Best MPEG-2 Capture Device?

[dorenhagen]

I'm pretty discouraged. Try as I might, I cannot get the ATI TV Wonder to work. I used the method described here to get my W7 to finally recognize my card. But when I finally (!!) got the Catalyst Media Center to load I can't figure out how to get it to capture. I tried Nero 7 and it wouldn't recognize my ATI TV Wonder. Couldn't figure out how to get SageTV or Beyond TV to capture (this may be due to a failure to recognize the device though it seems SageTV does recognize it). What I thought would be a pretty simple project has become increasingly frustrating.

[usually_quiet]

I'm not sure what you tried already, so here are some basic instructions for using Catalyst Media Center.

1. Open Catalyst Media Center
2. Click "TV"
3. Click "Video Input"
4. Choose "Composite" or "S-Video", depending on what you want to use.
5. Click "Settings"
6. Click "Recording Settings"
7. Select the Recording Quality you want from the list. One of the pre-sets will do to get started.
8. Select the HDD and folder for your Recording Destination
9. Use the purple arrow button at the top of the window to go back to the "TV" window, which has a viewer. If a video source is connected you should see something there now.
10. To start the capture, click the button with the red dot on the toolbar that pops up when you move the curser.
11. To stop the capture, click the button with the black square on the same toolbar.

[Brad]

I see DNR in all those Hauppauge shots, especially all the smeared detail of the blinds in the background of the Dinner for Schmucks shot. I wonder if that can be turned down at all.

[PuzZLeR]

@Dorenhagen: Like I said, I use XP, an O/S where the 600 was originally meant for. However, I have heard many reports that it works fine with W7. Then again, sometimes it's a pain setting up a capture program at the beginning.

A good restart would be to skip any tuning of channels with SageTV, but to enter S-Video or Composite as a "channel" instead (I'm assuming you're going to use it with your Panny which has both). Did you try that? From the Main Menu run Setup -> Run Configuration Wizard and retry this.

[PuzZLeR]

I see DNR in all those Hauppauge shots, especially all the smeared detail of the blinds in the background of the Dinner for Schmucks shot. I wonder if that can be turned down at all.

The blinds in the background were telling to my eyes too.

They were TV captures so no DNR from a VCR, such as from a JVC, was used. I used only defaults with the Hauppauge.

There are no settings within WinTV, the software that came with it, to disable any of this AFAIK.

I also could not get it to work within GraphEdit, which should have some configurable settings.

SageTV has proc amp type settings as well:
Setup -> Setup Video Sources -> pick the Hauppauge device -> Color Calibration
I've tried different settings with "Sharpness" outside of the default 127 and it made zero difference. But it worked with the ATI 600 to make adjustments.

Unless I'm wrong, I personally think the Conexant CX23417 ROM chip under the hood of the Hauppauge is exactly that - a ROM chip. It is what it is at its defaults with no way to change them and that's how it's optimized for high processing stand-alone hardware captures.

This is why I'm starting to think that hardware encoding that alleviates PC resources may be overrated.

[jagabo]

I see DNR in all those Hauppauge shots, especially all the smeared detail of the blinds in the background of the Dinner for Schmucks shot. I wonder if that can be turned down at all.

On the other hand, all the ATI 600 shots are over sharpened. I assume that can be turned down though.

There are no settings within WinTV, the software that came with it, to disable any of this AFAIK.

I don't know about the 1950, but the Hauppauge PVR-250 has noise reduction filters you can control -- but not via WinTV. You have to use a third party program. Unfortunately, Hauppauge seems to remove more and more controls with each new release of its software.

Unless I'm wrong, I personally think the Conexant CX23417 ROM chip under the hood of the Hauppauge is exactly that - a ROM chip.

It's a fully programmable MPEG 2 encoder chip.

http://www.conexant.com/products/entry.jsp?id=455

[dorenhagen]

usually_quiet - thanks. Unfortunately, I get the following: TV function cannot be opened! So I seem to be stymied with the ATI capture and the CMC!

However, thanks.

[usually_quiet]

usually_quiet - thanks. Unfortunately, I get the following: TV function cannot be opened! So I seem to be stymied with the ATI capture and the CMC!

However, thanks.

I used to get the message "TV function cannot be opened" at times too. I never determined what causes it, and it hasn't happened recently. Sorry to say this, but analog capture on a computer is not particularly straight forward. The PCI and PCIe versions of your card use different drivers, and might have been easier to set up.

You could try building a graph with GraphStudio. This is one I built for my Theater 650 PCIe card.




I don't know the names of the ATI XBar and Stream Analog Capture filters specific to your card, but perhaps they will be close to the ones for mine. I think Catalyst Media Center provided the video encoder. Installing DVRMSToolbox provided the Moonlight M71 Muxer and the related Moonlight DumpPos filter (the last filter in the chain, which creates the capture file). Microsoft provided the VBI Codec filter, if you want to encode closed captions. Either DVRMSToolbox or GraphStudio provided the Monogram AC3 Encoder, I'm not sure which.

1. Open GraphStudio.

2. Click on "Graph" in the menu bar, then "Insert Filter", on the drop-down menu.

3. A dialog window will appear. There is a drop down list near the top left corner of this window that provides access to various filters. Open the drop-down list.

4. Go down the list and click on WDM Streaming Crossbar, hopefully you will see something like "ATI AVStream Xbar". Add that as the first filter in the graph.

5.Open the drop-down list again. Look for "WDM Streaming Capture", and click on it. You should see something like "ATI AVStream Analog Capture" Add that as the second filter in the graph.

6. Open the drop-down list again. Look for "DirectShow Filters", and click on it. You should be able to find the rest of the filters in the graph if you have the the installed the software mentioned previously.

7. Drag and drop to connect the pins as shown.

8. Configure the properties in the XBar filter to use the inputs you plan to connect for capture.

9. Configure the properties in the ATI MPEG Video Encoder filter for the encoding setting.

10. Configure Moonlight M71 Muxer's properties to output either a program stream or a transport stream.

11. Once you have the graph and the hardware set up, click the green arrow in the toolbar to start the capture. The square stop button turns red when the capture begins. Clicking on it stops the capture.

[dorenhagen]

Thanks again, usually_quiet

[PuzZLeR]

@Dorenhagen: This may sound simplistic, but with CMC, I remember I couldn't find certain dropdown options at first because the interface wasn't clear in its scrolling. Then, when I realized I could scroll, I saw more options, such as S-Video and Composite. Look again.

[PuzZLeR]

I see DNR in all those Hauppauge shots, especially all the smeared detail of the blinds in the background of the Dinner for Schmucks shot. I wonder if that can be turned down at all.

On the other hand, all the ATI 600 shots are over sharpened. I assume that can be turned down though.

I had them at the defaults there. And yes, you can turn down the sharpening, like, with VirtualDub. Even SageTV, which I use now for MPEG-2 pretty much, has a proc amp and the Sharpening feature is fully adjustable (and works) and can be even sharper too as well but, as you know, anything much sharper than that starts to reveal the familiar ugly artifacts associated with sharpening.

There are no settings within WinTV, the software that came with it, to disable any of this AFAIK.

I don't know about the 1950, but the Hauppauge PVR-250 has noise reduction filters you can control -- but not via WinTV. You have to use a third party program. Unfortunately, Hauppauge seems to remove more and more controls with each new release of its software.

I have honestly tried almost everything and, other than conventional stuff like bitrate, rez, etc, have been unable to change anything else with the 1950's PQ. Even the proc amp in SageTV had no effect on the 1950 (when it did with the ATI 600). I do believe many features are set in stone, not only with the 1950, but with more and more capture products today in favor of less complicated, and consumer-friendly, type settings.

Unless I'm wrong, I personally think the Conexant CX23417 ROM chip under the hood of the Hauppauge is exactly that - a ROM chip.

It's a fully programmable MPEG 2 encoder chip.

http://www.conexant.com/products/entry.jsp?id=455

I took a look at the link and, yes, you're correct. But the one embedded with the 1950 may not be as flexible. The last part reads:

"To reduce the overall cost of the CX23417 and achieve the highest video quality, Conexant devoted significant engineering resources to determining the optimal balance between hardware and software implementation of these processing improvements. "

This to me sounds like a fixed product at the delivery stage. I guess their "optimal balance" was faster processing, less blockiness at the cost of some detail retention.

[usually_quiet]

usually_quiet - thanks. Unfortunately, I get the following: TV function cannot be opened! So I seem to be stymied with the ATI capture and the CMC!

However, thanks.

After further thought, I came up with one more thing to try. Have you attempted troubleshooting compatibility for Catalyst Media Center? I remember now that I am using Catalyst Media Center with Vista as the compatibility mode and user account control Run as administrator. I also installed the patch to bring CMC up to the latest version, 1.0.4310.

At the end of the process Windows 7 will warn that Catalyst Media Center is incompatible, but even so, I am able to do analog captures with it.

[dorenhagen]

usually_quiet, the patch is no longer available on the CMC website. Did everything else to no avail. I'll keep looking.

[usually_quiet]

usually_quiet, the patch is no longer available on the CMC website. Did everything else to no avail. I'll keep looking.

I take it this means that you could not build a working capture graph using GraphStudio either?

[dorenhagen]

usually_quiet, the patch is no longer available on the CMC website. Did everything else to no avail. I'll keep looking.

I take it this means that you could not build a working capture graph using GraphStudio either?

I'm sorry to say that it beyond my current capabilities!

[usually_quiet]

I take it this means that you could not build a working capture graph using GraphStudio either?

I'm sorry to say that it beyond my current capabilities!

What is giving you difficulty? Also do you have a 64-bit or 32-bit version of Windows 7? Your computer details consist of "PC", which isn't of much use to anyone trying to help you.

[dorenhagen]

64-bit W7 with 8GB memory and 1TB storage.

Thanks.

[jagabo]

64-bit W7 with 8GB memory

Lots of older hardware drivers have trouble when you go over 4GB of memory.

[usually_quiet]

64-bit W7 with 8GB memory and 1TB storage.

Thanks.

I can't find them anymore, but I recall seeing reports that Catalyst Media Center could not be made to work with 64-bit versions of Windows 7.

It seems like information related to the TV Wonder 600 USB as well as information about Catalyst Media Center is disappearing. The link I posted a few days back http://forums.amd.com/game/messagevi...hreadid=131326 about finding Windows 7 drivers for the TV Wonder 600 USB is dead.

Still wondering what problems you are encountering when trying to use GraphStudio. It has a 64-bit version
64-bit graphstudio64.exe (1918 KB) , and I haven't seen reports about it not working with Windows 7 64-bit. Hopefully you installed 64-bit drivers for your TV Wonder 600 USB. There is a better chance that those will work.

[PuzZLeR]

All three versions of the 600's WDM drivers: XP, Vista, W7 come/came as 32bit/64bit in the same installer package. Then again, AMD/ATI may have killed links in order to encourage their newer (and crappier) models instead. I capture with a dedicated XP-box, but I downloaded all three just in case my other PCs may need it as well.

@Dorenhagen: Just thought of something. Did you by some chance install the trial version of the "SageTV Recorder"? If so, forget it, it's useless IMO. It failed with every one of my devices too.

If so, then download/install the trial of the full SageTV version instead. (The somewhat higher price will be so worth it if it works.) Then from the Main Menu run "Setup" -> "Run Configuration Wizard". The important thing to note here is that avoid tuning any channels. Just enter your "channel" as either S-Video or Composite (what you'll use from your Panny's output). This way SageTV should capture then - it will think and treat it as an analog TV channel for the capture.

http://www.sagetv.com/download.html

[usually_quiet]

All three versions of the 600's WDM drivers: XP, Vista, W7 come/came as 32bit/64bit in the same installer package. Then again, AMD/ATI may have killed links in order to encourage their newer (and crappier) models instead. I capture with a dedicated XP-box, but I downloaded all three just in case my other PCs may need it as well.

The TV Wonder 600 USB may not use the same WDM drivers for Windows 7 as the PCI and PCIe versions.

There are Vista drivers for it here (Sometimes Vista drivers work for Windows 7 too. I don't know if that is true in this case.) http://support.amd.com/us/gpudownload/windows/Pages/tvwonder600usb_vista.aspx

... but there is an advisory on AMD's website that specifically said no Windows 7 drivers would be released for the USB version http://support.amd.com/us/kbarticles/Pages/GPU39_ATITVWonderDrivers.aspx

and it's not on the list here http://support.amd.com/us/gpudownload/windows/Pages/tvtuner_win7.aspx?type=2.5&product...ostype=Windows

[jagabo]

I'd consider one of these:

http://www.amazon.com/Kingwin-3-5IN-Sata-Mobile-Rack/dp/B00126U0VA/

And a separate 32 bit XP boot disk for capturing.

[LightWeightProducer]

I've done up some samples using a cheapo XTV 2.0 USB grabber + HCEnc and a Hauppauge PVR150. As time wears on I'll put up samples from other hardware encoders and a Canopus ADVC100 + HCEnc. The original broadcast MPEG2 is available for comparison

If someone wants to download all the clips and stick them up on a file download site, I won't argue.

The clips are named with the bitrate, ie 3.mpg = 3Mbit/sec 'CBR'. 4-6.mpg = 4Mbit/sec av, 6 peak. Since HCEnc isn't intended to produce CBR streams the average and peak rate was set to the same. This limits HCEnc to the peak which will give something to compare against the hardware encoders CBR at the same rate.

The PVR150 produces fairly respectable output at high bit rates but quickly falls in a hole at low rates. The VBR mode is essentially pointless with the very narrow rate averaging window used.

ftp://58.105.237.97/

[PuzZLeR]

All three versions of the 600's WDM drivers: XP, Vista, W7 come/came as 32bit/64bit in the same installer package. Then again, AMD/ATI may have killed links in order to encourage their newer (and crappier) models instead. I capture with a dedicated XP-box, but I downloaded all three just in case my other PCs may need it as well.

The TV Wonder 600 USB may not use the same WDM drivers for Windows 7 as the PCI and PCIe versions.

There are Vista drivers for it here (Sometimes Vista drivers work for Windows 7 too. I don't know if that is true in this case.) http://support.amd.com/us/gpudownload/windows/Pages/tvwonder600usb_vista.aspx

... but there is an advisory on AMD's website that specifically said no Windows 7 drivers would be released for the USB version http://support.amd.com/us/kbarticles/Pages/GPU39_ATITVWonderDrivers.aspx

and it's not on the list here http://support.amd.com/us/gpudownload/windows/Pages/tvtuner_win7.aspx?type=2.5&product...ostype=Windows

Yes, the W7 drivers I downloaded have "unified" in the file name instead of "t600usb" like the XP and Vista ones do.

But I did mention it earlier in the thread that W7 users have indeed reported the Vista drivers work just fine with the USB model on a W7 box. So yes, this is a case where Vista drivers will work with W7. Unfortunately, I've only tested them on an XP so I can't confirm.

I see here one thread does confirm this for 32:
http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12693&postcount=7

There's more info on the 600 in the full thread too.
http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/showthread.php/help-deciding-tbc-2441.html

I've seen it confirmed elsewhere too, but when memory returns hopefully I can post something for 64 too.

[jagabo]

I've done up some samples using a cheapo XTV 2.0 USB grabber + HCEnc and a Hauppauge PVR150. As time wears on I'll put up samples from other hardware encoders and a Canopus ADVC100 + HCEnc. The original broadcast MPEG2 is available for comparison

Chloe is my favorite! A broadcast MPEG2 file probably isn't the best source though. It's likely already full of macroblocks and low on detail. (I haven't download it yet.) On the other hand, I suppose it's typical of what many people will be capturing.

[LightWeightProducer]

On the other hand, I suppose it's typical of what many people will be capturing.

That's the intent - to show how the encoders handle content they are likely to be used to grab.

[Brad]

I can confirm that the trick posted in that thread linked earlier does work for the ATI 600 USB on Win7 x64 as I followed it months ago. I think there was a dialog box I had to accept while installing regarding driver signing (because the generic eMPIA INF file has to be modified by hand). That said, I haven't and won't install CMC since MPEG-2 capture doesn't interest me.

[dorenhagen]

I can confirm that the trick posted in that thread linked earlier does work for the ATI 600 USB on Win7 x64 as I followed it months ago. I think there was a dialog box I had to accept while installing regarding driver signing (because the generic eMPIA INF file has to be modified by hand). That said, I haven't and won't install CMC since MPEG-2 capture doesn't interest me.

Which thread? Thanks.

[Brad]

The AMD forum post that's a dead link now... I'll quote it since I saved the page months back. The specific driver link given is out-of-date as there have been several revisions since then. You don't need to install the Vista driver as "step 0" despite what he says -- just select the appropriate yellow exclamation'd device in the Device Manager.

The current link for eMPIA's driver page is http://www.empiatech.com.tw/IC_support.htm as of 2013-04-16 and the driver is BDA_082311_UAC.

I noticed yesterday that, after promising in a posting late last year that it would happen some time in the 1st quarter of 2010, AMD/ATI has changed its tune about making Windows 7 drivers available for the TV Wonder 600 USB tuner (and others) and now says in a recent posting (see http://support.amd.com/us/kbarticles/Pages/GPU39_ATITVWonderDrivers.aspx) that "Windows 7 Tuner drivers for the products listed below are not available. There are no plans for driver development at this time". Bummer!
Thankfully, the 600 USB tuner is based on the USB2883 device from EETI/eMPIA (http://home.eeti.com.tw/) and they've had Windows 7 WHQL-certified (both 32-bit and 64-bit) for the generic device since late December 2009. Given the minimal amount of work AMD would have to do to package these drivers for the 600 USB tuner, their apparent decision not to do it is rather baffling. Anyway, it's easy enough to make the eMPIA driver work (the only real issue is the fact that the Plug-n-Play ID of the ATI device is not the same as the eMPIA generic device):
(1) From the EETI home page given above, click the "Video/Audio Drivers" link, then download the driver package labeled "BDA_120209_UAC" (the 12/02/09 date could change in future revisions). Here's a direct link to the current version of this package: http://home.eeti.com.tw/web20/drivers/IC_drivers/BDA_WHQL_Standard_Installshield_120209_UAC.zip.
(2) Unzip the download to a temporary folder and run the included Setup.exe. This really only extracts the driver package to "\Program Files\USB_video_device" (or "\Program Files (x86)\USB_video_device" on 64-bit Windows). Ignore the request to restart, it's just designed to let the system find the driver upon reboot, but it's not yet ready for that.
(3) In the above "USB_video_device" folder, navigate to the "Driver\Driver32" or "Driver\Driver64" subfolder (depending on platform) and find the file EMBDA.INF or EMBDA64.INF. Open the file in notepad and find the line
%USB2883.DeviceDesc% = USB2883,USB\VID_EB1A&PID_2883
Copy the line and insert the copy as a new identical line below the original line, then in this new line change "VID_EB1A&PID_2883" (the eMPIA PnP ID for the device) to "VID_0438&PID_B002" (the ATI PnP ID for the TV Wonder 600 USB). Save the updated .inf file.
(4) Now open Device Manager and find the ATI TV Wonder 600 USB device -- it should be there under "Sound, video and game controllers" if you've previously installed the Vista version of the 600 USB driver downloaded from ATI (your only option up till now -- if you haven't done this, do this first as step (0)). Right-click the device and select "Update Driver Software", then click "Browse my computer for driver software" then "Let me pick from a list of device drivers on my computer". On the next screen, click "Have Disk..." and browse to the folder containing the modified .inf file from the previous step and click OK. The resulting dialog will offer a driver called "USB 2883 Device" and a warning that "This driver is not digitally signed!". Actually, the driver and all its files are signed, but the modification of the .inf file is enough to make the driver be considered unsigned -- This can safely be ignored, so select the driver and click Next, accepting any further warnings and finish the driver update wizard.
(5) Reboot now and confirm that the driver loaded properly at restart by going back to Device Manager and making sure that the "USB 2883 Device" (Device Manager's new name for your ATI tuner) does not have a yellow or red warning icon. The tuner should work perfectly in Windows Media Center (and also in ATI's Catalyst Media Center from the original CD, updated via the update available for download from ATI).
By the way, as I went through this process on 64-bit Windows 7, I was convinced I'd also at some point have to take extraordinary steps to force Windows to accept the unsigned driver since it is my understanding that 64-bit Windows 7 requires signed drivers (there are ways to put Windows in a "driver testing" mode to allow the loading of unsigned drivers), but to my surprise the system is quite happy to hum along with this "unsigned" driver. I'm not sure whether this leniency is the result of the fact that all the files that make up the driver are in fact signed (as you can tell from the "certificate" icon next to each file in the driver details dialog of the device's Properties in Device Manager) or whether a USB tuner device is not considered sufficiently critical to a system's operation to warrant throwing a fit over its driver (doubtful - a bad driver can bring down a system no matter what its purpose), but there you have it.
Another note for those who may be concerned that the "generic" eMPIA driver may not take into account some ATI-specific customization of the USB2883 device in the TV Wonder 600: I've done a comparison of the ATI Vista driver for the device and the new Windows 7-capable driver from eMPIA, specifically their .inf files which contain (among other things) a slew of Registry "tweaks" that define device behavior and various options: except for a very few new items in the Windows 7 version, all the existing settings are identical between the two driver versions. There is also a .rom file in both drivers that, I surmise, might contain some firmware code for the device - though named differently, the two versions of the file are bit-for-bit identical.
Good luck,
Jacques.

[harley2ride]

ADS Pyro AV/Link will do it with Ulead Studio 11. Not sure what else it will do mpeg2 with.