HDMI device that can capture (unencrypted) "HD" audio sources?

[jalyst]

I want one for legitimate reasons, not for some organisation's definition of pirating...
I'm interested for the purpose of capturing HD audio (normally found in BD's & PS3 Games, rarely XB360) via HDMI,
running it through a HRTF filter (for 2ch simulated surround), & then out through my modded Essence ST.

I realise with BD movies I can already do this in windows without the need for a capture card, so long as I have a PAP compliant card, BD reader, & softplayer that can do DH or similar.
And it's irrelevant whether my card is PAP compliant in Linux, so once the BD is ripped I should also be able to do this.

But as my Essence ST is not PAP compliant, it's not possible to handle the HD audio stream via the PAP process in Windows.
Capturing BD output from my PS3 via HDMI (once HDCP is stripped) should remove the PAP burden, then hopefully I can pass the signal to a HRTF filter, and then onto my Essence ST.

Another reason for HDMI capture is HD audio from console games...

Again I want my Essence ST to be the final DAC in the chain, not an AVR.
The only concern I have is desync, but if audio & video are passed to the capture device & video "passed-through", then clocking should remain "fairly" in-sync.
Of course because of the post-processing assoc/w running through a filter and then on to the ST, tweaking of timings will be necessary.

Sorry if this doesn't clearly convey what I'm wanting, write-up is quite rushed, strapped for time right now.
Thank-you for your time/thoughts/advice! All the best.

[pandy]

AFAIK not exist ready to use capture card with HDCP - or You build similar cardy by yourself, or You write software to card that already exist.

[jalyst]

that's odd, I've seen users @Doom9 mention a few cards that can capture hdcp sources.

[pandy]

Hmmm i never saw anyone that have legal HDMI + HDCP capture card.

[jalyst]

Oh I'm not arguing it'll be legal, at least according to the the US's DMCA...
But I don't want to circumvent HDCP for illegitimate purposes e.g. copying copyright content.

Here's one example of a card that can capture hdcp sources
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1457132#post1457132
There's one or two other examples if i recall correctly...

[pandy]

http://support.avermedia-usa.com/kb_article.php?ref=8707-MPYB-8674

So You can as i wrote earlier write own software for HDMI card - I think that all HDMI capture cards are able to use HDCP but HDCP is not supported due of licensing policy of the HDCP Org. point of view. Intensity from Black Magick is able to capture HDMI with HDCP from hardware point of view but HDCP is not supported at the software point of view at all - so... after releasing HDCP key there some small chance for creating such software but it will be illegal from law point of view and IMO this is valid for all products on market ie any HDMI capture will not support HDCP officially. Sorry - blame for this http://www.digital-cp.com/

[jalyst]

I realise avermedia doesn't officially support it, but the hole is there on earlier drivers.
There's definitely a few solutions out there that'll allow one to capture hdcp sources...

What I don't know is if I can manipulate that source's audio in the way I've described.
And will audio & video become too desynched....
I imagine some desync would be inevitable, so how would one correct that?

[mufunyo]

If you just want the audio, I believe the HDFury has S/PDIF output. You could split the HDMI signal and connect the S/PDIF out on the HDFury to your sound card's digital input. If you connect the other end of the HDMI splitter to a TV set, it's possible the display lag on the TV and the audio lag from the capture->process->output step might match up.

[pandy]

IMO none of known to me, legal capture cards are equipped with HDCP - HDCP key is given after signing license with http://www.digital-cp.com/ by http://www.digital-cp.com/ .

Compensation is quite easy - You need to buffer video if audio latency is higher than time of half frame (but in modern world - TV sets are usually equipped with video processing functionality which introduce some buffers - usually 3 - 5 frames thus audio path need to be delayed proper amount of time so IMO Your audio probably will be not out of sync as You think)

[jalyst]

If you just want the audio, I believe the HDFury has S/PDIF output. You could split the HDMI signal and connect the S/PDIF out on the HDFury to your sound card's digital input.

Yeah but it won't be passing HD audio, spdif doesn't have the bandwidth for that.
Best it can do is DD/DTS 5.1...

[jalyst]

Compensation is quite easy - You need to buffer video if audio latency is higher than time of half frame (but in modern world - TV sets are usually equipped with video processing functionality which introduce some buffers - usually 3 - 5 frames thus audio path need to be delayed proper amount of time so IMO Your audio probably will be not out of sync as You think)

Interesting thanks for sharing that, that's good to know if you're correct.

[pandy]

Interesting thanks for sharing that, that's good to know if you're correct.

To deinterlace picture You need 2 fields ie at least one picture must be buffered and exposed to deinterlacing algorithm, to detect cadence at least 2 pictures must be stored and compared, if better deinterlacing algorithm is used then you need more video pictures (to separate progressive and non progressive part) so usually TV buffer more than 2 pictures and display additional one (situation past - present - future or z^-2, z^-1, z^0). Additionally your digital HDMI source is usually able to introduce some lipsync corection - usually it is from -20 - +120-250ms

[jalyst]

Thanks mate,

Just need to determine that there's definitely a device which can capture hdcp sources.
I will now follow some leads I've got more closely....

[pandy]

IMO - old TV with HDMI receiver as separate IC - most of them expose RAW video to further processing also they deal with HDCP - audio is extracted as digital stream (problem with older HDMI rev is that only small amount of modern codecs is supported).

[yoda313]

Best it can do is DD/DTS 5.1...

I have been able to get 640kpbs dolby digital over fiber optic with my hauppuage hd pvr. Unfortunately it doesn't do dts encoding. This would seem to theoritcally be dolby digital plus not true hd so it would be the lowest of hd audio over fiber optic.

[pandy]

Many S/PDIF can support few Mbps so in theory even higher quality codecs can work - AFAIR S/PDIF work for sure for 192 ksps with 2 channel 24 bit PCM audio

[Cauptain]

AVERTV HD DVR do it. Look this link: AVERTV HDCP Trick

Work flawless on HDMI PS3.


Cauptain

[pandy]

But not officially (illegal) http://support.avermedia-usa.com/kb_article.php?ref=8707-MPYB-8674

[Cauptain]

But not officially (illegal) http://support.avermedia-usa.com/kb_article.php?ref=8707-MPYB-8674

It is not illegal. There is a gap. There was no code used or was necessary to reverse hackers drivers. So it is not illegal.

The staff has stop this habit of thinking that everything is not official is illegal

HD AVERTV Trick is so nice e llegal and will do everything you need, record HDCP sources via HDMI .


Cauptain

[pandy]

Hahaha - yes we can pretend or playing with words but... don't take me wrong - i don't like HDCP - i think that this is stupid, weak protection and against customers but trick remain trick.

[jalyst]

Weird, I didn't get any emails about these posts.

Best it can do is DD/DTS 5.1...

I have been able to get 640kpbs dolby digital over fiber optic with my hauppuage hd pvr. Unfortunately it doesn't do dts encoding. This would seem to theoritcally be dolby digital plus not true hd so it would be the lowest of hd audio over fiber optic.

Interesting, I do have analogue capture in mind as a fall-back...

Even better...
I'm hoping one day Happauge will release a similar device with HDMI-in...
With some "community hacking" it could become become the ultimate capture/transcoding device.
It's already a very useful device, both in the Windows & Linux community.

AVERTV HD DVR do it. Look this link: AVERTV HDCP Trick

Work flawless on HDMI PS3.


Cauptain

Yeah that's the one I had heard about...
I will definitely look more closely at it to see if there's any limitations, thanks!

But not officially (illegal) http://support.avermedia-usa.com/kb_article.php?ref=8707-MPYB-8674

It is not illegal. There is a gap. There was no code used or was necessary to reverse hackers drivers. So it is not illegal.

The staff has stop this habit of thinking that everything is not official is illegal

HD AVERTV Trick is so nice e llegal and will do everything you need, record HDCP sources via HDMI .


Cauptain

I guess Pandy's saying ....

Avermedia may have deliberately ensured there was a "gap", to get a marketing edge over competitors.
If true then they'd be in breach of their licensing agreement with Intel...

A tricky thing for Intel to prove, plus the DMCA has little influence in Chinese/Taiwanese courts anyway.

[yoda313]

Interesting, I do have analogue capture in mind as a fall-back...

Even better...
I'm hoping one day Happauge will release a similar device with HDMI-in...
With some "community hacking" it could become become the ultimate capture/transcoding device.
It's already a very useful device, both in the Windows & Linux community.

Yep its a good realtime option. Just remember about the dts limitation for the hdpvr. I don't know if any hack or mod was ever made to allow dts encoding. Or even a purchase upgrade would be nice if they could somehow do that to enable it.

Also you might be able to do dts recording over fiber optic to soundcards with fiber optic in. That is a gray area and would be limited to the lower end standard definition dts to be sure. You could check the forum for that if you want to go in that direction.

[usually_quiet]

Hauppauge does make a card with HDMI input http://www.hauppauge.com/site/products/data_colossus.html However, like the AverMedia card (when not using a hack), it does not record HDCP protected content.

[Brad]

The actual hard part is that you want to capture the HD audio. The AVerTV card won't even do more than 2 channel PCM, let alone any type of bitstream. The HDMI chip used is capable of high-rate LPCM but not Dolby/DTS, and in any event the drivers support neither.

Some foreign HDMI cards that have SPDIF allow 5.1 over HDMI, but I don't know if they allow multichan PCM or the compressed HD formats. And who knows whether there's any way to bypass HDCP on those.

One such card is Korea's Skydigital SKYHD CaptureX (sold as ICONBIT Spider Hybrid HD Recorder E710 in Russia). It actually uses two of the same chips as the AVerTV, but according to press photos uses a newer HDMI chip, the SiI9135ACTU. Though an Asian forum I saw claimed it uses the SiI9013 like the HD DVR. In any event, they say "PCM, AC3, DTS" with no channel counts or anything else. And their capture software only includes decoder setup for the vanilla flavours of those codecs.

[jalyst]

The actual hard part is that you want to capture the HD audio. The AVerTV card won't even do more than 2 channel PCM, let alone any type of bitstream. The HDMI chip used is capable of high-rate LPCM but not Dolby/DTS, and in any event the drivers support neither.

2-ch, are you absolutely sure? What a damn joke!
What's the point of it being a digital HDMI capture card, if it can't do at least 6-ch LPCM!?

I wasn't concerned about whether it supported DD/DTS, I was hoping it'd support at least 6-ch LPCM...
So that I can redirect that input to a filter, turn it into 2-ch simulated surround, & then redirect that output to my Essence.

Some foreign HDMI cards that have SPDIF allow 5.1 over HDMI,

Pointless if all they can do is DD/DTS 5.1, I may as well get one of the sound-cards that can do that!

but I don't know if they allow multichan PCM or the compressed HD formats. And who knows whether there's any way to bypass HDCP on those.
One such card is Korea's Skydigital SKYHD CaptureX. It actually uses two of the same chips as the AVerTV, but according to press photos uses a newer HDMI chip, the SiI9135ACTU. Though an Asian forum I saw claimed it uses the SiI9013 like the HD DVR. In any event, they say "PCM, AC3, DTS" with no channel counts or anything else.

But what's the point, even it can bypass HDCP, there's no way it can pass true HD audio via S/PDIF?!

And their capture software only includes decoder setup for the vanilla flavours of those codecs.

Can you clarify what you mean here? Thank-you.

[jalyst]

Hauppauge does make a card with HDMI input http://www.hauppauge.com/site/products/data_colossus.html However, like the AverMedia card (when not using a hack), it does not record HDCP protected content.

So it has a hack like the avermedia?
Is it better suited IYO than the avermedia for what I'm trying to do?

Thank-you.

[pandy]

There is a hope - after HDCP master key leakage... there is a hope...

[usually_quiet]

Hauppauge does make a card with HDMI input http://www.hauppauge.com/site/products/data_colossus.html However, like the AverMedia card (when not using a hack), it does not record HDCP protected content.

So it has a hack like the avermedia?
Is it better suited IYO than the avermedia for what I'm trying to do?

Thank-you.

No, I meant the AverMedia card won't capture HDCP protected content unless the hack is used.

The Hauppauge card was just released and there is at present no known hack that allows HDCP protected content to be recorded. I suspect the audio capabilities of the Hauppauge Colossus are much like the USB Hauppauge HD PVR.

[jalyst]

It isn't mentioned on any of the Euro sites (where hauppauge is based) or the Singapore one, only the US site.

I wonder if the analogue side is exactly the same as the hdpvr, or if there's deficits or improvements.
http://www.hauppauge.com/site/products/data_colossus.html
http://www.hauppauge.co.uk/site/products/data_hdpvr.html
Looks like it's coming to Australia very soon, their main distributor already has it up on their site.
http://newmagic.com.au/products/Hauppauge/Internal-Products.asp#fragment-6
http://www.newmagic.com.au/support/Files/Colossus.pdf
Looks like they'll be selling directly from their webstore too, it may be cheaper buying "direct" than from a local retailer.

It looks very cool, I hope it has all the analogue capture features (or better) of the HD-PVR.
And I hope to god a HDCP "work around" comes along very soon for it's digital/HDMI capture.

Then again all the "work arounds" for hdmi capture devices I've seen so far, do a great job w/HDCP video sources, but very little with the source's audio.

[usually_quiet]

It isn't mentioned on any of the Euro sites (where hauppauge is based) or the Singapore one, only the U.S. site.

While they have offices in several other countries, the headquarters for Hauppauge Computer Works are in Hauppauge, New York, USA. ...which means sometimes their products are released in the USA first.