Best MPEG-2 Capture Device?

[dorenhagen]

I own a Panasonic AG-1980 and have tried to capture to a Magnavox DVD Recorder (MDR-515) but was disappointed in quality compared to a direct DV-AVI capture with the Canopus ADVC110. I am looking for a direct MPEG-2 capture device which will give as good results as the ADVC110.

I wish to capture direct to MPEG-2 to avoid re-encoding from DV-AVI.

Thank you.

[DB83]

There are hardware Mpeg2 capture units - Hauppauge make some.

Or you can try out a software transcode with your ADVC and Corel Video Studio X3 (mpeg2 capture)

[PuzZLeR]

My vote, as was mentioned in other threads, is for the ATI Wonder USB 600 - a very nice product.

The quality is fabulous, even at lower bitrates, especially for VHS, but I still capture to over 8000kbps.

The accompanying software Catalyst Media Center (CMC) is good enough for VHS transfers, and you can configure a file called "Profile.txt" in its installation directory with your settings (but restart Catalyst again so it can work). As well, avoid the Custom settings within and just do it with the text file for better quality.

The slight pain is that CMC splits files into segments to accomodate for the 4GB limit on older FAT32 drives, but with an MPEG dedicated editor, it's easy to join the parts together (and you won't lose any info). You probably need to edit VHS anyway so it's not a problem.

Don't make the mistake of getting another model, the 550, 650 and 750 are different hardware and software. Trust me, I had a 750, with the same setup I have for the 600, and it was horrible (dropped frames, audio dropouts, weaker quality, etc).

Another nice advantage of the ATI 600 is that if you download the WDM drivers, you also have the option of capturing to other AVI formats with VirtualDub.

Hauppauge SD models only do MPEG, and do it rather softly compared to the ATI 600 IMO. Canopus models only do DV. The ATI 600 does much more.

[dorenhagen]

Thank you PuzZLeR.

[PuzZLeR]

Just for the record, I too have a Panny 1980, and have been very satisfied with a number of VHS captures directly to MPEG-2 using the ATI 600.

[dorenhagen]

PuzZLeR, not to belabor the point, but precisely what do you mean by "very satisfied" with VHS captures? Would this capture MPEG-2 videos as well as a good DVD Recorder? Any A/V sync problems. Do you use the TBC regardless of tape condition? Can you think of anyway to significantly improve on this capture? Would you consider the Panny 1980 -> ATI 600 as an optimized approach for maximizing quality for time and money invested?

BTW, I intend only to trim, join, demux and add soundtracks.

Thank you again very much.

[PuzZLeR]

PuzZLeR, not to belabor the point, but precisely what do you mean by "very satisfied" with VHS captures?

No trouble.

Well, nothing beats capturing to lossless, such as HuffYUV or Lagarith, and MPEG-2 has its limitations, but for what I get with the ATI/MPEG-2 I am "very satisfied" because I still get nice, crisp and very highly detailed encodes. There are a few more blocks and edge artifacts with the MPEG-2 version, and a detail difference of maybe 1%-2% less, but considering the smaller file size of, even high-bitrate, MPEG-2, I am "very satisfied". I've even chucked tapes after many captures.

But if it's a VHS of a wedding, or a kid's first birthday, etc, you shouldn't be chucking tapes, and should be capturing to lossless in this case. As you know, MPEG-2, even with the 600, would be a bit tense for many hardcores here.

Would this capture MPEG-2 videos as well as a good DVD Recorder?

Yes, even better in most cases. However, my Pioneer 520 has a bit more grain in the encodes for TV captures so it can cover some flaws like banding, which is more visible with the 600. But that's MPEG-2 analog captures - it will never be perfect.

But with VHS, the 600 does considerably better than a DVR IMO.

Any A/V sync problems.

None. I don't think it even dropped a frame either. Any sync shift is sometimes when using SageTV, a linear delay for some reason, but that's easily corrected - and it happens with the Hauppauge too.

Do you use the TBC regardless of tape condition?

Always. But I have tested without it and the ATI captures just fine. I use a TBC to minimize jitter and get better encodes, not because the ATI will fail without it. But, given that it is indeed MPEG-2, a lossy compressed format, reduced jitter is only a benefit.

Can you think of anyway to significantly improve on this capture?

Nope. A good VCR deck -> TBC -> proc amp -> ATI capture is good enough IMO. If I need more, I pull out VirtualDub and capture lossless then.

Would you consider the Panny 1980 -> ATI 600 as an optimized approach for maximizing quality for time and money invested?

For MPEG-2 yes. Without a doubt. Even for AVI formats, the ATI does that too, so you wouldn't need a Canopus either for the same DV.

BTW, I intend only to trim, join, demux and add soundtracks.

If you use MPEG-2 captures, and a dedicated MPEG editor like Womble, you will have no problem with such projects.

[lacywest]

ATI Wonder USB 600 ... are you talking about this ...

http://www.diamondmm.com/TVW600USB.php ... this is a USB stick

Or do I need to do a more intense search for a unit that sits next to the computer ... I thought I would be looking for a hardware encoder ... if I found it.

Just to mention ... I'm just reading this post and wanted to see what it was ...

[PuzZLeR]

ATI Wonder USB 600 ... are you talking about this ...

http://www.diamondmm.com/TVW600USB.php

Unless Diamond, who is supposedly only a distributor of ATI products, hasn't touched the motor under the hood, then yes, that's it.

... this is a USB stick

Yeah, so?

Ok, I know, a "USB stick" is supposed to be a consumer toy in most cases. True.

But I'm not blowing smoke here - this one is honestly different, and a classic case of the proverb, "Don't judge a book by its cover."

It's not at all like the $1 cheapware on eBaY, or like other similar items in electronics chains, or crappy imports, or even like other ATI/Diamond models (like the 750 for example - ugghhh!).

This is one "USB stick" that can be used for "real stuff".

Or do I need to do a more intense search for a unit that sits next to the computer ... I thought I would be looking for a hardware encoder ... if I found it.

Hardware-based encoders are over-glorified because they relieve alot of PC resources, but, even though it's a nice feature, that's where their practical advantage ends IMO.

For example, the Hauppauge 1950 runs on very low PC resources using the Conexant chip it's based on, but the video quality suffers as a result - softer with less detail. Software based encoding on a PC is almost always better in quality than some tiny little chip "that sits next to the computer".

These hardware based encoders kind of remind me of those VCR/DvD combos that dub VHS->DvD for you. They are highly reliable, easy, convenient and would make any newbie's life easier than having to search for a good deck, TBC, capture card, use PC resources, blah, blah, blah. But we both know they don't produce the best results. Those are what I consider "consumer toys" to be honest.

Just to mention ... I'm just reading this post and wanted to see what it was ...

Well, nobody's dismissing your discussion my friend. Welcome.

[lacywest]

I've used a lot of video encoders over the last few years ... and I do have that Pinnacle USB stick that first came out ... bought it at Best Buy for around 80 bucks back in 2006 ... I believe ... I wanted to use it with my laptop at work ... when I still had a job [California made a lot of budget cuts and the place I worked at ... didn't get their contract re-newed].

Okay now ... how well would this one work for ... connecting to the S-VHS output from a Directv DVR HR10-250 ... so I can unload some of my wife's classic black and white movies from the TCM [no commercials] channel ... she likes her vintage classic movies.

I do have the Hauppauge HD PVR ... but I really dont need to record these movies in HD ... 8GBs per movie uses up alot of space on my drives ... two 500GB ... are dedicated to the HTPC in our bedroom.

[PuzZLeR]

Okay now ... how well would this one work for ... connecting to the S-VHS output from a Directv DVR HR10-250 ... so I can unload some of my wife's classic black and white movies from the TCM [no commercials] channel ... she likes her vintage classic movies.

I do have the Hauppauge HD PVR ... but I really dont need to record these movies in HD ... 8GBs per movie uses up alot of space on my drives ... two 500GB ... are dedicated to the HTPC in our bedroom.

I don't see how it will be a problem at all. (But I'm sure you know that this will be an analog, or real-time, capture, not a direct copy.)

Just connect it directly to the S-Video female input of the 600 and CMC should recognize it.

Yes, if you want it in SD to save space I understand, but if you change your mind, you can even capture in HD as well with this thing by adjusting the resolution, even matching aspect ratio and fps. There's a configurable TXT file in the installation directory of CMC that does just that (explained earlier in this post).

I've used a lot of video encoders over the last few years ... and I do have that Pinnacle USB stick that first came out ... bought it at Best Buy for around 80 bucks back in 2006 ... I believe ... I wanted to use it with my laptop at work ... when I still had a job [California made a lot of budget cuts and the place I worked at ... didn't get their contract re-newed].

After two bad experiences, since the late 90s, with Dazzle (now owned by Pinnacle) I am gun-shy and have avoided anything Pinnacle/Dazzle for about 7 years now, so I have no opinion on a how a 2006 product (roughly two years after my banning of them) would fare and compare in this context.

But I'm open minded to hear your opinion on it since even ATI products intra-vary in quality, so this might be different. From now on, if I ever buy another Dazzle/Pinnacle product, it will only be if there's good feedback about it in forums.

Not sure what your field is, but if you are in a sector that's been slapped hard by the downturn you have my good wishes for recovery. Even up here offices, even clients I deal with and tell me directly, are tightening their doors from applicants, and squeezing out employees, so I understand.

[lacywest]

Not sure what your field is, but if you are in a sector that's been slapped hard by the downturn you have my good wishes for recovery. Even up here offices, even clients I deal with and tell me directly, are tightening their doors from applicants, and squeezing out employees, so I understand.

My field was ... Drug and Alcohol counseling ... took the courses at Fresno City College and started interning at a place called SATU ... Substance Abuse Treatment Unit ... Spring 2004 ... 3 months later ... they hired me ... a year later I was transferred to the Quest House facility. About 3 years later ... budget cuts had an effect on how they treated the clients there. So after working for this company ... Turning Point ... 4 Years and 2 months later ... I was laid off ... effective July 1st 2008.

I called the Director of SATU around May 2010 ... the original person who hired me ... and asked him if I could do some volunteer work there ... and he said yes ... but before I could start doing some volunteer work there ... they closed that facility completely ... and from what I've been told the Director of SATU has moved from Fresno to San Diego ... whoa !

He was a cool guy ... reminded me of Bob Newhart. There is another facility next door ... called ... G Street Facility. That facility is still there ... I know this because I was there ... a week ago ... picking up a Emachine PC from the secretary working there. She forgot her password on her PC and she gave it to me to work on ... bummer ... I opened it up and found 4 swollen capacitors ... one of them is leaking ... so now I'm doing a mother board replacement.

The G Street Facility has a different mission from the other facilities ... they receive parolees from parole officers who have kind of gotten themselves in trouble or may get themselves in trouble ... so they are ordered to stay at this facility or they could get sent back to a State Prison ... again ... while staying there ... they are allowed to leave and seek employment.

It used to be a given that having a job with the state was a good thing or a job involving state funding but ... not anymore.

Instead of spending all the time and money I spent at Fresno City College to get training in the Substance Abuse Field ... I should have chose a path in the medical field. Now a days ... I make pocket money by repairing PCs or building PCs ... at least I keep busy. My wife is already retired from being a Librarian at Corcoran State Prison II ... she was the librarian for Robert Downey Jr ... when the judge decided he needed to do some prison time ... my wife says nothing but good things about him and when he makes a movie ... she wants to see them. About a year after he was released ... he was at the Salt Lake City Airport ... and so was my wife ... he he he ... they spent an hour sitting at a Baskin and Robbins booth talking and nobody recognized him.

[jagabo]

I think the ATI 600 has the same AGC problems that the 650 and 750 have. That makes it unsuitable for archiving, in my opinion.

Sample from ATI 650:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/326560-Which-is-better-usb-stick-vhs-cap-or-hd-pvr-...=1#post2023227

[Brad]

No AGC issue with the 600 USB, at least, not that I've seen. If you know of a stress test I can give it a try.

[PuzZLeR]

@Lacywest: Never worked for the government myself, but yeah, "conventional wisdom" states that it's a stable career with a steady linear lift over time. (Maybe that's why I never applied. )

But actually volunteer work can help - it does indeed make contacts. As for PC work you do, as a hobby, I've done some VHS captures for several folk. If you talk enough about the professional equipment you own on this (of which I think I do thanks to the advice of this forum ) word gets around and people start coming to you with their most prized content - something they couldn't hand over to a consumer tool for capture. However, it hasn't made me rich or anything, but if I'm ever out of work I might run a flyer campaign in the area to see how that goes.

[PuzZLeR]

I think the ATI 600 has the same AGC problems that the 650 and 750 have. That makes it unsuitable for archiving, in my opinion.

Sample from ATI 650:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/326560-Which-is-better-usb-stick-vhs-cap-or-hd-pvr-...=1#post2023227

This is unfounded my dear friend. To say you "think" is not to say you "know".

I have yet to see this problem with the 600 otherwise it would be trashed by now, like I got rid of the 750 several weeks ago.

As well, all are three, the 600, 650 and 750 are different things entirely - hardware and software. I haven't tried the 650, but I had the 750 in my possession once and they were completely different products. I've compared directly, the 600 and the 750, in the exact same setup and it was no contest how the 600 totally beat it.

And I'm not sure if it can be considered an AGC problem, but the 750 had some serious problems with inconsistency - in video and audio. The 600 never did even today.

I hate to say this, but the 750 was a horrible product. I returned it. (It's also proof IMO that capture products are going south.)

Do you have a stubborn clip? I would be more than glad to run it through the 600 if it helps.

As well, give me an hour or so, I will post some clips of tests I did comparing the 600 and 750. Even though I don't have a 750 any more, I still kept some test samples for good measure.

[PuzZLeR]

In a nearby thread I conducted a comparison using a TV capture from a preview station that runs the same advertisements over and over again over a ~10 minute cycle. I used a Hawaii 5-0 frame then, so I will use a similar one again (although this one is older and has logos of which I blocked out). I mean no copyright infringement, only demonstration.

I captured to BMP, then converted to JPG for the Forum to accept them. I compare the Hauppauge 1950, the ATI 750, and the ATI 600 at roughly the same bitrate. This was done late 2010 (when I had all three in my possession). I used Beyond TV PVR software for all three so any difference could be the same. All are in MPEG-2.

In my conclusions, the Hauppauge was least blocky, but also the softest and least detailed. The 600 had far more detail than the other two. The 750 was the worst in artifacts, inconsistency and audio even, although it seems to capture more detail than the Hauppauge.

Hauppauge 1950:


ATI 750:


ATI 600:

[PuzZLeR]

Jagabo, I'm not sure if this will be considered an AGC issue, but certainly one of inconsistency. I have several of these from the 750.

Again, this is from samples in late 2010 over a recurring station demonstrating pay-per-view options and ads. Again, it's in MPEG-2 and captured with Beyond TV.

Here's one from the ad for "Despicable Me". Again, no copyright infringement is intended, only demonstration.

There are three adjacent frames (you will notice the slight movement). Look at the color explosion and bleeding in the middle one. This happened lots with the ATI 750 when my other ones never did in the same setup using the same captures.

Frame 1:


Frame 2 (next one):


Frame 3 (next one):


Here is the clip with about 14 frames demonstrating it. It shows well played in WMP with Play -> Repeat enabled.

[PuzZLeR]

BTW, although I don't have the 750 any more, I still have the 10 minute segments from the analog TV captures back then. I don't want to exhaust the Forum, but if anyone wants another comparison shot or two, comparing the 600, 750 and Hauppauge, no problem.

I wish I had a 650 to test...

[LightWeightProducer]

I think dorenhagen is pushing sh** up a hill trying to get a MPEG2 hardware encoder that will result in as good or better quality than the Canopus bridge + separate MPEG2 encode. I've tried various MPEG2 encoders over the years and while the quality can be quite good, the results of my ADVC100 + software encoder have been better in one way or another. About the only thing the ADVC100 suffers from is chroma crosstalk in certain fine detail from composite sources. svideo elimates this problem.

Encoders based upon the Connexant CX2341X family support both CBR and VBR encoding, but in reality the rate averaging window for the VBR modes is very narrow with any content that requires an increase in bit rate sees the following GOP or two squiched down considerably in bit rate to keep at the target average rate. IMO these encoders are really only suitable for CBR at a rate higher than the peak required to avoid artifacting in the content. The encoder may also introduce colour / luminance misalignments too.

Hauppauge's HVR-22xx series should be avoided. The video decoder / MPEG encoder combination IMO sucks. The video out of the analogue section decoder appears far too soft with no effective way to adjust it, the Hauppauge driver does not configure the encoder to produce B frames (!) and the bit rate control is simply broken. The driver wants to output ~6Mbit/sec no matter what you tell it.

My two cents: If you want VBR (ie, space efficient) files, Canopus + HCENC is hard to beat. The encoding process doesn't take long on a modern PC even with HCENC configured for maximum quality.

[dorenhagen]

I for one would appreciate your posting further examples. Furthermore. it looks as though the 600 is manufactured under several different manufacturers. Which one are you recommending? I want to be careful and get exactly what you are recommending since it would ensure I get the best results.

Thanks again.

[PuzZLeR]

@LightWeigthtProducer: I agree that trying to make MPEG-2 better than DV for the same capture may seem crazy at first, but some will say they prefer MPEG-2 over DV for some captures.

Nevertheless, many are here looking for an MPEG-2 capture device that at least rivals it, since you can save many times the file size this way as a compromise. I believe the ATI 600 does just that and maybe more.

I will note too, by installing the WDM drivers for the ATI 600 you can capture to DV as well, such as with VirtualDub. Since DV is a fixed format, the 600 makes a Canopus bridge rather useless IMO.

Don't get me wrong, Canopus has good stuff, but is overpriced IMO and only does DV. The ATI 600 does both (as well as lossless/uncompressed, Divx/Xvid, WMV, even x264VFW (although can be CPU intensive here), etc).

Interesting you mention that a DV -> MPEG-2 encode produces a better result than a direct MPEG-2 capture. Even with a good MPEG-2 encoder I tend to initially disagree with this. However, I would be glad to run this test with the ATI 600 out of curiosity if so.

[PuzZLeR]

I for one would appreciate your posting further examples. Furthermore. it looks as though the 600 is manufactured under several different manufacturers. Which one are you recommending? I want to be careful and get exactly what you are recommending since it would ensure I get the best results.

Thanks again.

I have actually bought 3 of them as backups for concern that they wouldn't be made anymore. They were not expensive anyway.

My tests are based on the OEM versions still available from sellers today - no cheesy box or anything, just from the factory.

The name "Diamond" you may see is supposedly only a distributor of ATI-ware, so I doubt what they sell is any different. However, I don't know what the internal politics could be regarding this. I know that since AMD, ATI has been through alot of internal O/B issues, so I'm not sure what's Diamond's role in all this. I can't confirm for sure.

I also have not tried the PCI version, so I can't confirm on this either.

As for more samples - you got it. But that has to wait for another day or so. Check your calendar - aren't you busy tonight?

[LightWeightProducer]

Interesting you mention that a DV -> MPEG-2 encode produces a better result than a direct MPEG-2 capture. Even with a good MPEG-2 encoder I tend to initially disagree with this. However, I would be glad to run this test with the ATI 600 out of curiosity if so.

I can produce examples of the output of various hardware MPEG-2 encoder devices compared to the results of the Canopus + HCENC to demonstrate the point if need be.

[PuzZLeR]

Interesting you mention that a DV -> MPEG-2 encode produces a better result than a direct MPEG-2 capture. Even with a good MPEG-2 encoder I tend to initially disagree with this. However, I would be glad to run this test with the ATI 600 out of curiosity if so.

I can produce examples of the output of various hardware MPEG-2 encoder devices compared to the results of the Canopus + HCENC to demonstrate the point if need be.

Certainly.

I don't have time now, but I would like to test this myself too within the next couple of days in my setup. I will report back soon.

[dorenhagen]

I will note too, by installing the WDM drivers for the ATI 600 you can capture to DV as well, such as with VirtualDub. Since DV is a fixed format, the 600 makes a Canopus bridge rather useless IMO.

Don't get me wrong, Canopus has good stuff, but is overpriced IMO and only does DV. The ATI 600 does both (as well as lossless/uncompressed, Divx/Xvid, WMV, even x264VFW (although can be CPU intensive here), etc).

Thanks again for your great help. What is a "Canopus bridge"? What are WDM drivers? Sorry for the abject ignorance!

[jagabo]

This is unfounded my dear friend. To say you "think" is not to say you "know".

I thought I remembered someone around here saying the 600 had the same AGC problems as the 650 (which I have).

Jagabo, I'm not sure if this will be considered an AGC issue, but certainly one of inconsistency... Frame 2 (next one):

[Attachment 5633 - Click to enlarge]

That's not a AGC problem. The card lost several lines of one field and the rest of the field has shifted up. Crops from the two fields bob deinterlaced:



In your sample you improperly deinterlaced theYV12 frame causing the colors of the two fields to co-mingle.

The AGC problem I speak of usually occurs at shot changes. For example, when there is a dark shot and a sudden shift to a bright shot, the bright shot is over-bright (washing out the brightest parts), then over the next several frames it darkens to normal levels. This was from several VHS tapes I was testing on the 650. The other capture devices I tested (Hauppauge HD PVR, Hauppauge PVR-250, Panasonic DVD recorder, Toshiba VHS/DVD recorder combo) didn't have the problem.

[PuzZLeR]

I will note too, by installing the WDM drivers for the ATI 600 you can capture to DV as well, such as with VirtualDub. Since DV is a fixed format, the 600 makes a Canopus bridge rather useless IMO.

Don't get me wrong, Canopus has good stuff, but is overpriced IMO and only does DV. The ATI 600 does both (as well as lossless/uncompressed, Divx/Xvid, WMV, even x264VFW (although can be CPU intensive here), etc).

Thanks again for your great help. What is a "Canopus bridge"? What are WDM drivers? Sorry for the abject ignorance!

A Canopus "bridge" is just another name used to describe the capture devices from Canopus using firewire. This applies to the 55, 110, 300, etc.

Again, don't get me wrong, Canopus products are solid. No critisism. It's just that with the ATI 600 I see very little reason to own one (sold mine).

WDM (Window Driver Model). Without getting techincal, it's just a driver that can make the ATI 600 compatible with other platforms, such as VirtualDub, such as if you want to capture to DV (hence my selling of the Canopus). You can get them from AMD's web site for XP and Vista. Not sure if the Win7 ones work but reports are positive the Vista drivers work with Win7. (Personally, I am happy capturing with an XP box for as long as I can.)

They are a bit like TWAIN drivers in my opinion that scanners use to be a common standard in a way. If you install them for your scanner you can then use it in other applications, like Photoshop. At least that's an easy way to understand it in this context.

[jagabo]

I for one would appreciate your posting further examples.

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/329016-2001-2010-my-capture-cards-comparison-screen...=1#post2038006

But be sure to look for VHS caps too, since that's what you'll be capturing.

[PuzZLeR]

Hi Jagabo, thanks for your feedback regarding that sample.

I thought I remembered someone around here saying the 600 had the same AGC problems as the 650 (which I have).

It's just that bad reports of the 750 and 650 may hamper views of the 600, when in reality, the 600 is a totally different device. It's like two brothers being punished at school for misconduct, but even their third brother, who may have done nothing wrong, is punished too, due to family association not accomplice.

Well, I'm not married to the 600 and am willing to see if this is true or not true regardless. If you want to test a 650 against the 600 that can be arranged.

That's not a AGC problem. The card lost several lines of one field and the rest of the field has shifted up. Crops from the two fields bob deinterlaced ... In your sample you improperly deinterlaced theYV12 frame causing the colors of the two fields to co-mingle.

The AGC problem I speak of usually occurs at shot changes.

Got you. I didn't think it was an AGC problem myself, but got alot of that with the 750 - using the same system for the 600 and the Hauppauge which were not guilty of this.

However, I did no deinterlacing, or change any settings within BeyondTV, so I don't know how it kept happening. As well, there were alot of audio dropouts too.

Then again, this seems to be a common problem with the 750.