s-video artifacts?

[VCRcomp]

For starters, I connected Luma signal alone, without Chroma (Chroma output pins on VCR's s-video connector were totally disconnected). I tried two JVC S-VHS decks. Same problem :/

Must be the VCR design problem. But then again, although FS200 (AG1980) doesn't have a blue colored menu for comparison, same artifacts can be seen with certain material from VHS.

I wonder what's going on.

[deadhead_]

Why you swap vhs decks? Try to replace VCR with DVD player and see what you will get. EXCLUDE all devices between DVD player and your capture card. If you see no artefacts, add TBC and re-check....

The type fo errors on your screenshots is CROSSTALK, you can find similar images in google.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crosstalk_%28electronics%29

here's your problem sample
http://avisynth.org.ru/docs/russian/pictures/externalfilters/gcomb_off_election.png

You can also use GuavaComp to reduce effect

[VCRcomp]

I only swapped two decks to make sure the deck itself isn't an issue. I already tried with DVD player and there were no artifacts, even with TBC1000 in the chain. I guess the crosstalk must be "happening" inside the VCR.

[lordsmurf]

Replace the cables.
I just finished tossing out four sets -- for this exact reason.

The "skip the TBC" advice is ridiculous, FYI. (Unless it's ONLY for testing, to remove variables.)

If it's not the cables, then it's simply the way the tape was recorded.
I've mentioned before on this site and others that composite can be better for some tapes.

The JVC blue screen is full of signal errors -- pay it no attention.
It has no effect on the tapes.

[themaster1]

Here is what i get with the new ntsc jvc vcr i just bought:


Exactly the same than my multistandard jvc Vcr and i bought a new s-video "monster cable thx certified"

[VCRcomp]

Yesterday I tried playing the very same tapes in Sony VHS VCR, connected directly to a Samsung CRT TV through SCART. I doubt the connection was s-video. Same artifacts appeared as with JVCs which I think can only mean that the annoying artifacts are a part of the tape recording. I think generally by using COMPOSITE video connection, the artifacts become softer, but are still present. I guess I'll have to live with them.

[NJRoadfan]

Yesterday I tried playing the very same tapes in Sony VHS VCR, connected directly to a Samsung CRT TV through SCART. I doubt the connection was s-video. Same artifacts appeared as with JVCs which I think can only mean that the annoying artifacts are a part of the tape recording. I think generally by using COMPOSITE video connection, the artifacts become softer, but are still present. I guess I'll have to live with them.

I just did a batch of home movies for someone. All the tapes exhibited a "grid" pattern in areas with solid yellow or red colors, even when using the RF out of the VCR into my CRT TV. I was suspecting the VCR, but it was indeed the tape and the artifacts looked suspiciously like crap comb filtering. The source camcorder was a circa 1986 NEC with CCD imager.

[zerowalker]

So, is there any solution?
I mean, Avisynth filtering maybe etc?
Thanks

[themaster1]

Have you tried neat video zerowalker ?

[zerowalker]

I prefer free solutions
But checkmate seems to solve it, jagabo helped me out;D

[sanlyn]

. . . and i bought a new s-video "monster cable thx certified"

A lot like throwing good money after bad. "THX Certified" is meaningless, it has nothing to do with broadcast ,tape, a/v wire, audio, or DVD/HD standards. Maybe you can get a refund.

Sorry to see you're still having these problems. I just spent half an hour reading tis nthread, and all I could think of was the way my old JVC's just decided one day that they were old and tired and wouldn't generate a clean image any more. Stuff wears out.

[themaster1]

@Sanlyn
Send a lossless capture of your vcr menu out of curiosity

[sanlyn]

@Sanlyn
Send a lossless capture of your vcr menu out of curiosity

One couldn't conclude much about the OP's problem, since I use different gear. My own JVC '7600 died 5 years ago (and it looked far worse than the OP's JVC's do). The 7600 looked pretty awful when it died. Also used a new '9900 that was defective, returned the next day; it had image problems all over the place. I couldn't copy a menu sequence now; my capture setup stays in storage until I get ready for a new VHS capture session - which takes all day to complete and repack.

But it just so happens that after a 2-hour search on an old external drive I found an early menu capture (2007) that I never deleted. Looking at it and comparing it to a more recent cap from a couple of weeks ago, I saw something I never noticed before. I recaptured this video recently because VHS copy protection left artifacts and bad colors on the old project, which I've re-started from scratch. Most revealing ! This might mean that my AVT-8710 could very well follow the path of my old '7600 .

The VHS captures were made with the same setup: The VCR was a Panasonic PV-8662, composite out to a Toshiba RD-XS34 DVD recordert as line-level pass-thru, svideo out (no Monster Cable products allowed in these premises!) to an AVT-8710, svideo to ATI AIW 7500, then to VurtualDub and huffyuv YUY2 AVI. The big exception: the recent capture (image #3) did not use the AVT-8710.

Pictures 1 and 2 ("PLAY" and "TBC")
VCR > composite > RD-XS34 > svideo > AVT-8710 > svideo > AIW 7500 > VirtualDub > AVI
Blow up the image any way you want: you'll see a fine-textured diamond crosshatch pattern in both images. The usual denosiing kills it, but I'm guessing that it does cause some comparative image softening.





Picture 3 ("NO TBC")
VCR > composite > RD-XS34 > svideo > AIW 7500 > VirtualDub > AVI
diamond-studded pattern not present.



Fortunately using the RD-XS34 for pass-thru seems to eliminate copy protection problems on my tapes, without the help of a full-frame tbc. This is a 12-year-old tape. From the unprocessed original captures.

[jagabo]

Can you provide a short sample of the blue screen cap?

[themaster1]

Hmm yeah, nothing to brag about imo. I prefer a sharper noise personnally for better removal later. As far as chroma noise both caps have some and haven't used any dnr so...
Also, the size font on your menu has been well chosen it seems, a multiple of 8 perhaps ? but that wasnt enough to fool me

[sanlyn]

Can you provide a short sample of the blue screen cap?

Lagarith YUY2, 81 frames, 2.7-sec., 17.8 MB -
http://dc343.4shared.com/download/e-KAtW-0/LIL5C_Menu_L_YUY2.avi

I never captured menu screens from the session without the AVT-8710. But here are two images from the same video.
Top image = AVT-8710 in capture setup. Bottom = same setup without AVT-8710. The bottom image had a slightly lower brightness setting in VirtualDub capture to rescue highlights in a later shot from this sequence.

[sanlyn]

Hmm yeah, nothing to brag about imo. I prefer a sharper noise personnally for better removal later. As far as chroma noise both caps have some and haven't used any dnr so...
Also, the size font on your menu has been well chosen it seems, a multiple of 8 perhaps ? but that wasnt enough to fool me

See the AVi posted for jagabo, above. The frame I posted was the first frame in the capture that had onscreen characters. The font was reduced by the VCR a few frames later. The AVI shows the full sequence in YUY2, unprocessed.

[jagabo]

Can you provide a short sample of the blue screen cap?

Lagarith YUY2, 81 frames, 2.7-sec., 17.8 MB -
http://dc343.4shared.com/download/e-KAtW-0/LIL5C_Menu_L_YUY2.avi

Thanks for the cap. Weird that the AVT-8710 is adding dot crawl artifacts to s-video signals.

[sanlyn]

Don't know if I've burned mine out after all this time, or what. Maybe I can borrow a friend's tbc and check it out, or try another video later.

[sanlyn]

If anyone still cares (likely not), I made a full-screen menu capture to compare earlier images, and to show a cleaner image that does not use the AVT-8710 with s-video in the capture circuit.

Panasonic PV-8661 composite video out (Acoustic Research Performance Series composite cable) ->
Toshiba RD-XS34 recorder as line-tbc pass-thru, s-video out (y/c 3D filter turned on) ->
ATI AIW 7500 Radeon, s-video input ->
VirtualDub capture to YUY2 huffyuv
AVI Converted to RGB32 in Avisynth and copied in VirtualDub
PNG made with Photoshop

[zerowalker]

So it´s upscaling to S-video with the TBC?
Looks Good, though Text don´t tell me much, but don´t se the X of red and green like many others including myself have

[sanlyn]

Well, no, not "upscaling". The VCR's output is 640x480 composite. I just let my DVD recorder convert composite >to> s-video. I've never found an s-vhs player that I thought could play plain VHS that well -- not one that I could afford, anyway !

[zerowalker]

How do you do that?
I got and VHS, and would like to convert to S-video, as i get it´s better than composite in the end?
May be totally wrong though.

[sanlyn]

The s-video converters in most DVD recorders are very good at converting composite input to s-video, and even to component output. These are built-in electronic circuits, not passive adapters (the latter just don't work well at all, period). Some DVD brands are better than others. I think Toshiba, Panasonic, SONY, and Pioneer do the best job. But most users see no difference between these brands.

It's "better" in that the output is usually free of most of the noise problems you get when recording composite directly to digital video. Remember that the Toshiba I'm using also has a y/c comb filter on its composite and RF inputs. This eliminates most of the dot crawl you see with composite input. Also, I'm not recording on the Toshiba; I'm just using it as a pass-thru device to take advantage of its built-in line-level TBC, which helps fix many (but not all) problems with VHS tape playback. I recorded the menu screen directly to huffyuv YUY2 AVI with my capture card. 99% of the captures I make with VHS are to lossless compression AVI for further cleanup. VHS is just to noisy for recording directly to lossy MPEG.

[zerowalker]

Oh, only have two Combo VHS/DVD i think one of them has S-video output, but don´t know if it can even convert the signa;S
But it seems like you got a pretty neat setup with all that combined

Would myself really like to have a S-VHS with S-video and TBC inbuilt, without any weird artifacts, but as they are hell expensive i will probably have to go other ways, atleast in my current situation.
And yours seems pretty neat if i can atleast get it to S-video for testing atleast.

[sanlyn]

The old s-VHS/VHS machines with built-in TBC are all pretty much burned-up by now, except for those rebuilt machines that cost more than anyone can afford. If you're referring to the old high-end consumer JVC's, you should know that they reject many tapes that aren't in good condition. The built-in TBC's of DVD recorders were better anyway, considering that they were newer.

Don't know what brand of combo DVD/VHS you have, but if it has a DVD recorder section it might have a built-in TBC's. The current run of Toshiba and Maganavox units don't play or record as well as older recorders, but they can be used as pass-thru TBC's and for s-video output. My machines are 8 years old. All were purchased at close-out or refurbished prices. Two of them have been repaired by the makers.

[zerowalker]

Ah, i see, well i got a pretty good vhs currently the sad thing is the S-video part.

But how can i see if it got S-video converter?
How do i connect etc?

Thanks!

[sanlyn]

Plug your VCR's composite cable into a DVD recorder that has a composite input and s-video output. If your DVD is just player-only, then likely it has no input function, only output.

[zerowalker]

well none of them has that, one hade composite input in front for the VCR i think, but it only had scart ouput (probably not S-video) for DVD.
Other has s-video but no input, only input through Scart for the VCR, decoder and such.

And yeah S-video is pretty rare in Europe, makes it much harder;S

As i have an S-VHS but it doesn´t ouput S-Video even though all should (or so i read?).
As we only have Scart here, and s-video through scart works from Scart to Scart, but it´s composite or something as my card gives Black and White;S

[sanlyn]

I think you might want to check Google and read up on some of these connection and cable types. S-VHS is a tape format, a type of video data storage on tape. The "S" in "S-VHS" stands for "Super VHS" -- it does not mean "s-video", which is a type of transmision and its associated cables and i/o circuits. You can play an S-VHS tape with whatever outputs are provided by your playback hardware. In your area, SCART is more common than the others. It's my understanding that SCART is superior to plain composite, but at least SCART is no worse. The connections you use to capture your video depend on the connections of your capture device, which might or might not include s-video.