What is best way to improve soft SD channel detail on LCD TV ?

[DBenz]

Hi,

When replacing CRT with LCD, how can we retain the detail seen on CRT TV in SD channels, of which there are many ?

I have been noticing that standard definition channels when viewed on LCD TV are a worse quality than CRT can display them as. Visit a shop and it looks ok, but then when you ask what channel they are showing, they admit its a premade HD feed to show the TV off, crafty sods ! Get them to feed it an SD broadcast and the picture goes soft, with sharp edges to objects. Compare one to a CRT with the same broadcast or dvd and CRT is far better with no loss of detail within objects. Its true, old technology better than new for SD siganls.

Feed it a HD broadcast and its better, but there are many SD channels still and will be for some time. I also have loads of vhs and dvd and camcorder footage which looks great on my crt, looks like the HD picture, imagine the uproar there would have been if it looked like it does now on LCD, for when we only had CRT. Now feed it to LCD and its soft in detail by comparison, camcorders and video recorders over the years have come on to give great results, now the LCD makes it look worst than when viewed on CRT. I have done tests in a few shops and homes, SD has definitely got blurred detail.

Likewise our vhs recordings, dvd recordings etc etc. I make a dvd of holiday footage and it looks great on crt, give it to a member of the family and it looks crap on their LCD, all my lovely professional pics and quality footage looks like its from a cheap bit of kit. Perhaps for those I shall have to edit and produce HD versions for the LCD and SD version for my CRT. Double the work, thats nuts, I dont have time for such.

DBenz

[handyguy]

What model TV? It depends on it's pulldown filter, some do it better than others do it.

In my opinion, the best SD display is on a plasma.

[jagabo]

The source may be upscaling, not the TV. For example, your cable box may be upscaling everything to 1080i. In which case the poor scaling is the fault of the cable box, not the TV. In any case, SD upscaled to HD is always a bit fuzzy. And typically, the more you try to sharpen it the more artifacts you will get. So sharper isn't necessarily better.

[DBenz]

What model TV?

I am seeing this on all models in shops and in homes, nothing has impressed me yet.
Can you in fact suggest those that may be better at it.
For homes, surely the cable boxes we get from our cable companies would be created to give us decent pics ? Not sure what the shops use but whatever they use is crap.

Plasma...2nd time thats been mentioned, but now asking of that I find they dont do 26 inch or 27 or 28, the size required for the house in question. Plasma is not a solution due to its size.

SD upscaled to HD is always a bit fuzzy

This doesn't bode well for trying to replace a CRT
There has to be an easy fix for this, unless everyones happy to go softer with LCD on SD ? I suggest they run their old CRT beside their new purchase, bet they dont, just trust in new is best, on SD it isnt.

Has anyone experienced this and fixed it ? If you are with cable, are there settings in the Virgin cable or V+ box to fix it ? If without cable or satellite, which Freeview box wont mess up ?


DBenz

[usually_quiet]

To my eyes, broadcast SDTV looks better on a smallish 720p TV than on a larger 1080i or 1080p TV. Maybe its just me, but logically there should be less magnification of defects.

[edDV]

Two separate issues as Jagabo said. The source and the HDTV.

First, lets assume a standard DVD player (analog component out) as source. Most "PAL" DVD will be either 720x576i (interlace) or 720x576p (progressive). The DVD player can be set to output 576i or 576p to the TV. Assuming 576i, the TV must first deinterlace or inverse 2:2 pulldowm to progressive, then upscale to the "native display resolution" of the TV (typically 1366x768 or 1920x1080). A 576p source will just upscale. The quality of the result depends on the image processor in the HDTV.

Over here in the USA, you can buy 11 variations of a 42" Samsung LCD-TV. The differences are "native resolution", image processor quality, connectivity features, florescent vs. LED backlight and 3D.

The higher priced models will have the better image processor. You just need to evaluate if you need the other high end connectivity or 3D. If you are shopping the discount stores, be assured you are getting the low end processor. The "low end processor" is probably what they were selling as the high end three years back.

As for source, cable/sat boxes may allow separate output for SD vs. HD, or force all output to one standard like 1080i. If the latter, all SD upscale is performed in the tuner box. If you buy a quality TV, ideally you will have a tuner box that outputs 576i for SD and native 720p or 1080i for HD. That allows the TV to do the processing.

Same issues apply for DVD players, Blu-Ray players, media players and HTPC's when it comes to SD source.


PS: In the past, Samsung and Sony had the better image processors but the other brands have improved. In the store, compare the brand you are considering to a high end Samsung or Sony. Insist the store play an interlace DVD. Fast paced sports are most brutal to the processor. A night game would be best. Check the dark areas.

[DBenz]

For someone without cable/satellite, considering buying a Sony 26inch fluorecent backlit LCD, the 302 model, or an LED backlit LCD, a LG M2780D 27 inch, I wonder what would be best. One review said the LG wasnt v good at SD signals, the Sony I have seen and it was poor at SD signals, that was in a Sony shop using its onboard freeview box. Its the only 26inch Sony do, its HD ready, and the LG is 1080p and has great reviews for its HD signal picture, but poor for the SD.
So frustrating this, there are lots of SD broadcasts to watch.

26inch through to 28inch is the requirement, and going with Sony without knowing of whats inside is the only option as panny dont do a 26inch.

Could do with a lab test on what the TVs can deliver from SD. At least start off with one that is better at SD.

Then consider a lab test on freeview boxes as to which one would deliver the right signal to that TV. The house has no cable/satellite.

Are there any good test sites ?

DBenz

[oldfart13]

Better to check AVS Forum for more discussion and actual model numbers. You might start here (though these are for 32" and up) and ask some questions in the correct forum:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1082327

(old posts, but you have to start somewhere over there)...

Also try this thread (with the model you suggested) on buying an LCD/LED/Plasma set:

http://httparchive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1230050&page=54

[neomaine]

For someone without cable/satellite, considering buying a Sony 26inch fluorecent backlit LCD, the 302 model, or an LED backlit LCD, a LG M2780D 27 inch, I wonder what would be best. One review said the LG wasnt v good at SD signals, the Sony I have seen and it was poor at SD signals, that was in a Sony shop using its onboard freeview box. Its the only 26inch Sony do, its HD ready, and the LG is 1080p and has great reviews for its HD signal picture, but poor for the SD.
So frustrating this, there are lots of SD broadcasts to watch.

26inch through to 28inch is the requirement, and going with Sony without knowing of whats inside is the only option as panny dont do a 26inch.

Could do with a lab test on what the TVs can deliver from SD. At least start off with one that is better at SD.

Then consider a lab test on freeview boxes as to which one would deliver the right signal to that TV. The house has no cable/satellite.

Are there any good test sites ?

DBenz

DBenz,

- What is your actual size requirement, not the TV? Sounds like you're trying to fit into an existing space.

- As you've found, no HDTV (720 or 1080p) will display SD (480i at best) very well. Some better than others, but none will be close. At those sizes, you should go with 720p.

- I'm surprised your DVDs didn't look any better on the HDTVs. Though as with any upscaling, the minor faults became larger as they are scaled. Some TVs and/or players are better than others. In general, I'd say that your home videos didn't have enough bitrate. (If interlaced, the deinterlacing from the player or the TV may be the culprit. If the DVDs are 480p, you may have to set the player to progressive output to the video doesn't go prog -> interlaced -> prog in the player. This would be true for all s-video or composite connect players or component and hdmi connected players not set to progressive output. You may want to start a seperate thread on creating home-made DVDs to get some additional answers not related to this thread on the 'right' TV.)