s-video artifacts?

[jmac698]

The solution is quite simple; use the composite connection. It's going to magically remove the dots for you. You are hardly gaining anything by reading s-video output from S-VHS, as appealing as it may sound; the color resolution of tape is really poor, so no loss there. The luma is messed up anyhow. How does the luma only of the composite look? Try putting greyscale() into avisynth.

[zerowalker]

Well here is a clip, you can find out yourself
I don´t know what you mean with magically disappearing, but well, S-video should beat up Composite pretty hard with the color bleed and dots hanging around color edges.

[2Bdecided]

The solution is quite simple; use the composite connection. It's going to magically remove the dots for you. You are hardly gaining anything by reading s-video output from S-VHS, as appealing as it may sound; the color resolution of tape is really poor, so no loss there. The luma is messed up anyhow.

That's not universally true. My (PAL) S-VHS camcorder tapes look far better captured via S-video than composite because it avoids lume/chroma interference on fine detail.

S-VHS certainly has enough luma fine detail to give rise to rainbows and other unwanted chroma artefacts if captured through composite.

Depends on the quality of the composite capture. Remembering comb filtering for NTSC is trivial; comparable filtering for PAL is far more complex.

Cheers,
David.

[zerowalker]

Yeah, PAL is suffering from all issues there is for some reason;S
But, i was wondering a thing, let´s say a TV series was broadcast in, let´s say 2000, was it broadcast from a VCR or what;O?
Cause i can´t see it coming from a VCR and look good after being sent through the entire country with air and ground cables all over the place;S

[sanlyn]

For tape, broadcasters use big console units or pro-grade tape players, editors, calibrators, etc., that you and I couldn't possibly afford.

[zerowalker]

But is it a normal VCR tape?
Or some Pro-Grade Tape as you named players?

[sanlyn]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Videotape
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D5_HD

[zerowalker]

Oh, nice;D

So it´s like the Cinema?
They have special tapes too i presume?
With old movies etc?

[sanlyn]

I know as much about all that as you do. I just look it up on the internet.

I've been in small movie houses where it was obvious that the show being projected was a plain DVD disc. On a cruise ship three years ago I went to the onboard "free" movies in one of lounges; those movies were on standard retail VHS tape, played with an Aiwa VCR fed into a projector device onto a small, home movie screen mounted on a tripod that fell over every time the ship took a sharp turn. Talk about a rip-off.

[zerowalker]

Well i don´t find anything when i search XD
But thanks alot;D

Haha, perfect movie cruiser

[2Bdecided]

But is it a normal VCR tape?
Or some Pro-Grade Tape as you named players?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-1_(Sony)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betacam#Digital_Betacam
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-3_(video)

good summary...
http://users.tkk.fi/u/iisakkil/videoformats.html

less good, but with pretty pictures...
http://www.cybercollege.com/tvp048.htm

Cheers,
David.

[jmac698]

What you want is to look at the commissioning standards of TV networks.
http://www.starimage.co.uk/eastoverhill/techref/technical_delivery_standards.pdf

BBC requires D3 for 4:3 programs or Digibeta for 16:9 anamorphic programs. They have a quality system from 1-5. The mention that to get the highest grades, telecine must be motion interpolated or sped up film.

Yes it's just a tape, it's supposed to be high quality tape and only used once; to record the submission.
The tape is basically just a way to deliver a file, a lightly compressed digital SD file.

[2Bdecided]

What you want is to look at the commissioning standards of TV networks.
http://www.starimage.co.uk/eastoverhill/techref/technical_delivery_standards.pdf

BBC requires D3 for 4:3 programs or Digibeta for 16:9 anamorphic programs.

That's way out of date. D3 is effectively dead. In the rare instance that someone produces an SD 4x3 programme, they expect it on Digibeta. If from an archive source, they'd quite like it if you'd used something like a transform decoder to convert the PAL composite into component.

Most BBC commissioning is HD these days...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/commissioning/tv/production/delivery/hd-production-delivery.shtml
http://www.bbc.co.uk/guidelines/dq/pdf/tv/TechnicalDeliveryStandardsFileBBCv2.pdf
...with file-based submission on its way.

Cheers,
David.

[zerowalker]

forgot the thanks, sorry!


And a thing, can i get an example of Composite, and S-video via DVD Player?

[zerowalker]

http://www.tradera.com/philips-dvd-inspelare-i-link-smartalgo-origin-forpckn-divx-aukt...0206_149025475

Is this one compatible as a Passthrough TBC S-Video?

Thanks

[Mini-Me]

http://www.tradera.com/philips-dvd-inspelare-i-link-smartalgo-origin-forpckn-divx-aukt...0206_149025475

Is this one compatible as a Passthrough TBC S-Video?

Thanks

I'm not sure, because I can't read the language. The following Philips models have an excellent passthrough TBC:

• DVDR3475 (I own one)
• DVDR3575 (According to Davideck; this is why I bought a DVDR3475 in the first place!)
• DVDR3576, most likely (it's almost identical to the DVDR3575)

HOWEVER, they do have one irritating flaw: Their automatic gain control can make the picture flicker a lot if the input white levels are too high. The only known way to fix this is to reduce the contrast of the incoming signal with a proc amp. A proc amp is probably unnecessary if you have contrast controls on your VCR or if it consistently outputs a tame enough signal in the first place...but I'm not sure if any such VCR's exist, and proc amps can be pretty expensive. The cheapest one that seems well regarded around here is the Vidicraft proc amp, which is currently going on ebay for around $70-75 shipped in the US.

[zerowalker]

It´s Swedish

But well i am probably taking another rude as Jagabo told me it probably won´t do me any good to passthrough to S-video, even though the TBC may be a good call.

And on my current VCR i can´t control any amps i think so that brings it further down;S

[Mini-Me]

It´s Swedish

But well i am probably taking another rude as Jagabo told me it probably won´t do me any good to passthrough to S-video, even though the TBC may be a good call.

And on my current VCR i can´t control any amps i think so that brings it further down;S

After I made my post, I started to realize it wasn't Dutch, and my next guess was Danish...but you found me out before I edited out my guesswork entirely.

I'm pretty sure the TBC will work with S-Video, but I can't check for sure right now, because my only VCR with S-Video output is in the shop at the moment. The proc amp issue is probably your biggest hurdle...as an alternative, have you taken a look at the Toshiba DR series or the RD-XS series of DVD recorders? The RD-XS models are known to have a pretty good line TBC and good signal transparency, and the cheaper DR series shares so many of the same electronics that it's likely to as well, according to orsetto. Toshiba DR-series models with broken burners supposedly sell for pretty cheap, too.

[zerowalker]

hehe;D

Well the problem is, finding a good PAL VCR with S-Video that is good (doesn´t have noise artifacts).
That is the greatest problem of all currently, but will look into the TBC passthrough if needed, but first i need to fix S-video as upsampling
wasn´t the way to go.

[sanlyn]

But well i am probably taking another rude as Jagabo told me it probably won´t do me any good to passthrough to S-video, even though the TBC may be a good call.

And on my current VCR i can´t control any amps i think so that brings it further down;S

Not sure what you mean by s-video as pass-thru not helping anything. As I understand it, a composite input has to separate luma and chroma at the input stage. If you again output to composite as well, the luma/chroma are combined again, but s-video output keeps them separate and therefore less troublesome. A DVD recorder with y/c comb filters on composite input (e.g., Toshiba) helps even more.

I'm pretty sure the TBC will work with S-Video, but I can't check for sure right now, because my only VCR with S-Video output is in the shop at the moment. The proc amp issue is probably your biggest hurdle...as an alternative, have you taken a look at the Toshiba DR series or the RD-XS series of DVD recorders? The RD-XS models are known to have a pretty good line TBC and good signal transparency, and the cheaper DR series shares so many of the same electronics that it's likely to as well, according to orsetto. Toshiba DR-series models with broken burners supposedly sell for pretty cheap, too.

Used RD-XS Toshibas are prized and sell at at extremely high prices. I see used RD-XS34 RD/XS-35 on Amazon occasionally for $800 USD and higher. You might get lucky; they did have optical drive burnout and their hard drives didn't go forever, but you don't need those for pass thru. The lower RD-K2/K4, etc. (sometimes the model numbers are shown as "RD", DR", don't know why), are smaller units without hard drives or extra built-in editing software and sell for much less. They had the same image, noise, y/c filters and tbc as the "XS" hard drive units. I'm using both for pass-thru, the output looks exactly the same from all my Toshibas.

hehe;D

Well the problem is, finding a good PAL VCR with S-Video that is good (doesn´t have noise artifacts).
That is the greatest problem of all currently, but will look into the TBC passthrough if needed, but first i need to fix S-video as upsampling
wasn´t the way to go.

I don't know what you mean by s-video upsampling. Anyway, a tbc-equipped VCR with s-video output isn't absolutely necessary. Those tbc's are coupled with digital processors that generate artifacts. The processing is enabled whenever tbc is turned on; turn it off, and you disable the processing but the video will look worse. Few of these tbc-equipped players will track old tapes very well. There's nothing wrong with using the composite output from a VCR and sending it thru the s-video output of a DVD recorder as pass thru. The s-video circuits in most name-brand DVD machines perform the conversion quite well. Toshiba looks cleaner to me than the old Panasonics or SONYs.

I've seen good results in forums from captures made in Europe with Aiwa VCR's (really, they look like Panasonics to me). Some of those are semi-pro units with multiple formats and are expensive, but Aiwa made some good basic European VCR's in the 1990's. I see them on eBay occasionally.

[jagabo]

Not sure what you mean by s-video as pass-thru not helping anything. As I understand it, a composite input has to separate luma and chroma at the input stage. If you again output to composite as well, the luma/chroma are combined again, but s-video output keeps them separate and therefore less troublesome. A DVD recorder with y/c comb filters on composite input (e.g., Toshiba) helps even more.

In another thread he was talking about using the DVD recorder as a composite to s-video converter, and whether that would work better than capturing composite directly with his capture card. I told him that it would depend on which device had the better Y/C separator.

[sanlyn]

True. It would seem optimal to start with s-video in the first place, but that's another story. My experience with really really really cheap machines is that their s-video output didn't look any better than their other circuits.

[zerowalker]

sanlyn can you give me an example of direct composite to your card, and composite-s-video through a DVD Recorder please?

And well, my card is very bad with the Y/C Separator in my eyes, as i get lines of dot crawl that isn´t even possible to reduce.

And well, as i see it S-video from the start must be the best, but of course cheap stuff is different, i want quality, but not a fortune.
But if i can see some examples i might be able to see if it´s worth it

[jagabo]

Various SVHS decks:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/232830-Test-of-various-VCRs-Image-Quality-from-VHS-...%28Big-Pics%29

DVD recorder as TBC:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/319420-Who-uses-a-DVD-recorder-as-a-line-TBC-and-what-do-you-use

Caps from several different devices:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/326560-Which-is-better-usb-stick-vhs-cap-or-hd-pvr-...=1#post2023227

[zerowalker]

Most if not all of those are NTSC right?
As i need PAL, and it´s well, alot harder to get S-video and stuff here thanks to SCART;O

I got a list though: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-restore/1567-vcr-buying-guide.html

Seems promising, so i am trying to get a hold of any of the recommended ones for PAL

[Mini-Me]

Used RD-XS Toshibas are prized and sell at at extremely high prices. I see used RD-XS34 RD/XS-35 on Amazon occasionally for $800 USD and higher. You might get lucky; they did have optical drive burnout and their hard drives didn't go forever, but you don't need those for pass thru. The lower RD-K2/K4, etc. (sometimes the model numbers are shown as "RD", DR", don't know why), are smaller units without hard drives or extra built-in editing software and sell for much less. They had the same image, noise, y/c filters and tbc as the "XS" hard drive units. I'm using both for pass-thru, the output looks exactly the same from all my Toshibas.

orsetto guessed something similar, but your confirmation is very helpful! Do you know if this applies to any/every model with RD or DR at the beginning of the model number?

I'm shocked to hear that the XS-25/XS-32/XS-34/XS-35/XS-52/XS-54 and such go for $800 and higher: That must be new in box, right? I usually see used ones go for between $200 and $300 on ebay, and you can pick one up right now for about $200 shipped at an Amazon reseller. I just found a much better deal on a supposedly excellent condition unit complete with box, remote, and instructions...but otherwise I'd be looking for a cheap RD/DR-model unit with a broken burner to compare to my DVDR3475.

hehe;D

Well the problem is, finding a good PAL VCR with S-Video that is good (doesn´t have noise artifacts).
That is the greatest problem of all currently, but will look into the TBC passthrough if needed, but first i need to fix S-video as upsampling
wasn´t the way to go.

I don't know what you mean by s-video upsampling. Anyway, a tbc-equipped VCR with s-video output isn't absolutely necessary. Those tbc's are coupled with digital processors that generate artifacts. The processing is enabled whenever tbc is turned on; turn it off, and you disable the processing but the video will look worse. Few of these tbc-equipped players will track old tapes very well. There's nothing wrong with using the composite output from a VCR and sending it thru the s-video output of a DVD recorder as pass thru. The s-video circuits in most name-brand DVD machines perform the conversion quite well. Toshiba looks cleaner to me than the old Panasonics or SONYs.

This is good advice. VHS is recorded with separate luma and chroma, so if all other things are equal, using S-Video straight from the VCR is better than using composite and splitting luma/chroma into S-Video with a Y/C comb filter...but it should only be a minor consideration. Some of these comb filters are VERY good and create S-Video output almost as well-separated as the output from an S-Video equipped VCR.

zerowalker, if you use one of the aforementioned Toshiba DVD recorders as a TBC, you can feed it composite input and receive high quality S-Video as output. sanlyn has only good things to say about its Y/C comb filter, and my own DVDR3475 has a pretty good filter as well. I'm using the original camcorder for to play back my VHS-C tapes: It only has composite output, but the DVDR375 seems to eliminate all of the dot crawl and most of the rainbowing. The Toshiba's filter might be even better. In the end, I can get better quality from my composite camcorder than I can from my S-Video VCR!

[zerowalker]

So does the DVDR3475, work good, no contrast bug?
And does it work with PAL?

Thanks

[Mini-Me]

So does the DVDR3475, work good, no contrast bug?
And does it work with PAL?

Thanks

Unfortunately, no: There IS a contrast bug. It's fixable with a proc amp, but it's probably cheaper to go with a Toshiba DR or RD series model if one is available to you.

I really don't know if there's a PAL version or not though (for either): I've never used PAL for anything, so I've never had to go looking!

[zerowalker]

Ah okay;S
well the problem is that PAL is pretty messed up, is there proof it will even work;S?
As ntsc is much more stable than PAL;S

[Mini-Me]

You can probably factor this into two questions:

• Do the Y/C comb filters on PAL equipment work as well as the ones on NTSC equipment? Hopefully someone with PAL experience can weigh in here.
• Are there PAL versions of the DVD recorders we're talking about?

Hopefully the answer to both is yes, but I can't say...