Problem burning subtitles and movie to DVD with Toast

[Akominatus]

I use Toast Titanium (both v.9 and v.10) to burn .avi movies to DVD . Usually, once processed through Perian, the associated .srt subtitles file carries over, even though Toast refuses to let it burned onto the disk. However, in about one in eight or so cases, the subtitles do not transfer to (or appear on) the DVD, even though they are there when the movie is played on the Mac. This seems to be completely random, and I have not found a way around it - if the subs don't burn the first time, they never will, no matter how often you try. Is there an reason for this, and any way around it?

[Using an iMac 2.66 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo running Mac OSX 10.5.8]

[rumplestiltskin]

See if Submerge's ability to "Save" a ".mov" with a subtitle track will produce a file with the subtitle in it that Toast will see. This is not a transcode but the original video with the subtitle track overlaid. I use Submerge and can recommend it highly.

[Case]

Does QuickTime Player with Perian pick up on the .srt file when playing the AVI -- for the files that Toast doesn't show subtitles for? My thought is that both QuickTime Player and Toast should behave the same in this regard.

Can you upload (attach) a sample .srt file that doesn't work, for examination? There must be something about the file that causes it to be refused. If we find what that is, we can perhaps suggest a fix.

[Akominatus]

Thanks for the responses. Here is an example of the kind of thing I mean. Both these files have their associated .srt files. After burning, "Brother" displays no subtitles; "Robin Hood" does. I am attaching, as suggested, the .srt file for "Brother".

One more point: following up a suggestion from an earlier thread, I opened the Brother .avi file in Quicktime Pro, saved it as a .mov file and then burned that to DVD; the subtitles now appear correctly, but I believe there has been an overall loss of quality. But even if that offers a kind of work around, I'm still intensely curious as to the reason for these occasional, unexplained failures.

[rumplestiltskin]

{snip}One more point: following up a suggestion from an earlier thread, I opened the Brother .avi file in Quicktime Pro, saved it as a .mov file and then burned that to DVD; the subtitles now appear correctly, but I believe there has been an overall loss of quality. But even if that offers a kind of work around, I'm still intensely curious as to the reason for these occasional, unexplained failures.

Did you "save" or "export"? If the former, you should have seen no loss of quality because such a "save" only alters the container but does no transcoding.

Have you tried Submerge? You may alter the size, font, style, and background of the subtitles.

[Akominatus]

Have you tried Submerge? You may alter the size, font, style, and background of the subtitles.

Never heard of it before, but it certainly looks interesting. I'll definitely be trying it out next. Thanks for the suggestion!

[Akominatus]

OK, this gets more baffling by the minute. The top image is from a .mov file produced by running the original .avi file plus the associated .srt file through Perian and Quick Time and saving as a .mov file. When the new file was burned to disk using Toast, the subtitles failed to appear, unlike the example mentioned in my earlier post, above. Go figure...

The bottom image is from a different .mov file, this time produced using Submerge, hence the different font. Unfortunately, this one also failed to work after burning.

So there seems to be an entirely random effect at work here: some .avi files keep their subs after burning, some .mov files do so as well, and others simply don't. Does this suggest that the problem lies with some quirk of Toast Titanium? Once again, in case anyone can suggest anything, I'm attaching the relevant .srt file.

[rumplestiltskin]

When you use Perian to include subtitles, its ability to do so depends on the app you're using; QT Player - yes; Handbrake - no. Toast - not on my Mac.

Toast also doesn't see the subtitle track (when you use Submerge and "save as" a .mov with subtitle track). However, if you don't mind the extra time (and a bit of transcoding), export from QT Player (or, faster still, export from Submerge) to embed the subtitle into the video track. Now any app capable to authoring a DVD will see the subs. If you use a high-enough bitrate during the export phase (or, perhaps, use the AIC codec), you shouldn't see any degradation of the quality.

Is there a reason why you need to burn to DVDs? Why not use a media player like the WD or AppleTV?

[rumplestiltskin]

Did you "choose" a subtitle and then let it render (in Submerge) before saving as a ".mov"? Or did you just let Perian produce the subtitle? If the latter, then the ".mov" you saved from Submerge doesn't contain a subtitle. You need to either rename of move the subtitle file out of the same folder as the video (so Perian won't do its thing) and then manually select the subtitle (using the "choose" button) in Submerge; then Submerge will render the titles. Then do the export to a codec that will preserve the quality. At that point the subtitles are truly embedded (burned) into the video track and Toast should have no problem authoring.

OK, this gets more baffling by the minute. The top image is from a .mov file produced by running the original .avi file plus the associated .srt file through Perian and Quick Time and saving as a .mov file. When the new file was burned to disk using Toast, the subtitles failed to appear, unlike the example mentioned in my earlier post, above. Go figure...

The bottom image is from a different .mov file, this time produced using Submerge, hence the different font. Unfortunately, this one also failed to work after burning.

So there seems to be an entirely random effect at work here: some .avi files keep their subs after burning, some .mov files do so as well, and others simply don't. Does this suggest that the problem lies with some quirk of Toast Titanium? Once again, in case anyone can suggest anything, I'm attaching the relevant .srt file.

[Akominatus]

rumplestiltskin, thanks for your continued interest and advice.

OK, I made both the errors you guessed at when using Submerge for the first time (though in my defense, I would add that the documentation is execrable): I hadn't renamed the subtitle file, and I "saved" rather than exported the rendered file. I am now repeating the exercise, though I was a bit puzzled as to what to export to; I finally chose Quick Time as the most familiar format, though that may have been a mistake, as it exported 8% of the file in two minutes and then ground down to a speed of just 14 fps, so I guess it's going to be an overnight job (the frame rate just keeps going down and down).

No problem if it turns out to work, but would you have recommended another format? You mentioned "using a high-enough bitrate during the export phase", but Submerge doesn't seem to give you the option - just a short menu of formats, unless I'm missing something.

As to why I am burning to disk - I spend enough time in front of the computer screen than when I relax, I prefer to do it away from my desk and watch a movie on the living room TV!

[rumplestiltskin]

Submerge permits you to do a "custom" export (using the settings QT Pro Player would otherwise provide). First get the subtitles rendered (changing size, font, style and background as you wish), then select "Export" from the File menu and, in the ensuing dialog, select "QuickTime Movie", then, in the settings, select Apple Intermediate Codec for the video and Apple Lossless for the audio. You'll end up with a huge file but, as you're eventually going to DVD, you'll toss this "intermediate" file after Toast finishes converting and authoring it. The AIC/mov file will be the same quality as your original but will have the subtitles burned into the video track. (I have more tips about Submerge so let me know if the above process works for you and I can post some of them.)

As for wanting to sit in front of your TV to watch your movies, well, so do I and that's why I have a Western Digital TV Media Player (not the mini nor the "Live" versions). When I export to H264 (for AppleTV, for example), the resulting video may be dropped into an external hard drive and plugged into the WD player where it plays just fine. I also have an original AppleTV (with the internal hard drive) and I can push the files (or stream them) to the AppleTV from my iMac. Both devices work great. The AppleTV is connected to my 720p HDTV via HDMI while the WD player is connected via composite (red/white/yellow) cables to my old SD Toshiba set.

I haven't burned a DVD for my use in over three years.

[Akominatus]

Well, that last bit seems to have done the trick. Setting the Apple codecs for video and audio produced a huge intermediate file of about 15GB, but the time exporting shrank from 15 hours to just over two, and it all burned very nicely onto a normal DVD, after which I dumped the exported file. Subtitles came through with no problems. Many thanks, rumplestiltskin, looks as though this will be the way to go from now on.

[rumplestiltskin]

Well, that last bit seems to have done the trick. Setting the Apple codecs for video and audio produced a huge intermediate file of about 15GB, but the time exporting shrank from 15 hours to just over two, and it all burned very nicely onto a normal DVD, after which I dumped the exported file. Subtitles came through with no problems. Many thanks, rumplestiltskin, looks as though this will be the way to go from now on.

Ah! I'm pleased.

One cool feature of Submerge is the ability to force the frame to 16:9. Let's say you have an extremely wide video; if you force it to 16:9, then it "letterboxes" it. Add the subtitle track and part of the subtitles are now off the video and into the black area. Save as (not export) as a QuickTime movie, then open that file in QT Player Pro. Do a "command-J" and you can modify the placement of the video track (remove the padding at the top). That moves the video track to the top of the frame and leaves the subtitles totally in the black area at the bottom. Save the file. Now open that file back in Submerge and export it to the AIC file. Do the Toast authoring. Now your DVD shows the subtitles at the bottom without impinging upon the actually movie.

No, I don't work for Bitfield (the Submerge developer) but I've found this app to be extremely helpful. For example: I transcode foreign films and add the subtitles (huge) at the bottom for my dad who is deaf. He can watch the movies on his iPad and have the huge subtitles at the bottom of the frame not interfering with the video.

[Boothington]

Rumplestiltskin - you clearly know your way around Submerge and Toast, and I am wondering if you could help me with an aspect ratio problem?

I've been experimenting with Submerge to make mov files, but they are coming out a bit squashed. The original avi file is 16:9. Submerge is giving me mov files of an image which is squashed so that a vertical figure is elongated, and there is some empty black space to the left and right of the image.

I thought that I might be able to get Toast to restore the proper width when encoding the mov to DVD format, but it's producing discs that are similarly squashed. What Submerge settings should I be using to preserve the proper aspect ratio and avoid squashing of my films?

I could go into more details, but you may already know what I mean. I'm currently following the advice you gave above, and making an intermediate codec with lossless audio, to see if that will do the trick, but any advice you could give me would be hugely appreciated.

[rumplestiltskin]

Rumplestiltskin - you clearly know your way around Submerge and Toast, and I am wondering if you could help me with an aspect ratio problem?

I've been experimenting with Submerge to make mov files, but they are coming out a bit squashed. The original avi file is 16:9. Submerge is giving me mov files of an image which is squashed so that a vertical figure is elongated, and there is some empty black space to the left and right of the image.

I thought that I might be able to get Toast to restore the proper width when encoding the mov to DVD format, but it's producing discs that are similarly squashed. What Submerge settings should I be using to preserve the proper aspect ratio and avoid squashing of my films?

I could go into more details, but you may already know what I mean. I'm currently following the advice you gave above, and making an intermediate codec with lossless audio, to see if that will do the trick, but any advice you could give me would be hugely appreciated.

Submerge won't alter the proportions of the frame; it just adds black space top/bottom or left/right. The easiest way to fix your problem (and it will require re-encoding) is:

1. Determine what the correct aspect ratio is in pixels (at the current height, it should be "x" pixels wide -or- at the current width, it should be "X" pixels tall).
2. Once you have noted the #'s you want, open the video in MPEG Streamclip.
3. Select "Export to MPEG-4"
4. Choose the "Frame Size" (in this case, probably "Other:" and fill in the desired #'s).
5. Limit Data Rate: Use whatever the original AVI is.
6. Sound: No higher than 160 -or- the original bitrate, whichever is lower.
7. Leave the Frame Rate as is.
8. The AVI probably isn't interlaced; deselect Interlaced Scaling.
9. As long as you don't have any extra black space around the frame you may leave Cropping alone.
10. If the audio is low, click "Adjustments" and check Automatic Volume Control.

That's it. "Make MP4" and wait until it's done. Do note that MPEG Streamclip doesn't do anything with subtitles. If you need those, let me know and we can try another path.

[Boothington]

Thank you very much for your reply. I do need subtitles though, which is why I've been using Submerge - to merge together an avi file with the relevant srt file to produce a mov file with subtitles that Toast can burn as a DVD. The aspect ratio issue - Submerge's slight distortion of the image as I described above - is a puzzle I'm having trouble solving.

[rumplestiltskin]

Thank you very much for your reply. I do need subtitles though, which is why I've been using Submerge - to merge together an avi file with the relevant srt file to produce a mov file with subtitles that Toast can burn as a DVD. The aspect ratio issue - Submerge's slight distortion of the image as I described above - is a puzzle I'm having trouble solving.

Is it only Submerge that is displaying the aspect ratio problem or does it also show in QuickTime Player? If the latter, then the problem may be the anamorphic flag is incorrectly set (or missing as the original ripper failed to create the file properly). I'm not sure whether this may be fixed with a simple tweak of the metadata.

If I had such a file (bad aspect ratio) and a good subtitle (.srt) file, here's what I'd do:
1. Run the video through Handbrake at 50% more bitrate than the original file (to not lose quality). You may set the video size you want (so you may correct the aspect ratio).
2. Run the converted (corrected) video through Submerge with your ".srt" file.

Now, your earlier posts seem to indicate you want to eventually get to a DVD with embedded subtitles? Am I reading you right? What device will be playing the finished movie?

[Boothington]

The original avi file is in the correct aspect ratio. The subtitled mov file that I've created using Submerge plays in Quicktime in the right aspect ratio and undistorted. Submerge has added extra empty space to the left and right of the image, which is not ideal, but for now I am prepared to tolerate that. But played in VLC or encoded as a DVD in Toast, the image is squashed!

You read me right. A DVD with embedded subtitles is my ultimate goal. Well, embedded or otherwise - any kind of subtitles really. I'm not sure about what more up-to-date versions are like, but my version of Toast just can't do anything with separate subtitles files.

BREAKING NEWS:
The intermediate codec that I created, following the advice you had given to Akominatus above, has worked in Toast to produce a DVD image that is not distorted. There is a small extra amount of empty black space to the left and right of the image, and it's hard for me to tell whether I've used the optimum settings for avoiding loss of quality, but this is ok for now.

Now that you know what I'm trying to do, if you do have any tips on the ideal settings I should be using, I'd be really interested to hear them.

But basically the problem is solved, thanks to your expertise. I really appreciate your taking the time to help. Thank you.

[Boothington]

Hello again... I'm aware this is slightly off-topic, but I wondered if you had ever encountered problems when opening certain avi files in Submerge? There is one particular avi file, which plays fine in VLC and Quicktime etc, but which I cannot get Submerge to work with. Every time I try to open it in Submerge the program stops responding and I am forced to 'force quit.' So I wondered if you knew of any particular file properties that Submerge is known to find problematic? And if you could think of any way I could get round this problem?

[rumplestiltskin]

Hello again... I'm aware this is slightly off-topic, but I wondered if you had ever encountered problems when opening certain avi files in Submerge? There is one particular avi file, which plays fine in VLC and Quicktime etc, but which I cannot get Submerge to work with. Every time I try to open it in Submerge the program stops responding and I am forced to 'force quit.' So I wondered if you knew of any particular file properties that Submerge is known to find problematic? And if you could think of any way I could get round this problem?

If you'd run the file through VideoSpec or MediaInfo and post the results here, I'm sure there are folks who could spot the offending detail.

[rumplestiltskin]

The original avi file is in the correct aspect ratio. The subtitled mov file that I've created using Submerge plays in Quicktime in the right aspect ratio and undistorted. Submerge has added extra empty space to the left and right of the image, which is not ideal, but for now I am prepared to tolerate that. But played in VLC or encoded as a DVD in Toast, the image is squashed!

You read me right. A DVD with embedded subtitles is my ultimate goal. Well, embedded or otherwise - any kind of subtitles really. I'm not sure about what more up-to-date versions are like, but my version of Toast just can't do anything with separate subtitles files.

BREAKING NEWS:
The intermediate codec that I created, following the advice you had given to Akominatus above, has worked in Toast to produce a DVD image that is not distorted. There is a small extra amount of empty black space to the left and right of the image, and it's hard for me to tell whether I've used the optimum settings for avoiding loss of quality, but this is ok for now.

Now that you know what I'm trying to do, if you do have any tips on the ideal settings I should be using, I'd be really interested to hear them.

But basically the problem is solved, thanks to your expertise. I really appreciate your taking the time to help. Thank you.

Can you post a portion of the file where I could DL it? I'd be happy to take a look.

[Boothington]

Here is the VideoSpec report on the .avi file that Submerge is refusing to work with:

***** Analyzed File Results *****

*** General Parameters ***
- Name: La Souriante Madame Beudet.avi
- Container: AVI - Audio Video Interleaved
- Size: 265.29 MB
- Duration: 38mn 12s
- Bitrate: 925 Kbps

*** Video Track Parameters ***
- Format: MPEG-4 XviD video
- Bitrate: Max.: Undefined / Average: 241 Kbps / Min.: Undefined
- Frame rate (fps): Max.: Undefined / Average: 25.000 / Min.: Undefined
- Encoding profile: Undefined
- Width (Pixel number): 640*460
- Pixel Aspect Ratio: 1:1
- Display Aspect Ratio: 32:23
- Interlacing: Undefined

*** First Audio Track Parameters ***
- Format: Mpeg-1 layer 3 (mp3)
- Bitrate: 128 Kbps
- Resolution: Undefined
- Profile: Layer 3
- Channel(s): 2 (stereo)
- Position: Undefined

*** Miscellaneous ***
- Subtitle(s): No Subtitle
- Album: Undefined
- Performer: Undefined
- Genre: Undefined
- Encoded date: Undefined
- Album artist: Undefined

[rumplestiltskin]

Okay. Run that file through Handbrake using the AppleTV Legacy preset. I know it's a higher bitrate than the original AVI but you shouldn't lose any apparent quality. Then take the resulting file and load it into Submerge. Add your "srt" file (and make sure the name of the video and srt file are NOT the same or are not in the same folder so the subtitles don't load automatically - you want Submerge to do this job). Set your subtitle parameters (size, font, background - then render again). "Save as..." to get a .mov file with a subtitle track (which may or may not display depending on the device on which you are playing that video), -or- export as an mp4 to get the subtitle actually embedded into the video.

[Boothington]

Rumplestiltskin, thank you very much for your help, and sorry for the delay in thanking you.

There's a slightly separate issue you may be able to offer me some advice on.

I have created a .mov file using Submerge, which is slightly too large for Toast to burn to a single-layer DVD. (For some reason it is having unresolvable problems with dual-layer DVDs.) Toast tells me "4.45GB are needed, 4.38GB are available."

Which settings could I use in Submerge to create a .mov file that is slightly smaller? Or should I use a different programme to export the embedded-subtitle .mov file I've made in Submerge as a smaller .mov file? Tried opening this file in Handbrake, but it just ignores it. Any way round this? Mpeg streamclip? If so, which settings would be best to shrink the file to just under 4.38GB while maintaining optimum quality and preserving aspect ratio?

For your info, here is a videospec report on the file I'm working with. If I've chosen the wrong settings in Submerge to create this file, I can easily make another one of course...
***** Analyzed File Results *****

*** General Parameters ***
- Name: Ulysses.Gaze.1995.XviD.gg666 264 Lossless best.mov
- Container: MOV - QuickTime
- Size: 5.873 GB
- Duration: 2h 49mn
- Bitrate: 4 630 Kbps

*** Video Track Parameters ***
- Format: H.264/MPEG-4 AVC
- Bitrate: Max.: Undefined / Average: 4 160 Kbps / Min.: Undefined
- Frame rate (fps): Max.: 600.000 / Average: 25.104 / Min.: 25.000
- Encoding profile: Main@L5.1
- Width (Pixel number): 704*400
- Pixel Aspect Ratio: Undefined
- Display Aspect Ratio: 16:9
- Interlacing: Progressive

*** First Audio Track Parameters ***
- Format: ALAC (Apple Lossless Audio Coding) audio
- Bitrate: 466 Kbps
- Resolution: 16 bits
- Profile: Undefined
- Channel(s): 2 (stereo)
- Position: Undefined

*** Miscellaneous ***
- Subtitle(s): No Subtitle
- Album: Undefined
- Performer: Undefined
- Genre: Undefined
- Encoded date: UTC 2011-06-17 07:16:46
- Album artist: Undefined

[rumplestiltskin]

What do you want to end up with? A video DVD or just a video that may be burned as data onto a DVD? Each requires different efforts. Let me know.

[Boothington]

A video DVD. I am able to use Toast to make DVDs of similar .mov files that I've made in Submerge. The problem in this case is that the movie is enormous - a little under 3 hours - so the resulting file is slightly too large for a single-layer DVD. I would've thought Toast would compress the file, but apparently not...

[rumplestiltskin]

Depending on the version of Toast, compression may be built-in and will be activated (there's a checkbox) if you use only a single-layer disc. However, three hours of video will need a dual-layer disc.

The size of the video that Submerge makes has nothing to do with the product that Toast creates. As 50MB of MP3s that play for 79 minutes will be expanded up to almost 700MB when burned as an "audio CD", so a video will take up a certain amount of space when authored (through Toast, for example) for DVD Video disc. Toast does give you options for video quality (which does have an effect on disc space required).

You might be better off splitting that ".mov" file in half and then authoring each half separately in Toast to end up with two single-layer discs.

Better yet (and this is just be preaching): Dump the DVDs and buy a $90 WD TV Media Player which plays all sorts of files.

One last thing: If you just "saved" the file from submerge, the subtitles are a separate (though included) track. I do not know whether Toast will see the subtitle track. However, if you export from Submerge as an MP4 (for example), the subtitle is truly embedded and Toast (and everything else) will see the subtitle as it is part of the video track. Let me know if all this makes sense.

[Boothington]

I already use a media player myself, but the DVD I need to make is not for my own use.

The .mov file that I've created was exported from Submerge, so the subtitles are embedded. With a different film of smaller size, Toast was able to make a DVD with the subtitles visible as part of the video track.

Toast must be refusing to compress due to the file size, so your suggestion to split the file in two seems like a very good one. Could you explain to me the simplest way of going about doing that? Which program would I use? Ideally I'd like to select the splitting point myself.

[rumplestiltskin]

MPEG Streamclip will let you do this. Just load in the video, select "in" and "out" points (you may use the "i" and "o" keys) and crop out the part you don't want. "Save as..." (don't export) as "part1" (whatever). Then load back in the original video and crop out the other half; "Save as..." that half to "part2". No changes to the original video but you now have two add'l "halves" of the video which you may then author and burn through Toast.

Let us know how it goes.

[bigsmilesf]

Thank you for your incredibly useful information about Submerge, Rumplestiltskin! One suggestion you made in one of your responses here was to select the Apple Intermediate Codec for the video export. Could you tell me where to find that? When I go to Setup > Video > Settings, I see lots of different compression types, but no Apple Intermediate Codec. Am I looking in the wrong place?

Thanks for all of your help!