Chip Choices and Raid Arrays

[Sckinhunter]

Couple of questions that I think I know the answers to but would appreciate feedback from others. I am looking at a new system and have choice between the following:

1. Which of the following options is the better - Dual Intel® QuadCore Xeon™ E5506 Processors or the Intel 6-Core i7-970 CPU 3.2GHz 6.4GT/s 130W 12M.

I would think the Xeon would be better but I am not an expert on chip performance.

2. There are numerous Xeon chips with varying numbers of cores, threads, speed and cache. Are the higher numbers the better choice in regards to video capture, editing and rendering or is there some type of tradeoffs between the choices?

3. Also, saw an article stating that “We do NOT recommend setting up your computer with a single RAID 0 array as your boot drive and video storage. This will actually give you poor performance for video editing. The constant reading and writing of small bits of data to the boot drive works against the need to read & write large continuous video files. Add in the overhead of the RAID controller and you get potential bottlenecks. For video editing you always want to have a dedicated drive or RAID array for your video files.” I have a couple of Raptor Drives (10,000 RPM) that make for an extremely fast system. I had intended to use my Raid 0 array to write the captured video to a second non-Raid drive (1TB, 7200) to archive and eventually work with the files. Should there be any issues doing this?

Thanks!!!

[edDV]

You have this upside down. First explain what this computer is for.

Is it a server for processing financial transactions for a bank?

If for video editing, what software and why do you need uncompressed?

[Sckinhunter]

I am getting ready to capture, edit and render those hundreds of 8mm, VHS videos and some HD video that I have. Plan to archive it like I did my 10,000 plus photos (one at time using high end scanner) that took a few years. For now I could not afford a real high end software and got Sony Vegas Movie Studio HD Platinum 10 to work with. Questions are oriented towards new computer as my current one is not as capable as I would like it to be and plan to get a new one using some of the hardware I mentioned. Have spent quite a few days looking over video cards as well and leaning towards Quadro 2000 or 4000 for my build but have noted after a lot of reading that the CPU and RAM are much more important towards building a very capable system to accomplish what I want to do.

[Cornucopia]

Most video systems I have worked with are set up with a separate boot drive(s) and video drive(s).

For most editing workflows, the boot drive gets regular activity, but it's all small data stuff that's asynchronous, so a 10k raptor should be sufficient. For increased fault-tolerance, you could do a RAID1, or a RAID 10 but that's usually overkill on a video workstation (though important on a server).

For the actual video data, it just depends on the kind of content:
For DV or HDV (or similar bitrate stuff), any single 7200rpm or better Sata drive would be fine.
For HD, a 2-disk RAID 0 array really makes a difference. But this isn't fault tolerant. At my former job it was felt (not always by me) that safer setups were unnecessary when you could redigitize/reingest onto new drives from the master tapes/files more quickly than fixing a failed system.
For Uncompressed SD or HD, or 2k/4k system, a 2-disk RAID 0 system is a must, and I'd say a 4disk RAID 0 or an 8disk RAID 10 would be more likely. I no longer recommend RAID 5 or 6 because of the higher possibility of failure with HUGE drives (which are SOP in video).

AFA CPUs, the more complicated the codec, the faster & greater #s the better (although you can get around this a bit with CUDA/GPA coding accelleration).

Scott

[edDV]

It usually comes down to budget trade-off. The Quadros are nice for advanced effects rendering assist but I'd drop down to a GeForce GTX in favor of more CPU power for general video editing.

Analog 8mm or VHS video capture requires players in good working order plus TBC for a quality result. This is more important than spending more on computer hardware. Don't forget a quality video monitor for quality evaluation. A waveform monitor is a great addition to maintain system calibration.

[Sckinhunter]

Appreciate everyone's inputs.

I was considering the GeForce GTX 560 Ti (or even the 580) but is the Quadro a better bet when it comes down to my primary goal of archiving (at the highest quality possible) and editing my video? Also, will it make any difference in the choice of video cards capabilities (such as NVIDIA CUDA) when I will be using the Sony Vegas software I have chosen? Wish I could get the Pro version but I don't think I really need all that capability and I am not an expert by any means at using the Pro version at this point.


Plan to get a PANASONIC AG-1970 S-VHS VCR - 1970P VIDEO EDITING VCR as there are a few of them out there for very resonable prices. Do you know off-hand what others might be available for a reasonable (or even unreasonable) price just so I know what my other options are?

[edDV]

Appreciate everyone's inputs.

I was considering the GeForce GTX 560 Ti (or even the 580) but is the Quadro a better bet when it comes down to my primary goal of archiving (at the highest quality possible) and editing my video? Also, will it make any difference in the choice of video cards capabilities (such as NVIDIA CUDA) when I will be using the Sony Vegas software I have chosen? Wish I could get the Pro version but I don't think I really need all that capability and I am not an expert by any means at using the Pro version at this point.


Plan to get a PANASONIC AG-1970 S-VHS VCR - 1970P VIDEO EDITING VCR as there are a few of them out there for very resonable prices. Do you know off-hand what others might be available for a reasonable (or even unreasonable) price just so I know what my other options are?

Check lordsmurf's posts on decks and TBC.

For video editing, you don't need a fancy display card. Even many of the low cards support HD decode assist. At a minimum get "Purevideo HD" rating. Game rendering modes are irrelevant. "Cuda" GPU acceleration is in early stages and won't apply to what you are doing. Future versions of the software will use this. I'd recommend you get a lower range card for now that has analog (composite, S-Video, analog component) outputs. New cards are dropping the analog output. Look at a 9800GT or equivalent GTX. Then in the future upgrade to the right Cuda card to match the software requirement. Figure display cards have a two year life if you want to chase cutting edge.

[RabidDog]

Or even get two displays and enough grunt to drive them both. An SSD for booting your OS. Mobo with 6gbs SATA interface and drives that are also 6gbs SATA capable. SSD's all round if you can afford it. 2tbx 4 if you cant. I wouldn't bother AT ALL with xeon's they are for servers and thus priced accordingly, a mid to high range intel/AMD chip, about £230, the savings can pay for

[deadrats]

@Sckinhunter

i consider both choices you are mulling over to be complete waste of money, unless you are a pro that makes money with his computer, such as a software developer that compiles massive projects on a regular basis.

the i7 970 costs $600, a good supporting motherboard costs about $200-$300 and 9 gigs of triple channel ddr3 costs about $100.

each e5506 costs about $230 ($460 total), a workstation class board will cost at least $300 (a good supermicro can cost up to $500) and you will need ECC ram (count on spending a couple of hundred bucks).

in addition you will need a good workstation class power supply (easily a couple of hundred).

the quadro 2000 is about $450 and the 4000 is about $700.

that works out to close to $2000 (with tax) and we still haven't addressed the hardware you will need to actually digitize your 8mm and vhs sources.

i would personally look to spend as little as possible and get the maximum performance and your usage model screams Quick Sync to me. i would look into the various apps that support quick sync, such as cyberlink's software, corel's or arcsoft and buy a nice, cheap core i3 2100 ($100), a decent asus or gigabyte 1155 mb ($100) and 8 gigs ddr3 ($80), look into some of pinnacle's capture hardware for actually digitizing your sources and donate the rest of the money i would have spent on that monstrosity you originally wanted to build to a local orphanage, just to make myself feel as if i made a small difference in some poor kids life.

but that's just me.

[Sckinhunter]

Off the beaten path lately and just catching up:

1. Sounds like the Xeons are not what I need.
2. How much faster would a SSD (270mb read/write) be than a Raid array with 2 10,000 rpm raptors.

Sort of feel like I am chasing my tail here but all things considered what is my best choice for capturing, archiving and editing a few hundred tapes in VHS, 8mm, and AVCHD formats? Have the following two choices:

Current Software/Hardware:
- Sony Vegas Movie Studio HD Platinum 10
- Canopus Thomson ADVC110 digital video converter
- PANASONIC AG-1970 S-VHS VCR - 1970P VIDEO EDITING VCR
- Sony Handycam DCR TRV460 - camcorder - Digital8 with USB streaming
- Sony HDR-SR11 Handycam (AVCHD format)
- Firewire card on current system

Current Computer System
- ASUS M2N MX Motherboard
- AMD Athlon 64 X2 Dual Core Processor 5800
- 2 Raptor 10,000rpm hard drives set up in striped array
- Radeon X1300/X1550 Series video card with 512MB memory
- SoundMAX Integrated Digital HD Audio
- Memory (RAM) 2.0GB 433mhz
- Lightscribe 18X DVDRW ATA
- Windows 7 Pro 32 bit

Considering the following upgrades to my existing System
- Western Digital 450 GB VelociRaptor SATA 10,000 RPM 32 MB Cache (archiving drive although need to consider a larger drive or raid array)
- EVGA nVidia GeForce GTX560 Ti FPB 1 GB DDR5 PCI-Express Video Card
- Corsair Lifetime Series Pro 750W Power Supply Unit (would need for new video card)

Total Cost - $525 approx

Second Computer Choice
PolyStation X5800A http://www.polywell.com/us/workstations/PolyStationX5800A.asp#onlineconfigurator
Total Cost - $1955 base price although I would probably go with the more capable processor, more Ram, a SSD if that is a better choice, and I remain in a real quandary on deciding what is the right video card. That would push the cost to $2600 approx.

Final Note/Question (UNLIKELY)
I have been informed on this forum that my current system is capable enough but the upgrades would ensure I have enough horsepower to do what I want to do in a quick and efficient manner to capture, archive and eventually edit my data. Want the best quality that I can get based on current two choices as I want this data stored for the long term (geneaology buff). Money is moderate factor and don’t want to spend it on something I don’t need. I am concerned about the lack of RAM in my current system and cannot add any more nor any that is faster. If the choice is simply the upgrade to my current system am I going with the right video card or is there a better choice for what I want to do, such as a Quadro 2000? I am not a gamer.

[rallynavvie]

Soooo....
Since the system you have already is sufficient for what you are asking to do then you might be better off spending the money on your peripheral equipment for capture. It seems like you have a decent list there short of good VTR with a FireWire interface (that would replace most of that gear). You'll also want some large HDDs and backup drives ready to archive your films. No more memory and no need for a better video card.

Your chip will hinder the speed at which you can encode, but here's the neat thing: you don't need to be at your computer to encode. With good encoding software you can queue your encoding jobs and run them when your system would be idle, like overnight while you sleep or while you're away at work. The caveat to this is to ensure that your system stays cool otherwise you might overheat it during those long encoding sessions and not be around to notice it. There is information elsewhere on this site (and others) that deal with proper cooling so I won't get any further into it here. You don't really need to invest tons in faster chips if you're smart about how you utilize your time on the workstation. You can even queue captures with a good VTR, but likely that's where you'll spend your active computer use and leave the encoding to idle time.

I used to spend a few hours a night setting up capture points on my digital VTR and then editing to what I wanted for a final product, then set up the capture/encoding job to run overnight and while I was at work the next day. Even back then I'd usually return home to a completed MiniDV or DVCAM project.

[Sckinhunter]

rallynavie,
Thanks for the reply and not sure about the acronym “good VTR with a firewire.” Searches revealed video tape recorder but not sure if that is what you are referring to. Have some software with my MB that will let me know what the temp is and your process is what I intended to more or less do so I don’t spend all my time on the computer and away from family (have a 17-year old going on 34 graduating this year that is really trying my patience). I have all these tapes and want to mainly archive them for now and edit/burn later but want to assure I am archiving them at a high a quality for editing work later. Busy perusing the forum (cutting and pasting items and other web sites such as http://www.digitalfaq.com/) to refine what I do. Made an intitial shot at this about a year or so ago with the 8mm tapes and ran into the issue of video out of synch with the audio and have learned about a few tools to fix that already from the forum. As for the video card, will a more capable card result in better archiving capabilities and later editing abilities? Already saw a lot of comments regarding how hot the GTX series cards are and could work with the cooling issue as I start with the first few sessions and maybe some initial editing sessions to see how what I am saving is what I need for future work and to make sure I am not archiving data that could have been improved upon. Considered the VelociRaptor drive for archiving although I wanted one larger than 450gb but have to work within the budget. Still considering a raid array for archiving giving me more storage although have had some failures in the past with Raid arrays and the last thing I will want is to lose whatever data I have captured and believe that would be less likely with a single drive but will have to see how much that taxes my computer system and if it works well enough. Again, thanks for the input and would still appreciate comments/suggestions from others on this thread.

[rallynavvie]

I still don't know why you're talking about the upgraded video card. Video cards have hardware to accelerate 3D graphics like games and UI elements/effects (like Windows Aero effects). Video is a 2D image. I probably have a 6-year old video card that can still be easily used for video capture, editing, and encoding. You'd want a more recent card (last few years) to work with HD source but otherwise the video card does little to assist video work (despite its name).

High-RPM drives (like WD Raptors) are meant for database work, not archival. You want high-capacity drives for archival. If you want to spend a little more you can get WD RE drives but I think just their Black series is probably fine. Someone once mentioned that lower-RPM drives are better for archival because their lower rotational speed puts less stress on components and generates less heat resulting in longer MTBF. I just use an external SATA dock and whatever 1-2TB HDDs are on sale at the time for backups. High RPM drives provide faster seek/access times, they don't make large files transfer any faster. This makes them idea for quickly accessing random spots in large database files but doesn't help much for linear work such as video.

I would also drop any mention of RAID. While it's nice to have a big array to work on for its sustained I/O speeds it isn't necessary. Some of the high-density drives (2TB) have some pretty crazy I/O speeds without RAID and are more than adequate for video work. RAID also adds some hardware complexity in that if you don't spend money on a good controller you're likely steering for trouble. Most onboard controllers are rubbish, even if they use branded controller chips. The only thing I would consider RAID for in your situation is to run mirrors (RAID 1) on your archival drive, but only if you're super-critical about having backups of your HDDs. A RAID 1 array with two 1TB drives will appear as one 1TB drive in Windows. When you write to it the information is actually written to both simultaneously. That means if one of those drives should fail the other should still work.

When I did a lot of video capture/conversion work I borrowed a Sony VTR from a friend at a local TV station. It could accept MiniDV and DVCAM tapes and had an add-on deck that supported VHS/SVHS. It replaces your video camera for tape playback which is nice since the transport on your DV camera isn't as robust as that of a VTR. VTRs are made for constant seeking and capture. The one I had also supported TBC for analog sources so I got near-perfect capture of audio and video in synch. They are fantastic machines to have but they cost thousands of dollars. If you can rent/borrow one I'd recommend it because they're really great to have when working with a lot of tapes. Just make sure it supports the tape formats you're using. I know they work with Premier Pro just fine but they should also work with Vegas.

[Sckinhunter]

rallynavie,
Again, thanks for another reply and your answers do clear up a few questions I have had (new video card is not necessary). I will end up buying a new 1TB Black series to conserve cash and intend to use it in a removable tray like this one from Polywell (http://www.polywell.com/us/storage/HDRMK-ISA1T5-SA.asp) for archiving my data. As for comments on Raid do you see any issues with continuing to use my Raid 0 drive with the two Raptors I currently have? I would think their speed would help with the initial capture process as well as the editing later and they are both the 60gb versions, not massive hard drives. Will make initial efforts to capture video using my 8mm Handicam for now as the VTR is out of my price range and see how well that works. Will have to look around to see if anyone has one I can borrow though if that doesn’t work out. Good to have friends with really expensive equipment that trust you enough to loan it out!