can't really do it by shouting straight into the microphone, but your concerts may be louder than that).

The hv20 looks a good one...i dont think my concerts will get that loud and i will make sure the mic is fair distance away from the speakers.

Can u suggest me some good shotgun mics ?

If you think this is going to sound anything like a direct feed from the mixing desk, then think again

I know it wont be as good as direct feed but i don mind if its decent enuf.

Btw...do u get the feed in the same port where u attach the mic or are there seperate ports for the mic and feed in ?

[TreeTops]

Ah, but the HV 20 costs over $1200 from Amazon.

[edDV]

HV20 has external mic input and manual recording level. Also has a manually switchable attenuator for the built-in microphone to reduce its sensitivity when in a very loud environment. This works (I've used it), though I guess it's still possible to overload it. (Can't really do it by shouting straight into the microphone, but your concerts may be louder than that).

The hv20 looks a good one...i dont think my concerts will get that loud and i will make sure the mic is fair distance away from the speakers.

Can u suggest me some good shotgun mics ?

If you think this is going to sound anything like a direct feed from the mixing desk, then think again

I know it wont be as good as direct feed but i don mind if its decent enuf.

Btw...do u get the feed in the same port where u attach the mic or are there seperate ports for the mic and feed in ?

As said above, few inexpensive camcorders will have manual audio controls (AGC off*), a peak levels meter and monitor speaker/headphone jack. All are needed for quality audio recording. That is one reason the HV20 works well for this. The stock mic is adequate. Still it lacks balanced XLR inputs needed for pro mics or a mixer feed so you would need to add a Beachtek DXA-2T.
http://www.beachtek.com/dxa2t.html

A cheaper mic alternative that may be adequate is the RODE VideoMic which doesn't need the Beachtek.
http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&sugexp=ldymls&xhr=t&q=rode+videomic&cp=5&...d=0CEoQ8wIwAw#
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BH437S/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_1?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf...FAZ1Z58793D7YE

A more deluxe model.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000I5W7K8/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_2?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf...FAZ1Z58793D7YE

For good audio, you should shoot back from the band speakers about the same distance as speaker separation. That is usually where they put the sound mixer.


* You don't want auto gain control (AGC) pumping while recording music. You switch to manual control and adjust level for peak volume (using peak meter). If the audio mixer boys are good at their job, you won't need to change levels during the concert.

[techspark]

Thanx again for the reply.

Since this is my first camcorder i have very little knowledge about all the technical things that you guys are talking. Please excuse me for that.

Now after reading all the posts and surfing up stuff on google heres my understanding and a few doubts.

1.[Understanding] An external mic is a must. I really liked d Rode videomic and since its only $120..i think it will be my best bet right now.

2.[Suggestion] Now looking at my current budget i only have about $500..can i find a good HD camcorder with mic input for this price ? I can still add another $100 to it but really nothing beyond that.
The hv20 is fine but only used/refurb ones are available on ebay for 500bucks...i want a new one and a more recent one like flash/hdd as said before.

3.[Doubt] Now that i will be using a rode mic...do i still need to take care of the audio controls and keep equalizing while recording or the rode mic will automatically manage ?

4.[need]i will need a headphone jack on the camcorder as when i m recording i need to hear the sound and get an idea how its getting recorded

5. [doubt]Do xlr inputs help a big deal ?

6.[needed]Battery life...need the battery to hold up atleast for 3 hrs at a stretch.

7. [doubt]If i succeed at getting the direct feed from those dj guys...should i put the feed wire in d same port as the mic port or is there a seperate port for the feed in ?

For good audio, you should shoot back from the band speakers about the same distance as speaker separation. That is usually where they put the sound mixer

NOTED...WILL TAKE CARE OF THIS

You don't want auto gain control (AGC) pumping while recording music. You switch to manual control and adjust level for peak volume (using peak meter). If the audio mixer boys are good at their job, you won't need to change levels during the concert.

I'm confused...do i still need to do this even after buying the rode mic...what does this exactly mean....please explain it in layman terms

I appreciate all your time and help so far...looking forward to answers of my various silly questions and the suggestions for d camcorder.

[edDV]

This needs a more detailed response than I can do now. Be back later tonight.

Your budget requires a used HV20. If you have more money, we can talk other options. eBay has "buy it now" options in the $400-499 range. You will get cheaper with bidding skills and patience. I prefer Craigslist because I can test before I buy.

[techspark]

This needs a more detailed response than I can do now. Be back later tonight.

Sure..no probz

Btw, i found this one on net...$463 and has a mic input along with being HD and claiming to perform well in low light conditions. Have a look

http://www.adorama.com/SOHDRCX130BE.html

[edDV]

This needs a more detailed response than I can do now. Be back later tonight.

Sure..no probz

Btw, i found this one on net...$463 and has a mic input along with being HD and claiming to perform well in low light conditions. Have a look

http://www.adorama.com/SOHDRCX130BE.html

You never mentioned being in PAL land.

Before I come back, please explain your audio expertize. Do you understand why you don't want AGC pumping?

How are you going to edit the result? What is the export destination?

[techspark]

This needs a more detailed response than I can do now. Be back later tonight.

Sure..no probz

Btw, i found this one on net...$463 and has a mic input along with being HD and claiming to perform well in low light conditions. Have a look

http://www.adorama.com/SOHDRCX130BE.html

You never mentioned being in PAL land.

I Have a tv that has dual tuner...so pal/ntsc either shouldnt be a problem...my computer can handle both as well.

Before I come back, please explain your audio expertize. Do you understand why you don't want AGC pumping?

No...i really din understand agc or auto manual control that you guys were talking abt earlier...i m a novice and have never handled a camcorder before sio I dont really have an idea about these technical things. Hence..in my last post I had requested answers for my dumb questions.

How are you going to edit the result? What is the export destination?

For now I havent thaught abt it..I have only used movie maker...sony vegas before but only for small editing like adding effects, subtitles, converting etc. I understand that hd files are gona be huge but thats a later thing..i hv pinnacle studio 12 and vegas pro so software wise im fine and hope my computer is capable enuf of handling them. For the time being I will store the videos on my internal and external 1tb hdds..and watch them on my tv thru usb and on d comp....maybe I wil buy a blue ray player and writer later if needed

Swyped from my evo using Tapatalk

[edDV]

This needs a more detailed response than I can do now. Be back later tonight.

Sure..no probz

Btw, i found this one on net...$463 and has a mic input along with being HD and claiming to perform well in low light conditions. Have a look

http://www.adorama.com/SOHDRCX130BE.html

You never mentioned being in PAL land.

I Have a tv that has dual tuner...so pal/ntsc either shouldnt be a problem...my computer can handle both as well.

So this is for you only and you won't be distributing to others? And you will only be watching on your computer, not your TV?

It would help if you at least identified your country and export desires.

Before I come back, please explain your audio expertize. Do you understand why you don't want AGC pumping?

No...i really din understand agc or auto manual control that you guys were talking abt earlier...i m a novice and have never handled a camcorder before sio I dont really have an idea about these technical things. Hence..in my last post I had requested answers for my dumb questions.

You started asking for audio quality as your prime goal so I steered you that way. You seemed to be tight with the performers. Then you seemed to not care about audio quality.

Automatic gain control (AGC) pumps audio levels up and down based on ambient sound level. When the band goes quiet, the noise floor goes up. When their level goes high the AGC attenuates causing a very poor music recording. Therefore, if you care about audio quality, you will want manual set constant peak audio levels set ideally to a sound check, or the first song. I've recommended equipment that can do that in your price range.

Your price range seems to be loose as well which is frustrating to me because the ideal solution for you depends on the price you are willing to pay. That said, next step up from a used HV20 is probably well over $1000. That is assuming you are optimizing for audio quality.

How are you going to edit the result? What is the export destination?

For now I havent thaught abt it..I have only used movie maker...sony vegas before but only for small editing like adding effects, subtitles, converting etc. I understand that hd files are gona be huge but thats a later thing..i hv pinnacle studio 12 and vegas pro so software wise im fine and hope my computer is capable enuf of handling them. For the time being I will store the videos on my internal and external 1tb hdds..and watch them on my tv thru usb and on d comp....maybe I wil buy a blue ray player and writer later if needed

Swyped from my evo using Tapatalk

You have Vegas Pro? Then you have more than you need. You just need to articulate where you want this recording to go. If it is just for you, what is your sound rig?

[techspark]

So this is for you only and you won't be distributing to others? And you will only be watching on your computer, not your TV?

It would help if you at least identified your country and export desires.

No...i wont be distributing the recordings to others. They are only for my personal needs and i will watch them both on the computer and on the tv.

Well, i m from India where the Video Standard is PAL-B but again as i said before i have no issues buying an ntsc cam or buying a cam which is only available/sold in d US.

You started asking for audio quality as your prime goal so I steered you that way. You seemed to be tight with the performers. Then you seemed to not care about audio quality.

Yes audio quality is still my number 1 requirement. Its just that Getting the audio feed from those guys will be an issue. I still care about audio quality...just looking for a setup to fit in d budget.

Automatic gain control (AGC) pumps audio levels up and down based on ambient sound level. When the band goes quiet, the noise floor goes up. When their level goes high the AGC attenuates causing a very poor music recording. Therefore, if you care about audio quality, you will want manual set constant peak audio levels set ideally to a sound check, or the first song. I've recommended equipment that can do that in your price range.

Your price range seems to be loose as well which is frustrating to me because the ideal solution for you depends on the price you are willing to pay. That said, next step up from a used HV20 is probably well over $1000. That is assuming you are optimizing for audio qualit

.

1.Is there no VideoCam out there which has manual controls(atleast a few controls and not the professional ones) under $600 ?
2. Can i buy a decent cam say like the sony hdr cx130 which has audio input and then use something like a rode videomic along with beachtek as suggested earlier by you to manually manage the audio? How much of a compromise will this be on the quality ?

what is your sound rig

You would probably laugh if i tell you my sound rig. For now on the PC..i m using logitech z313 2.1 speakers. I hv sony gnz8d dvd 5.1HT attached to the tv..quite old but good.
I will be most likely upgrading this setup when i buy the blue ray player.

[edDV]

There were only a few consumer camcorders SD or HD made with manual audio controls. It is a feature normally reserved for the prosumer models like the $2000 up Sony VX or Canon GL1/GL2. All the others have AGC on both the internal and external mic inputs and no user control of levels. Also they generally lack audio meters.

Among the models with manual audio level modes that you might find in the used sub $500 range were the

Panasonic PV-GS400 (MiniDV) (Correction the GS500 dropped the audio level control)
Sony HDR-HC1 (HDV) ... later HC models dropped manual exposure and manual audio controls.
Canon HV-20/30/40 (HDV) models. A new HV40 sells in the $650 range in the USA. Not sure about India.

All of these sold for over $1000 new as high end consumer cams with some prosumer features.

In India you will want the PAL version of these models.

Concerning your budget, HDV tapes sell for ~$3/hr online where SD flash ram runs around $30+ per hour. Budget at least $100 for flash ram vs $10 for MiniDV/HDV tape.

[edDV]

2. Can i buy a decent cam say like the sony hdr cx130 which has audio input and then use something like a rode videomic along with beachtek as suggested earlier by you to manually manage the audio? How much of a compromise will this be on the quality ?

what is your sound rig

You would probably laugh if i tell you my sound rig. For now on the PC..i m using logitech z313 2.1 speakers. I hv sony gnz8d dvd 5.1HT attached to the tv..quite old but good.
I will be most likely upgrading this setup when i buy the blue ray player.

The hdr cx130 would have the AGC problem with any mic. The levels problem is called "pumping". It can't be fixed in post.

The Rode Videomic does not require a Beachtek. Low imprdance XLR pro mics would.

The Sony Vegas Pro package is very good for audio to DVD, Blu-Ray and broadcast.

[techspark]

Thanx for the reply.

Just would like to tell you that i m not really keen on getting used camcorders or the old tape types. Memory cards wont be a problem...i just need one card that will go in d cam...record and once the data is transfered to my comp..i will format it and reuse it.

So now should i really get a low end cam with a decent external mic ?

OR

Should i invest more and get the best. I just saw this on the canon india website. Canon legeria HF M300 which i can get for about $750 here.

There is one line in the specifications which says this Manual audio level VR metering & control with adjustment via LCD Will this help to solve the pumping issue. ?

I want it to b VFM and serve me well in the concert scenerio. I would struggle a little now and spend the extra bucks rather then regretting my decision later

Waiting for your suggestions.

[edDV]

I haven't used that generation of camcorder. The quick reviews say it has poor low light performance. You should read all reviews especially expert user reviews.

As for audio, you have the basic info needed to do research. Pumped AGC audio, especially concert audio, is very poor quality but may be adequate for you.

Best audio comes off the mixer of course. Fixed camcorder audio level with peaks set with meters and headphones is next best. Microphones and camera position make a big difference. Have fun.

Should i invest more and get the best. I just saw this on the canon india website. Canon legeria HF M300 which i can get for about $750 here.

For that application, I'd invest in a real prosumer model like the $2,750 JVC GY-HM-100U which I'm saving for, but you need to make your own decision based on funds and commitment.

[techspark]

Just a few questions.

1. Will i see a significant improvement in the canon m300 over sony cx130 with the addition of manual controls as far as the audio goes ? simply is it worth the extra cash ?
2. Should i buy a stereo mic as opposed to the rode videomic which is mono...is there a significant difference in quality with mono vs stereo ?

I'd invest in a real prosumer model like the $2,750 JVC GY-HM-100U which I'm saving for

That looks Awesome !!

Just need your final viewpoint.

If you were in my place and had to get the best under say a $1000(including mic and all accessories and strictly buying a new one) what setup would you go for ???

[edDV]

Just a few questions.

1. Will i see a significant improvement in the canon m300 over sony cx130 with the addition of manual controls as far as the audio goes ?
2. Should i buy a stereo mic as opposed to the rode videomic which is mono...is there a significant difference in quality with mono vs stereo ?

1. I don't know the quality of the m300 audio circuits. I'm concerned because of price point. I'd want to see sophisticated user reviews with comparison to pro or prosumer models. I'd like to hear demos. It seems a bit too good to be true.

2. Mono is targeted at voice capture. A stereo mic will get the L-R sound field. The cams I use have four channel capability. The cam mic gets the L-R stereo sound field, the other two channels are for board stereo mix or two wireless mics.

[edDV]

Just need your final viewpoint.

If you were in my place and had to get the best under say a $1000(including mic and all accessories and strictly buying a new one) what setup would you go for ???

I use the Canon HV20 + Beachtek when I don't want to haul out all the pro gear*. I borrow (trade) the best mic for the event. Failing that I use my Azden WMS or rent a mic.


* This includes harsh environments like snow, beach, desert or just informal travel where there is theft risk.

[techspark]

Mono is targeted at voice capture. A stereo mic will get the L-R sound field. The cams I use have four channel capability. The cam mic gets the L-R stereo sound field, the other two channels are for board stereo mix or two wireless mics.

So basically stereo will be better ?? Both cam state they have a stereo mic input...will it cause problem if i attach a mono mic to a stero mic input ?

Would you buy a $120 mono mic like the videomic or would you buy a $65 stereo mic from Audio-Technica if recording in a concert like scenario is concerned ?

Now i have to check out reviews of both canon m300 and cx130 including checking out the actual mts files and various user feedbacks. Since both of them are available locally here...i would be personally going to the mall and checking them out. Apparanetly there are some reviews at amazon which say that the cx130 lacks a mic input port....but the sony website and manual clearly *state* that there is a mic port.

[edDV]

Mono is targeted at voice capture. A stereo mic will get the L-R sound field. The cams I use have four channel capability. The cam mic gets the L-R stereo sound field, the other two channels are for board stereo mix or two wireless mics.

So basically stereo will be better ?? Both cam state they have a stereo mic input...will it cause problem if i attach a mono mic to a stero mic input ?

Would you buy a $120 mono mic like the videomic or would you buy a $65 stereo mic from Audio-Technica if recording in a concert like scenario is concerned ?

Now i have to check out reviews of both canon m300 and cx130 including checking out the actual mts files and various user feedbacks. Since both of them are available locally here...i would be personally going to the mall and checking them out. Apparanetly there are some reviews at amazon which say that the cx130 lacks a mic input port....but the sony website and manual clearly *state* that there is a mic port.

Yes for stereo the Audio Technica or Azden SMX-10 are the less expensive alternatives to the superior Rode SVM. These are all camcorder mics so don't require the Beachtek.

Still, I encourage you to opt for manual audio gain controls over AGC if you care about sound quality.