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    What's the difference between US ATSC digital tuners and European DVB-T tuners ? Seems like the DVD recorder market in the US is completely dead, while elsewhere outside the US, there's an abundance of new DVD recorders with DVB-T tuners.......
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    Read the "Transmission" section at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_terrestrial_television The two systems are not compatible.
    If you want a DVD recorder to use in the USA, buy one of the Magnavox products with an HDD.
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    I'm aware the two systems aren't compatible..... just wondering why Panasonic has so many DVB-T models with hdd, and make none here with ATSC. I have six DVD recorders with ATSC tuners, and two DTVPAL DVR's with ATSC, so I don't need to buy a Magnavox, or any other product designed by Funai, which have lousy tuners and crappy pictures, thanks for the the reference
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    I thought that residents of the USA were in love with the TIVO and didn't archive shows too often (except for the hacked tivo's)... Panasonic make great DVD Recorders IMO but like ATSC Tuners in DVD recorders for the states they do not import or sell DVB-S DVD Recorders in Australia..... I imported mine from Germany.... I guess like the DVD Recorders in the USA it is a supply and demand issue ........ How much are TIVO's compared to available DVD Recorders VS how much you would be willing to pay for better units?? Here in Australia Panasonic make a Blueray DVD Recorder with 2 HD tuners and I think 1TB HDD..... Possibly LG etc do the same.... TIVO has only been available for about 2 yrs now I think...
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  5. Member DB83's Avatar
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    IIRC, certainly as far as the UK is concerned, there is a gradual turn-off of terrestial analogue signals so that eventually the whole country will be served with digital only.

    As a pre-empt to this, and to avoid the need for additional set-top equipment, manufacturers decided to build digital tuners into practically all new dvd recorders and television sets so that when the switch off came the screen would not go dark.
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    Originally Posted by joecass View Post
    I'm aware the two systems aren't compatible..... just wondering why Panasonic has so many DVB-T models with hdd, and make none here with ATSC. I have six DVD recorders with ATSC tuners, and two DTVPAL DVR's with ATSC, so I don't need to buy a Magnavox, or any other product designed by Funai, which have lousy tuners and crappy pictures, thanks for the the reference
    I will be getting a Magnavox HDD recorder to replace my ancient Panasonic recorder. Your objections are pointless, particularly when they are the only new DVD recorders with an ATSC tuner left here. ...and the latest Magnavox is a better product than the final Panasonic recorders for N. America.

    Panasonic never made a model with an HDD and an ATSC tuner for N. America, and what they did make is now largely unavailable, even online. It has been 2 or 3 years since any new Panasonic recorders came out here. They have left the N. American market to Magnavox.

    The latest Magnavox model appears to be pretty good. The Magnavox HDD recorders are reported to work more reliably than the Panasonic models with ATSC/QAM tuners, and all the DVD recorders Panasonics ever made for N. America with ATSC tuners also have some tuner issues and some picture quality issues too, like excessive posterization, which is more evident on an LCD TV.

    The lack of third-party recording devices has been discussed many times, and recently too. I guess you don't come here often and have yet to discover that Google is your friend.

    Here's a recap.

    1. Unlike the rest of the world over 80% of US residents mostly use a paid TV service for watching TV. If over 80% of us watched over-the-air free services like the rest of the world, we'd have many DVD recorders or BD recorders to choose from.

    2. The vast majority of US residents have no interest in saving TV shows on a disc.

    3. If one has digital cable or satellite service, using a DVD recorder with a STB is inconvenient. If you want to watch one thing and record another, you are out of luck. If you want to record consecutive shows on different channels, you had better be there to change the channel yourself. Most of the time the STB won't change channels by itself and the DVD recorder either won't have an IR Blaster or won't have the codes to control your box.

    4. DVD recorders don't offer a program guide for cable/satellite or one-touch recording.

    5. It is tough to keep independent guide data accurate, and even more so when there is no uniformity in channel assignments for all the cable providers, or even one cable provider in all its service areas. The same provider will often use different channel assignments for their customers in neighboring communities.

    6. You pay up front for your DVD recorder and if it dies, replacement is your problem. TV providers lease their recorders and will replace their equipment if it breaks, plus they give you a free guide. Equivalent third-party recording devices (Moxi) with a free program guide cost $700.

    The FCC has mandated that the cable industry must come up with a new lower-cost interface for third party devices by the end of 2012 to replace the CableCARD and tuning adapter technology, and tru2way. (Panasonic abandoned development of tru2way products in the summer of 2010.) However, between copy-once protection on almost all paid programming and the public's lack of interest in keeping copies on optical media, I do not expect BD drives on any third-party recording devices that use the new interface, nor any component analog inputs or outputs.
    Last edited by usually_quiet; 7th Feb 2011 at 19:23. Reason: spelling, other correction
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    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    Originally Posted by joecass View Post
    I'm aware the two systems aren't compatible..... just wondering why Panasonic has so many DVB-T models with hdd, and make none here with ATSC. I have six DVD recorders with ATSC tuners, and two DTVPAL DVR's with ATSC, so I don't need to buy a Magnavox, or any other product designed by Funai, which have lousy tuners and crappy pictures, thanks for the the reference
    I will be getting a Magnavox HDD recorder to replace my ancient Panasonic recorder. Your objections are pointless, particularly when they are the only new DVD recorders with an ATSC tuner left here. ...and the latest Magnavox is a better product than the final Panasonic recorders for N. America.

    Panasonic never made a model with an HDD and an ATSC tuner for N. America, and what they did make is now largely unavailable, even online. It has been 2 or 3 years since any new Panasonic recorders came out here. They have left the N. American market to Magnavox.

    The latest Magnavox model appears to be pretty good. The Magnavox HDD recorders are reported to work more reliably than the Panasonic models with ATSC/QAM tuners, and all the DVD recorders Panasonics ever made for N. America with ATSC tuners also have some tuner issues and some picture quality issues too, like excessive posterization, which is more evident on an LCD TV.

    The lack of third-party recording devices has been discussed many times, and recently too. I guess you don't come here often and have yet to discover that Google is your friend.

    Here's a recap.

    1. Unlike the rest of the world over 80% of US residents mostly use a paid TV service for watching TV. If over 80% of us watched over-the-air free services like the rest of the world, we'd have many DVD recorders or BD recorders to choose from.

    2. The vast majority of US residents have no interest in saving TV shows on a disc.

    3. If one has digital cable or satellite service, using a DVD recorder with a STB is inconvenient. If you want to watch one thing and record another, you are out of luck. If you want to record consecutive shows on different channels, you had better be there to change the channel yourself. Most of the time the STB won't change channels by itself and the DVD recorder either won't have an IR Blaster or won't have the codes to control your box.

    4. DVD recorders don't offer a program guide for cable/satellite or one-touch recording.

    5. It is tough to keep independent guide data accurate, and even more so when there is no uniformity in channel assignments for all the cable providers, or even one cable provider in all its service areas. The same provider will often use different channel assignments for their customers in neighboring communities.

    6. You pay up front for your DVD recorder and if it dies, replacement is your problem. TV providers lease their recorders and will replace their equipment if it breaks, plus they give you a free guide. Equivalent third-party recording devices (Moxi) with a free program guide cost $700.

    The FCC has mandated that the cable industry must come up with a new lower-cost interface for third party devices by the end of 2012 to replace the CableCARD and tuning adapter technology, and tru2way. (Panasonic abandoned development of tru2way products in the summer of 2010.) However, between copy-once protection on almost all paid programming and the public's lack of interest in keeping copies on optical media, I do not expect BD drives on any third-party recording devices that use the new interface, nor any component analog inputs or outputs.
    As with everything, it's a matter of personal preference and opinion. My objections may be 'pointless' to you, but not to me...... as I use discs frequently to archive tv material. To say that I don't come here often or don't use Google is ridiculous.
    It's a shame so many people on this forum have the "I"m an expert - you're an idiot" attitude rather than intelligently discuss what the OP has on his/her mind. I may not post often, but I've read the thousands of discussions
    regarding the perennial "VHS to DVD conversion", and all the posts regarding DVD recorders, and other 3rd party devices, with all the presumptuous opinions voiced by self-proclaimed experts like yourself.

    I have 3 USA machines designed by Funai: a Philips 3505, a Toshiba 660 and a Philips 3575H. I assure you, if
    you came to my home right now, and compared the PQ of my two Panasonic recorders, EZ48VK and EZ27K,
    to the Funai machines, on my brand new Sony LED set, you wouldn't be making such a blanket statement about Panasonics.

    Many years ago an friend sent me discs made on a Panasonic DMR-EH80 machine, the PQ from that analogue recorder
    still looks better than anything made by Funai...... good luck on replacing your aging Panasonic with that Magnavox.....
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    Originally Posted by joecass View Post
    As with everything, it's a matter of personal preference and opinion. My objections may be 'pointless' to you, but not to me...... as I use discs frequently to archive tv material. To say that I don't come here often or don't use Google is ridiculous.
    It's a shame so many people on this forum have the "I"m an expert - you're an idiot" attitude rather than intelligently discuss what the OP has on his/her mind. I may not post often, but I've read the thousands of discussions
    regarding the perennial "VHS to DVD conversion", and all the posts regarding DVD recorders, and other 3rd party devices, with all the presumptuous opinions voiced by self-proclaimed experts like yourself.

    I have 3 USA machines designed by Funai: a Philips 3505, a Toshiba 660 and a Philips 3575H. I assure you, if
    you came to my home right now, and compared the PQ of my two Panasonic recorders, EZ48VK and EZ27K,
    to the Funai machines, on my brand new Sony LED set, you wouldn't be making such a blanket statement about Panasonics.

    Many years ago an friend sent me discs made on a Panasonic DMR-EH80 machine, the PQ from that analogue recorder

    still looks better than anything made by Funai...... good luck on replacing your aging Panasonic with that Magnavox.....
    It looks to me like being a fanboy of a paricular brand of electronics makes people into idiots. If you followed all the recent discussions, then why are you asking questions to which you already know the answer?

    The giants in the consumer electronics industry are not backwards about making money. Technology isn't much of an issue at this point.The only reason we don't have the machines you want from Panasonic here is there is an insignificant demand in for them at the price they have to sell for. The only possible way that we would now have the machines you want from Panasonic would be if we had adopted the same TV system as Japan or DVB-T and development costs were reduced to next to nothing. If we ever get a big-name brand ATSC recorder to compete with Magnavox, it will come from S. Korea (an ATSC country) and be made by Samsung or LG.

    However, I know I wouldn't pay $400 or $500 for a Panasonic HDD DVD recorder when they were available in the US. Would you pay more than that today for a single tuner machine or pay $1200 to $2000 for a HDD BD recorder, which is what the tunerless ones sold here for videography cost?

    I will stand by my assessment of Panasonic's picture quality. Mine, from 2005, posterizes significantly, although I did not notice it as much on an analog CRT TV. People who should know have reported Panasonics still posterize excessively. The Maganavox recorders have problems too, but different ones. I hardly ever record in anything but SP mode, so the issues related to half-D1 recording modes won't be a problem for me.
    Last edited by usually_quiet; 8th Feb 2011 at 00:23. Reason: spelling
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  9. Member netmask56's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Ozzyjim View Post
    I thought that residents of the USA were in love with the TIVO and didn't archive shows too often (except for the hacked tivo's)... Panasonic make great DVD Recorders IMO but like ATSC Tuners in DVD recorders for the states they do not import or sell DVB-S DVD Recorders in Australia..... I imported mine from Germany.... I guess like the DVD Recorders in the USA it is a supply and demand issue ........ How much are TIVO's compared to available DVD Recorders VS how much you would be willing to pay for better units?? Here in Australia Panasonic make a Blueray DVD Recorder with 2 HD tuners and I think 1TB HDD..... Possibly LG etc do the same.... TIVO has only been available for about 2 yrs now I think...
    and don't forget that here in Australia 90% + watch free to air. But in lieau of DVD recorders we do hard hard disk PVR's like Topfield capable of recording 4 channels (on 2 muxes) simultaneously and Beyonwiz now available with 2TB internal disc and you can copy the MPEG2 files to your PC or over a home network etc, except of course the so called Freeview models that are deliberately crippled to prevent copying and supposedly offer a "better" EPG and you can only fast forward on these models and plans are afoot to allow the stations to play simple commercials as you fast forward! How the hell you find where you want go is a mystery? The Non Freeview models in comparison receive all the same channels and offer a decent enough EPG that the stations transmit anyway and you can program the unit to jump commercials... enjoy it while we can
    SONY 75" Full array 200Hz LED TV, Yamaha A1070 amp, Zidoo UHD3000, BeyonWiz PVR V2 (Enigma2 clone), Chromecast, Windows 11 Professional, QNAP NAS TS851
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  10. Was going to ask an extremely similar question...and thats why I signed up here hahha... thanks for all the responses.
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    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    6. You pay up front for your DVD recorder and if it dies, replacement is your problem. TV providers lease their recorders and will replace their equipment if it breaks, plus they give you a free guide.
    This may still apply for providers like TWC. For DirecTV, you need to have a replacement service policy -- a few bucks extra per month, akin to that "insurance" option for a new cell phone. THEN, if it dies (after any applicable warranty), the replacement hardware is on them rather than on you. (I don't know if DirecTV is the exception, or not alone in having it this way.)
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  12. Our asinine lobbyist-dictated insistence on developing the pathetic renegade ATSC system for USA imposed costs that most mfrs did not want to risk adding to already slow-selling expensive DVD/HDD recorders. The sell-through rate for DVB-T recorders was and remains something like 5x the USA/Canada ATSC market, with most of them being DVD/HDD models priced at the equivalent of $500 US minimum. Why the hell would any mfr waste time with a one-off American version with impossible ATSC tuning at even higher retail prices? The cratered economy double locked that door after they all dropped us in 2007, they're never coming back. Not with DVD/HDD, not with BD/HDD, and certainly not once our wonderful gov't imposed analog connection cutoff happens late next year: there won't be any way to record anything anyway. These details can all be found in back issues of broadcast and consumer electronics trade magazines, or the archives of their websites. ATSC killed development of higher-end recorders for North America, it was the straw that broke their backs when added to USA price resistance and inability to seamlessly integrate with our greedy cable/satellite monopolies.

    Originally Posted by joecass View Post
    I have 3 USA machines designed by Funai: a Philips 3505, a Toshiba 660 and a Philips 3575H. I assure you, if you came to my home right now, and compared the PQ of my two Panasonic recorders, EZ48VK and EZ27K, to the Funai machines, on my brand new Sony LED set, you wouldn't be making such a blanket statement about Panasonics.
    Many years ago an friend sent me discs made on a Panasonic DMR-EH80 machine, the PQ from that analogue recorder still looks better than anything made by Funai...... good luck on replacing your aging Panasonic with that Magnavox.....

    As you said yourself, picture quality and other elements are largely a matter of personal preference. For every person who believes no other recorder will do besides Panasonic, there are two who think Panasonic makes posterized false-looking crap DVDs with major sound issues. Neither opinion is truly "correct": too much depends on source material, display, ancillary gear, and your own eyes. As far as the models you own, the Funai Toshibas are and always have been problematic, ditto the Phillips 3505. They were built to a price or per contract specs. The Phillips 3575 was one of the very first recorders with ATSC tuner released in the USA, the only one with HDD, so it had many teething problems and never really got the bugs worked out of its tuner. Nonetheless credit Funai for at least trying to make an affordable DVD/HDD model with ATSC for the USA after our precious Panasonic (and Pioneer, Sony, Toshiba) literally told us to go F ourselves since we weren't willing to pay $499-599 for such a unit (but were lining up like demented idiots for $349 dysfunctional overpriced DVD/VHS combos).

    The later Magnavox models that replaced the twitchy Philips 3575 are much better units with more stable consistent tuners. The operating interface sucks eggs, but the recordings at XP and SP are at least equal to a Panasonic EH55 or Pioneer 560 when viewed on my Panasonic, Sony and Sansung large-screen LCDs. At $199 for the current model 513 Magnavox at Wal*Mart, its the most unbeatable value in DVD recorder history. Its burner blows away any Panasonic, Pioneer, Sony or Toshiba XS burner in terms of durability and media pickiness, requires no maintainence, and can be replaced for $67 if it ever breaks. Mag uses standard SATA hard drives that can be replaced in minutes. Its power supply is free of the issues that dogged every Panasonic. And its tuner and timer do not duel to the death in hatred of each other as in the current ATSC Panasonics (count yourself insanely fortunate to be the only person on any forum anywhere not reporting timer issues with an EZ48). Does the Magnavox totally suit everyone who's used to their Panasonic or Pioneer? Not by a longshot, not in bloody hell: as a Pioneer user I loathe the Magnavox interface. But it beats connecting external ATSC boxes to my old recorders, at SP the recordings are indistinguishable, and the entire new Magnavox with its tuner costs $150 less than repairs to a Panasonic. Pioneer, Sony or Toshiba DVD/HDD model (ever price replacement burners? you could put a downpayment on a Lexus cheaper for less cash).

    Whether we like it or not, the Magnavox is the only game in town if we want an ATSC/DVD/HDD recorder. It works reasonably well, and is dirt cheap to buy and maintain. It exists only because Wal*Mart enjoys having an exclusive "halo" product. Pissing all over it because it isn't a Panasonic EH55, Pioneer 560 or Sony RDR-HX525 doesn't accomplish anything other than influence some people to buy a non-HDD recorder of another brand which they will likely hate using even more. If the Magnavox sold for $499 a case could be made for throwing bricks at it, but at $199-$249 it way outperforms its non-HDD competitors and offers excellent price-performance value. Things could be lot worse, and will be when the Magnavox is finally discontinued in a year or two (nasty analog sunset laws). Those who just cannot abide the Magnavox, or need better LP recording options, are stuck with the non-HDD Panasonic EZ28 at the same price (heaven help anyone who goes for the demonic EZ48v). Or shopping the used or import markets for the final Panasonic or Pioneer HDD models (triple the price of the Magnavox and no onboard tuner, but similar to the older units we love).
    Last edited by orsetto; 8th Feb 2011 at 18:20.
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    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    Originally Posted by joecass View Post
    As with everything, it's a matter of personal preference and opinion. My objections may be 'pointless' to you, but not to me...... as I use discs frequently to archive tv material. To say that I don't come here often or don't use Google is ridiculous.
    It's a shame so many people on this forum have the "I"m an expert - you're an idiot" attitude rather than intelligently discuss what the OP has on his/her mind. I may not post often, but I've read the thousands of discussions
    regarding the perennial "VHS to DVD conversion", and all the posts regarding DVD recorders, and other 3rd party devices, with all the presumptuous opinions voiced by self-proclaimed experts like yourself.

    I have 3 USA machines designed by Funai: a Philips 3505, a Toshiba 660 and a Philips 3575H. I assure you, if
    you came to my home right now, and compared the PQ of my two Panasonic recorders, EZ48VK and EZ27K,
    to the Funai machines, on my brand new Sony LED set, you wouldn't be making such a blanket statement about Panasonics.

    Many years ago an friend sent me discs made on a Panasonic DMR-EH80 machine, the PQ from that analogue recorder

    still looks better than anything made by Funai...... good luck on replacing your aging Panasonic with that Magnavox.....
    It looks to me like being a fanboy of a paricular brand of electronics makes people into idiots. If you followed all the recent discussions, then why are you asking questions to which you already know the answer?

    The giants in the consumer electronics industry are not backwards about making money. Technology isn't much of an issue at this point.The only reason we don't have the machines you want from Panasonic here is there is an insignificant demand in for them at the price they have to sell for. The only possible way that we would now have the machines you want from Panasonic would be if we had adopted the same TV system as Japan or DVB-T and development costs were reduced to next to nothing. If we ever get a big-name brand ATSC recorder to compete with Magnavox, it will come from S. Korea (an ATSC country) and be made by Samsung or LG.

    However, I know I wouldn't pay $400 or $500 for a Panasonic HDD DVD recorder when they were available in the US. Would you pay more than that today for a single tuner machine or pay $1200 to $2000 for a HDD BD recorder, which is what the tunerless ones sold here for videography cost?

    I will stand by my assessment of Panasonic's picture quality. Mine, from 2005, posterizes significantly, although I did not notice it as much on an analog CRT TV. People who should know have reported Panasonics still posterize excessively. The Maganavox recorders have problems too, but different ones. I hardly ever record in anything but SP mode, so the issues related to half-D1 recording modes won't be a problem for me.
    Not denying your assessment of Panasonic PQ, I'm an old fashioned person that goes by my...... eyes and ears. This reminds me of the debate in the 1980's and 1990's of analog versus digital audio.....
    I'm not a 'fanboy' of anything, I just want the features and picture quality in any electronics device I buy..... to me, my Sony
    analog hdd/dvd recorder has the best pq of all, but I remember someone here flaming me for mentioning that, too.

    If Panasonics are such low end machines, then explain to me why they are still going for top dollar on EBay ?
    And explain to me why, when my friend's EH80 machine broke after 6 years, he bought one of those European hdd/dvd
    models with a PAL tuner that are outfitted to work in the USA ?

    I would gladly pay ANY price for a Sony or Panasonic hdd/dvd machine outfitted with an ATSC tuner, since I don't believe in
    paying TIVO or the cable company $15 a month for the privelege of dvr'ing my TV content, and not being able to archive
    anything to disc..... and I would also pay..... whatever..... for a Blu-Ray/HDD recorder capable of archiving HD material.

    The fact that I've read mostly everything here regarding these subjects, doesn't mean there's someone else
    out there that has more knowledge than I do or you do regarding the original question.......
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    Mr. Orsetto, thank you for your intelligent and well informed opinions. One of the few people here who discuss things without the need to 'flame' others. If the Magnavox is that much of an improvement over the previous Funai offerings, then it may be worth adding to my arsenal of machines ( that I intend on keeping forever).

    Yes I am the only person in the universe that doesn't have timer or other issues with my EZ48VK, mainly because I'm used
    to the quirks, only record with new +RW or -R discs, and use my QAM cable signal for recording. DTV ATSC is too unstable IMHO. For me the LP and FR modes are unbeatable for normal everyday use, I don't care about the pixellation and posterization issues, I just know my recordings look better on the EZ48VK than on the Funai machines.
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    Originally Posted by joecass View Post
    ...
    DTV ATSC is too unstable IMHO.
    ...
    This is a location or antenna issue.
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    Actually I think I posted on here about a Dreambox dunno what model maybe 8000??? Like the Dreambox's made for Sat reception etc it can be used as a PVR, Think was twin tuner (had to buy theese) and CAN get ATSC tuners.... Runs Linux and CAN BE FITTED WITH A DVD Burner... A more expensive option maybe but COULD work...


    EDIT:
    Just did a google and appears the ATSC Tuners etc no longer available.... I will look into this again but got to run now.....
    Last edited by Ozzyjim; 8th Feb 2011 at 23:13.
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    Originally Posted by joecass View Post
    Not denying your assessment of Panasonic PQ, I'm an old fashioned person that goes by my...... eyes and ears. This reminds me of the debate in the 1980's and 1990's of analog versus digital audio.....
    I'm not a 'fanboy' of anything, I just want the features and picture quality in any electronics device I buy..... to me, my Sony
    analog hdd/dvd recorder has the best pq of all, but I remember someone here flaming me for mentioning that, too.

    If Panasonics are such low end machines, then explain to me why they are still going for top dollar on EBay ?
    And explain to me why, when my friend's EH80 machine broke after 6 years, he bought one of those European hdd/dvd
    models with a PAL tuner that are outfitted to work in the USA ?

    I would gladly pay ANY price for a Sony or Panasonic hdd/dvd machine outfitted with an ATSC tuner, since I don't believe in
    paying TIVO or the cable company $15 a month for the privelege of dvr'ing my TV content, and not being able to archive
    anything to disc..... and I would also pay..... whatever..... for a Blu-Ray/HDD recorder capable of archiving HD material.

    The fact that I've read mostly everything here regarding these subjects, doesn't mean there's someone else
    out there that has more knowledge than I do or you do regarding the original question.......
    People buy those used/gray market Panasonics at outrageous prices because of brand loyalty, based on familiarity with the product, past positive experiences with the brand, and fear of trying anything else. ...or they just hate the alternatives for one reason or another. Historically Panasonic is not a high-end brand. They were more of a middle-of-the-road brand. In the golden age of US DVD recorders, there were other brands that had a better reputation for picture quality, or more features, like Toshiba or Pioneer. They still have followers constantly perusing eBay for used models too. Sony, not so much. There aren't many members in the Sony DVD recorder fanclub.

    Pay any price to avoid a TiVo or DVR eh? That seems penny wise and pound foolish to me. $2000 would buy an HD TiVo recorder and about ten years of service at the current rate. As for recording to disc, unless you want to archive mainly sports, news, and local programming, almost everything else made for TV today winds up on DVD or Blu-Ray. $2000 would buy quite a few seasons worth of TV series in boxed sets, possibly in better than broadcast quality.

    If money were no object I wouldn't consider buying DVD recorder again. I am that happy with using a Media Center PC for recording off antenna. Over-the air stations are the only offerings worth recording that by law cannot be copy-protected in a way that prevents recording from a hard drive to optical media. I could build a new PC with ATSC/QAM tuners, or a Hauppauge Colossus HD-PVR, or a Ceton CableCARD tuner and a BD burner in a nice consumer-electronics friendly chassis for far less than $2000.

    As was already explained to you, the technology to build a high-quality, reliable ATSC recorder exists. There are even such things as NTSC/ATSC/QAM/DVT-B tuners, although firmware for each system/country/region would still need to be different. The problem is insignificant demand for the product. The small percentage of people in N. America who would buy a top of the line BD recorder at any price do not constitute a viable market.
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  18. Originally Posted by joecass View Post
    If the Magnavox is that much of an improvement over the previous Funai offerings, then it may be worth adding to my arsenal of machines ( that I intend on keeping forever).[...] For me the LP and FR modes are unbeatable for normal everyday use, I don't care about the pixellation and posterization issues, I just know my recordings look better on the EZ48VK than on the Funai machines.
    My post was not so much to persuade you yourself to try another Funai, but to give additional context so others who stumble across this thread will at least consider a Magnavox and not dismiss it without trying it first (Wal*Mart has a very liberal return/refund policy). In your very specific case, given your usage patterns and preferred recording speeds, you may or may not find the Magnavox 513 or 515 to be a noticeable improvement over your existing Phillips 3575. The primary improvements to the Magnavox over the Phillips involve the solidity of the tuner, enhancement to the video encoder, some tweaks to the remote control system, slight tweaks to the HDMI and TiVO-like six-hour background recording feature. If used at the XP or SP speeds, the Magnavox image quality equals my Pioneer 560 and a Panasonic EZ28 I borrowed: it uses a surprisingly expensive and high-grade custom encoder chip made just for this recorder series.

    Where the Magnavox falls down is with those who are very used to the specific appearance of Panasonic LP (4 hrs per DVD) recordings: Panasonic chose to use the higher resolution D1 spec at LP, which results in arguably sharper video at the expense of accurate smooth motion and some color posterizing. (Pioneer's later models also use D1 for LP but are not quite the same as Panasonic due to other little tweaks Panasonic added to LP: Panasonic has a unique LP "look" that people either love or hate.) The Magnavox, like the majority of other recorders aside from Panasonic/Pioneer, drops its resolution at recording speeds longer than SP in order to maintain a higher bitrate for smoother motion. This has proven a good compromise in other machines but is not entirely successful in the Magnavox: at the SPP (150 minute), 3-hr and 4-hr speeds it loses some of the fine crispness and "punch" it enjoys at the XP and SP speeds. For all practical purposes, the Magnavox is optimized for those who archive their DVDs at the XP or SP speeds (it can fit 130 mins per DVD at SP). This is not as big a deal as it seems, because you can record up to 120 hours of SP material to its hard drive: if you have a 4 or 5 hour game, you can split it across two SP DVDs burned at high speed from the HDD, and can also delete commercials before burning the DVDs. Of course, if you're the type who must have four hours continuous on one dvd, this will not satisfy you.

    Each person has their own preferred way of recording and archiving. The majority of my own recordings are archived at SP on Magnavox or Pioneer machines, with a few longer titles I use my Pioneer FR/MN speeds to fit the occasional 140- or 150-min movie on one disc. I find the HDD feature of the Magnavox FAR more useful day-to-day than the better LP speed on a Panasonic EZ28 with no HDD. I *hate* using RW media with a passion, and much prefer to timeshift on an HDD which leaves the option open to burn a cheap archival DVD-R if I want to keep a recording. Someone else who records mostly sports at LP will prefer a Panasonic. There are also a number of users who patch a Magnavox into the line inputs of older Panasonic, Pioneer, Sony and Toshiba recorders to feed them an ATSC signal (at $199, the Magnavox 513 is inexpensive enough to be considered a "deluxe external ATSC tuner/timer"). There's no right or wrong way to go, just different sets of compromises.

    One last point worth mentioning is the continual reduction in our cable service options. Most tuner complaints lodged against the Magnavox, Panasonic EZ series, and other ATSC/QAM recorders involve those with "boxless" cable service. No-box, direct off the wire cable service is being rapidly phased out due to loopholes in the ATSC/QAM transition regulations: about half the country no longer has any "boxless" tier available to them. Those that do still have "boxless" increasingly discover it is not compatible with one or another brand of DVD recorder: the cable company screws with specs and frequencies at will, so you never know whether a Panasonic, Sony, Magnavox or LG will be better or worse for you. This is not the fault of the individual recorder, they are all designed for standard QAM frequencies but are easily thrown off by cableco shenanigans. The best thing to do if you notice problems is order a standard decoder box and just deal with plugging its line outs into your recorder: once your cable franchise starts messing with boxless service, kiss it goodbye instead of driving yourself nuts every day trying to make your recorder to work with it. They will defeat you every few weeks.
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    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    Originally Posted by joecass View Post
    Not denying your assessment of Panasonic PQ, I'm an old fashioned person that goes by my...... eyes and ears. This reminds me of the debate in the 1980's and 1990's of analog versus digital audio.....
    I'm not a 'fanboy' of anything, I just want the features and picture quality in any electronics device I buy..... to me, my Sony
    analog hdd/dvd recorder has the best pq of all, but I remember someone here flaming me for mentioning that, too.

    If Panasonics are such low end machines, then explain to me why they are still going for top dollar on EBay ?
    And explain to me why, when my friend's EH80 machine broke after 6 years, he bought one of those European hdd/dvd
    models with a PAL tuner that are outfitted to work in the USA ?

    I would gladly pay ANY price for a Sony or Panasonic hdd/dvd machine outfitted with an ATSC tuner, since I don't believe in
    paying TIVO or the cable company $15 a month for the privelege of dvr'ing my TV content, and not being able to archive
    anything to disc..... and I would also pay..... whatever..... for a Blu-Ray/HDD recorder capable of archiving HD material.

    The fact that I've read mostly everything here regarding these subjects, doesn't mean there's someone else

    out there that has more knowledge than I do or you do regarding the original question.......
    People buy those used/gray market Panasonics at outrageous prices because of brand loyalty, based on familiarity with the product, past positive experiences with the brand, and fear of trying anything else. ...or they just hate the alternatives for one reason or another. Historically Panasonic is not a high-end brand. They were more of a middle-of-the-road brand. In the golden age of US DVD recorders, there were other brands that had a better reputation for picture quality, or more features, like Toshiba or Pioneer. They still have followers constantly perusing eBay for used models too. Sony, not so much. There aren't many members in the Sony DVD recorder fanclub.

    Pay any price to avoid a TiVo or DVR eh? That seems penny wise and pound foolish to me. $2000 would buy an HD TiVo recorder and about ten years of service at the current rate. As for recording to disc, unless you want to archive mainly sports, news, and local programming, almost everything else made for TV today winds up on DVD or Blu-Ray. $2000 would buy quite a few seasons worth of TV series in boxed sets, possibly in better than broadcast quality.

    If money were no object I wouldn't consider buying DVD recorder again. I am that happy with using a Media Center PC for recording off antenna. Over-the air stations are the only offerings worth recording that by law cannot be copy-protected in a way that prevents recording from a hard drive to optical media. I could build a new PC with ATSC/QAM tuners, or a Hauppauge Colossus HD-PVR, or a Ceton CableCARD tuner and a BD burner in a nice consumer-electronics friendly chassis for far less than $2000.

    As was already explained to you, the technology to build a high-quality, reliable ATSC recorder exists. There are even such things as NTSC/ATSC/QAM/DVT-B tuners, although firmware for each system/country/region would still need to be different. The problem is insignificant demand for the product. The small percentage of people in N. America who would buy a top of the line BD recorder at any price do not constitute a viable market.
    I'm not going to agree or disagree with your statements..... historically, going back to the late 70's early 80's, when VHS was the only
    option, Panasonics were considered top notch machines; now, as with everything else made overseas, it's pretty much disposable quality.
    I've been researching TIVO and cable co DVR's for years, I see no benefit in having one except to DVR cable channels not available OTA.
    There are many PBS and other cable channel shows with retro or classic/rock musicians and bands that I like to record and put to disc.
    Not possible with just TIVO or cableco DVR.
    Picture quality and control over what I'm able to record or archive to disc is most important to me, not the cost of the hardware.

    Recently, my grandson wanted a certain show on the Cartoon Network; his parents only have a cable co DVR, they have no means of making discs like I do. It was a simple matter to record 4hrs of his favorite show on my Sony, edit out the commercials, and give him
    2 DVD-R's that he can view in his room, which only has a TV and DVD player ( a 4yr old, btw )

    Another example, for 10 years, I've been a caretaker for my elderly 86 yr old mother, who happens to have Dementia, incapable of operating a simple cable box and TV; her favorite show was the Sopranos, which have been running on A&E for years now.
    The original HBO box set of the series was over $300 to buy; I simply recorded all the episodes onto disc, and made it possible for her
    to view 2hrs, 4hrs or 6hrs of shows when convenient.

    I also thought of building a HTPC, but after using these DTVPAL DVR machines, the convenience outweighs the complicatons of using
    computers to record OTA or QAM programming. I briefly experimented with Windows Media Center and an external tuner, wasn't
    happy with the results.

    Your last paragraph completely covers the point of my OP...... the technology is here, market demand is not.....
    Thanks for your insightful input.
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    Originally Posted by orsetto View Post
    Originally Posted by joecass View Post
    If the Magnavox is that much of an improvement over the previous Funai offerings, then it may be worth adding to my arsenal of machines ( that I intend on keeping forever).[...] For me the LP and FR modes are unbeatable for normal everyday use, I don't care about the pixellation and posterization issues, I just know my recordings look better on the EZ48VK than on the Funai machines.
    My post was not so much to persuade you yourself to try another Funai, but to give additional context so others who stumble across this thread will at least consider a Magnavox and not dismiss it without trying it first (Wal*Mart has a very liberal return/refund policy). In your very specific case, given your usage patterns and preferred recording speeds, you may or may not find the Magnavox 513 or 515 to be a noticeable improvement over your existing Phillips 3575. The primary improvements to the Magnavox over the Phillips involve the solidity of the tuner, enhancement to the video encoder, some tweaks to the remote control system, slight tweaks to the HDMI and TiVO-like six-hour background recording feature. If used at the XP or SP speeds, the Magnavox image quality equals my Pioneer 560 and a Panasonic EZ28 I borrowed: it uses a surprisingly expensive and high-grade custom encoder chip made just for this recorder series.

    Where the Magnavox falls down is with those who are very used to the specific appearance of Panasonic LP (4 hrs per DVD) recordings: Panasonic chose to use the higher resolution D1 spec at LP, which results in arguably sharper video at the expense of accurate smooth motion and some color posterizing. (Pioneer's later models also use D1 for LP but are not quite the same as Panasonic due to other little tweaks Panasonic added to LP: Panasonic has a unique LP "look" that people either love or hate.) The Magnavox, like the majority of other recorders aside from Panasonic/Pioneer, drops its resolution at recording speeds longer than SP in order to maintain a higher bitrate for smoother motion. This has proven a good compromise in other machines but is not entirely successful in the Magnavox: at the SPP (150 minute), 3-hr and 4-hr speeds it loses some of the fine crispness and "punch" it enjoys at the XP and SP speeds. For all practical purposes, the Magnavox is optimized for those who archive their DVDs at the XP or SP speeds (it can fit 130 mins per DVD at SP). This is not as big a deal as it seems, because you can record up to 120 hours of SP material to its hard drive: if you have a 4 or 5 hour game, you can split it across two SP DVDs burned at high speed from the HDD, and can also delete commercials before burning the DVDs. Of course, if you're the type who must have four hours continuous on one dvd, this will not satisfy you.

    Each person has their own preferred way of recording and archiving. The majority of my own recordings are archived at SP on Magnavox or Pioneer machines, with a few longer titles I use my Pioneer FR/MN speeds to fit the occasional 140- or 150-min movie on one disc. I find the HDD feature of the Magnavox FAR more useful day-to-day than the better LP speed on a Panasonic EZ28 with no HDD. I *hate* using RW media with a passion, and much prefer to timeshift on an HDD which leaves the option open to burn a cheap archival DVD-R if I want to keep a recording. Someone else who records mostly sports at LP will prefer a Panasonic. There are also a number of users who patch a Magnavox into the line inputs of older Panasonic, Pioneer, Sony and Toshiba recorders to feed them an ATSC signal (at $199, the Magnavox 513 is inexpensive enough to be considered a "deluxe external ATSC tuner/timer"). There's no right or wrong way to go, just different sets of compromises.

    One last point worth mentioning is the continual reduction in our cable service options. Most tuner complaints lodged against the Magnavox, Panasonic EZ series, and other ATSC/QAM recorders involve those with "boxless" cable service. No-box, direct off the wire cable service is being rapidly phased out due to loopholes in the ATSC/QAM transition regulations: about half the country no longer has any "boxless" tier available to them. Those that do still have "boxless" increasingly discover it is not compatible with one or another brand of DVD recorder: the cable company screws with specs and frequencies at will, so you never know whether a Panasonic, Sony, Magnavox or LG will be better or worse for you. This is not the fault of the individual recorder, they are all designed for standard QAM frequencies but are easily thrown off by cableco shenanigans. The best thing to do if you notice problems is order a standard decoder box and just deal with plugging its line outs into your recorder: once your cable franchise starts messing with boxless service, kiss it goodbye instead of driving yourself nuts every day trying to make your recorder to work with it. They will defeat you every few weeks.
    While your intent may not have been to get me to try the Magnavox, at least it does suggest other options. I went to the Walmart site,
    and read all the reviews about the latest 500gb hdd machine, which seems to have some quality control issues. Half of people that
    bought them, had to return them..... something I'm not particularly interested in. I see however, there's an AVS forum dedicated to the
    Magnavoxes, I will check this out in the near future.

    My main objection to the Funai machines is a soft, dark picture quality no matter what speed I use..... I very rarely use LP on the
    Panasonics, sometimes just a 3hr FR mode, football games look horrible using LP, gave up on that....
    For my own purposes, I've recorded the same material in SP mode on all my machines to compare PQ..... which include a Toshiba XS32
    an RCA 8030, and an LG 897T..... the Funai machines are always at the bottom of the food chain.

    Luckily, my cable provider is Time Warner in NYC, which still sends analog, digital and QAM over the "boxless" line.... if eventually
    TWC follows the lead of other cableco's, I will be royally screwed ! Where I am, the OTA signal is pretty unreliable at best, due to location.
    The cable signal itself is also weak, and as you said they keep changing the QAM stations.....
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    Originally Posted by joecass View Post
    While your intent may not have been to get me to try the Magnavox, at least it does suggest other options. I went to the Walmart site,
    and read all the reviews about the latest 500gb hdd machine, which seems to have some quality control issues. Half of people that
    bought them, had to return them..... something I'm not particularly interested in. I see however, there's an AVS forum dedicated to the
    Magnavoxes, I will check this out in the near future.
    Well, I read every one of the reviews at Walmart for Magnavox MDR515H/F7 and came away with a very different impression. Some did mention a problem that caused a return. The most frequent actual defect was a stuck DVD drive tray. However, out of 113 ratings, 87 were 4 or 5 stars, and the product was rated 4 stars overall. 76% very positive ratings is quite impressive. When I see that, it is generally the sign of a good product. At least a third of the reviews I see for most other kinds of electronics are one star reviews made to report an infant death or DOA.

    I'm glad my Panasonic lasted long enough for decent, very affordable replacement with an HDD to arrive. However that is only true because when the power supply failed 3 months after the warranty expired, I had it repaired at my own expense for $80. Plus I'm opening it up to clean the spindle 4-5 times a year, because otherwise it would have stopped working long ago. The dust I find does not look like normal house dust. It looks like it comes from wear on the spindle itself. Most people would not know to do this or would not be bothered. Unfortunately, from what other Panasonic owners say, every one of Panasonic's DVD recorders has this annoying little quirk.

    When I read Panasonic user reviews recently, there were a fair number of complaints written about all the current EZ series models with tuners, especially the VHS combo units, saying they could not be relied upon to record using their timer settings. That is a deal-breaker for me.
    Last edited by usually_quiet; 10th Feb 2011 at 00:11.
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  22. Originally Posted by joecass View Post
    I went to the Walmart site, and read all the reviews about the latest 500gb hdd machine, which seems to have some quality control issues. Half of people that bought them, had to return them..... something I'm not particularly interested in.
    For some inexplicable reason, Funai made a change to the initial out-of-the-box setup procedure for the Magnavox 515 which differs from the earlier otherwise-identical Mags as well as every other recorder I've ever heard of. Like most Asian electronics mfrs, they made the mistake of assuming the average American consumer is as diligent about reading instruction manuals as Asian engineers are, but of course most of us actually rip the box open and try to play with the unit right away (and damn the instruction manual). The 515 has an idiotic "initial setup interlock" that prohibits opening the DVD tray of a brand new 515 until you first set the clock time. Once you do that, the disc tray is released and works normally. Of course, no way in hell would the average consumer ever figure that out on their own or by reading the impenetrable manual, so truckloads of Magnavox 515s have been returned as "defective" when actually they're fine. Eventually this bonehead setup glitch will result in a fresh supply of like-new refurbished 515s being sold thru J&R Electronics website for about $179 with free shipping, bargain hunters should bookmark the site and check it weekly. J&R has an exclusive refurb resale deal with Funai that is mega-popular with the folks at AVS, in fact I bought two of last years H2160 model @ $159 from J&R myself.

    My main objection to the Funai machines is a soft, dark picture quality no matter what speed I use.....
    Then the Magnavox may not do it for you. There are still scattered complaints about "crushed blacks" when recording a QAM signal (another reason to forget the fantasy of a boxless cable connection direct to the recorder tuner). The Magnavox does better with off-air ATSC or line input connections from a decoder box, these present less of the "dark picture" risk and most people find ithe results satisfactory. One also needs to try different HDMI cables with certain TVs, and adjust the black level on some TVs that are preset way too dark (i.e. my Panasonic LCDs are locked into an overly-dark black level with some inputs that needs to be worked around with many recorders). I too am in NYC on TWC, they are a joke with each neighborhood receiving variable service and the quality of each channel being Russian Roulette month to month. For this reason I caved and use their decoder box, I find it easier than dealing with their QAM bs and my recorders do better with cable out of a box than out of the wall. In your case, in your house, with your specific cable connection, your Panasonics pull a better signal off the bare wire than your other recorders. That is certainly a valid opinion and you should use what you think works best. Others living a half mile from you may find the Panasonic sucks, and need something else, maybe even an LG.

    I see however, there's an AVS forum dedicated to the Magnavoxes, I will check this out in the near future.
    Yes, it can be found here. That astonishingly comprehensive and helpful sticky thread is solely maintained by wajo, who used to be a member here and kept up a VH mirror of that thread until he got disgusted with some of the less-polite fanboys here who dogged his every post. He decided it was easier to keep the thread on one forum, and chose AVS. Which is kind of bizarre, because AVS is world HQ of Panasonic DVD/HDD recorder fanboys, while VH members seem to prefer the ancient original Toshiba XS and JVC machines (I'm a Pioneer man myself). Go figure.
    Last edited by orsetto; 10th Feb 2011 at 00:43.
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  23. Member Seeker47's Avatar
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    Hi Orsetto,

    A few points re your recent posts in this thread:

    Originally Posted by orsetto
    . . . and certainly not once our wonderful gov't imposed analog connection cutoff happens late next year:
    there won't be any way to record anything anyway.
    . . .
    Things could be lot worse, and will be when the Magnavox is finally discontinued in a year or two (nasty analog sunset laws).
    Does this have dire implications for our existing hardware -- current DVDRs, decoder boxes, even Tivo -- despite our leaving everything in place with no changes ? Or am I taking what you said in an overly broad way ? (Of course, I've been aware of the providers' threat to disable all non-HDMI outputs for some time now, but did not think it too likely this would be carried out anytime soon.)

    Originally Posted by orsetto
    The majority of my own recordings are archived at SP on Magnavox or Pioneer machines.
    Does this refer to the Pioneer SP-equivalent of MN-21 ? (Which would also be SP on the Magnavox ?) MN-21 is pretty much my default "floor" on the Pioneer, with most archival-bound recordings done in the range of MN 21 - 26. Things that really call for the max. quality will get it; very rarely do I drop below 21 (Pioneer SP). Most of the time I'd rather go DL on the 640 or go to split SL discs for longer items. (No DL possible on the Mag, so there I'd go with the latter.) Wherever possible, I try to favor HD channel sources for something I wish to record, because the signal quality will go farther towards maxing out SD content on the recorder, vs. the often crappy signal we get in an SD channel broadcast, with all the compression and artifacts.

    Every time I think I've seen most of the Pio model variants (in a picture, at least), along comes another one:

    http://cgi.ebay.com/PIONEER-Model-DVR-2000-DVD-RECORDER-PLAYER-W-REMOTE-/160522464970?...item255fe26eca

    But I'm sure this won't be news to you.

    Lastly, I recall your saying something about leftover stock of some Pioneer models (probably the int'l. ones) still turning up occasionally at J&R, and maybe one other place besides eBay. But I haven't seen any in quite awhile, so I guess that supply is finally kaput. In fact, there is very rarely anything Pio in good condition anymore on eBay, except for a couple models from the "Skip It" List. (In the event of the worst possible answer to my first question above, this may be irrelevant, anyway. If that is the case, I won't regret not picking up a spare 560, or an extra Mag. How many boat anchors or spare doorstops do we need ?)
    When in Las Vegas, don't miss the Pinball Hall of Fame Museum http://www.pinballmuseum.org/ -- with over 150 tables from 6+ decades of this quintessentially American art form.
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  24. Originally Posted by Seeker47 View Post
    Hi Orsetto,

    A few points re your recent posts in this thread:

    Originally Posted by orsetto
    . . . and certainly not once our wonderful gov't imposed analog connection cutoff happens late next year: there won't be any way to record anything anyway.
    Does this have dire implications for our existing hardware -- current DVDRs, decoder boxes, even Tivo -- despite our leaving everything in place with no changes ?
    Completely accurate info is hard to come by, but the gist is beginning late next year mfrs will begin dropping all analog connections on new audio and video gear, leaving just HDMI for video and perhaps HDMI/TosLink for audio. Once the actual legislation goes into effect in 2013, we can expect cable companies to remotely kill any analog connections on our cable boxes. This will pretty much obsolete all our DVD/HDD recorders except for making recordings from off-air ATSC via antenna or a previously-purchased ATSC converter. There is a feeding frenzy on other forums of people desperately trying to import various HDMI>analog component adapters before they are modified to the new draconian HDCP compliance for 2013. If you have a good HDMI>component adapter ($200+) and a good component>composite adapter to go with it (another $200), you should be able to connect an existing recorder to the HDMI of a cable box to continue making SD recordings. I myself am debating whether I should jump on these pricey adapters before import restrictions kill them altogether (they were banned beginning December 15, 2010). I'm sure eBay will be flooded with them after 2013, but who knows what cost and from what sellers. While I don't really think all cablecos will kill their analog outputs on all programming in 2013, some might, and eventually the problem will only escalate.

    All this due to Hollywood lobbyists clamoring to service all the lazy-ass morons and misguided gearheads who can't be bothered to go to a movie theater or rent a DVD: in order to provide them with so-called "day and date" new releases over PPV cable, the rest of us have to sacrifice our day-to-day recording rights without so much as a public hearing. Once again, your government at work, tirelessly supporting nonsense while real problems go unaddressed.

    Originally Posted by orsetto
    The majority of my own recordings are archived at SP on Magnavox or Pioneer machines.
    Does this refer to the Pioneer SP-equivalent of MN-21 ? (Which would also be SP on the Magnavox ?) MN-21 is pretty much my default "floor" on the Pioneer, with most archival-bound recordings done in the range of MN 21 - 26.
    Yes, although I normally just choose the canned SP speed over MN21. My second most-used Pioneer speed is MN20 which nets about 134 mins per DVD, great for archiving 3 hour-long dramas minus commercials. The Magnavox has very efficient encoding at the SP speed which actually gets very close to the Pioneer MN20 disc capacity (nice).

    Every time I think I've seen most of the Pio model variants (in a picture, at least), along comes another one:

    http://cgi.ebay.com/PIONEER-Model-DVR-2000-DVD-RECORDER-PLAYER-W-REMOTE-/160522464970?...item255fe26eca

    But I'm sure this won't be news to you.
    Wow- I haven't seen a DVR-2000 in ages! Nice photos, thanks for the link. This was a hella expensive specialty unit made primarily for post-production studios. If memory serves, it used special blanks recording in a special format that created what are called "DVD Mastering Discs": no clue how those specifically differ from ordinary DVD-Rs, but apparently there was some demand for them some years ago.

    Lastly, I recall your saying something about leftover stock of some Pioneer models (probably the int'l. ones) still turning up occasionally at J&R, and maybe one other place besides eBay. But I haven't seen any in quite awhile, so I guess that supply is finally kaput.
    The last remaining supply of Pioneer "import" models dried up last year and it is now very difficult to find any Pioneer in good shape at reasonable cost, used or new. Besides J&R, the other big seller of legit import Pioneers was B&H Photo Video, also here in NYC. Both of them still very occasionally have a DVR-560 or 660 pop up, mostly open box display or refurb units, at around the $350-400 mark. And I still see several Hong Kong based dealers selling new Pioneers with huge aftermarket HDDs anywhere from $799-1500 (way too much: I'd rather stock up on ten Magnavoxes). The similar Panasonic import models EH59 and EH69 have also been getting scarce recently, although I think thats only because replacement models are in the works. Pioneer actually stopped making the things almost 3 years ago, so the supply is finite, but Panasonic has had two import model redesigns since Pioneer folded and has steady demand for these multi-national units worldwide. I expect we'll see an EH70 from Panasonic by spring.
    Last edited by orsetto; 10th Feb 2011 at 13:32.
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  25. Member Seeker47's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by orsetto View Post
    There is a feeding frenzy on other forums of people desperately trying to import various HDMI>analog component adapters before they are modified to the new draconian HDCP compliance for 2013. If you have a good HDMI>component adapter ($200+) and a good component>composite adapter to go with it (another $200), you should be able to connect an existing recorder to the HDMI of a cable box to continue making SD recordings. I myself am debating whether I should jump on these pricey adapters before import restrictions kill them altogether (they were banned beginning December 15, 2010). I'm sure eBay will be flooded with them after 2013, but who knows what cost and from what sellers. While I don't really think all cablecos will kill their analog outputs on all programming in 2013, some might, and eventually the problem will only escalate.
    Presumably you are referring to the HD Fury III, or something similar that I haven't seen linked online ? From what I've read, I was under the impression that these were perilous investments -- the reason being that the (legit) decryption keys for these gizmos were "borrowed", and could be invalidated by the powers-that-be at any time. Otherwise, I would also be interested, as a precautionary measure. (By now, I'm way too invested in the option to archive to throw in the towel, or to let even a cost like that stand in the way.)

    Originally Posted by orsetto View Post
    The last remaining supply of Pioneer "import" models dried up last year and it is now very difficult to find any Pioneer in good shape at reasonable cost, used or new. Besides J&R, the other big seller of legit import Pioneers was B&H Photo Video, also here in NYC. Both of them still very occasionally have a DVR-560 or 660 pop up, mostly open box display or refurb units, at around the $350-400 mark. And I still see several Hong Kong based dealers selling new Pioneers with huge aftermarket HDDs anywhere from $799-1500
    Yes -- used to see those at some regularity on eBay, either from those sellers or ones based in NYC. But not for quite some time. The modded or multi-system system ones don't really turn up anymore -- regardless of price. No more open boxes or refurbs from Canada, either. (I had my eBay filter set to N. Amer., so I can't speak to what commerce in these might be happening abroad -- which is likely not even of academic interest here, due to incompatibility.)
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    Originally Posted by orsetto View Post
    ...and certainly not once our wonderful gov't imposed analog connection cutoff happens late next year: there won't be any way to record anything anyway.
    Originally Posted by orsetto View Post
    Completely accurate info is hard to come by, but the gist is beginning late next year mfrs will begin dropping all analog connections on new audio and video gear, leaving just HDMI for video and perhaps HDMI/TosLink for audio. Once the actual legislation goes into effect in 2013, we can expect cable companies to remotely kill any analog connections on our cable boxes. This will pretty much obsolete all our DVD/HDD recorders except for making recordings from off-air ATSC via antenna or a previously-purchased ATSC converter. There is a feeding frenzy on other forums of people desperately trying to import various HDMI>analog component adapters before they are modified to the new draconian HDCP compliance for 2013. If you have a good HDMI>component adapter ($200+) and a good component>composite adapter to go with it (another $200), you should be able to connect an existing recorder to the HDMI of a cable box to continue making SD recordings. I myself am debating whether I should jump on these pricey adapters before import restrictions kill them altogether (they were banned beginning December 15, 2010). I'm sure eBay will be flooded with them after 2013, but who knows what cost and from what sellers. While I don't really think all cablecos will kill their analog outputs on all programming in 2013, some might, and eventually the problem will only escalate.

    All this due to Hollywood lobbyists clamoring to service all the lazy-ass morons and misguided gearheads who can't be bothered to go to a movie theater or rent a DVD: in order to provide them with so-called "day and date" new releases over PPV cable, the rest of us have to sacrifice our day-to-day recording rights without so much as a public hearing. Once again, your government at work, tirelessly supporting nonsense while real problems go unaddressed.
    Exactly what Federal regulations are forcing an analog cutoff?

    I know that AACS licensing agreements within the consumer electronic industry require HD analog outputs on Blu-Ray players to be phased out by 2013, but that's not a law.

    I also know that the FCC requirement to provide some basic analog content on cable ends in 2012 unless it is renewed, but that is not a requirement to end analog cable.

    I can certainly see some manufacturers deciding on their own that HDMI, digital audio and coax are the only connections that they need to supply on some items, but as far as I know the law only specifies the kind of TV tuner that must be provided, and requires that firewire be provided on HD STBs, though it also allows firewire output to be disbled for some content.

    I realize the cable industry has been granted permission to disable analog video output for PPV movies not yet released on disc, but they are not required by law to do it, and are not allowed to do it for other kinds of programming.

    Production of HDCP strippers, like the HDFury, was discontinued because a new rule was added to the HDCP licence banning devices that "allow the output of deciphered HDCP content in any analog representation", not because of a law.

    In other words it is private industry's fault, not the government's fault.

    "AllVid" is the FCC's answer to provide a new cheaper, more versitile interface so third party devices, including recorders, can operate effectively in a digital cable environment. "Copy freely" content could certainly be exported from a third-party recorder with an AllVid interface. As far as I can tell it will be up to the maker to decide to include that feature, but how many people will be willing to pay for it?

    [Edit] Oh I did forget one analog cutoff that the government actually is mandating. Low-power over-the-air TV analog broadcasts. I sympathize with the owners of those stations. However I only have one LP station I can watch (when the weather cooperates), and that is only because they erected a digital transmitter a few miles away. Their analog signals were always too weak and distant to receive. The rest of the LP stations in the area are still too weak.
    Last edited by usually_quiet; 11th Feb 2011 at 00:07. Reason: spelling
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    Originally Posted by orsetto View Post
    Originally Posted by joecass View Post
    I went to the Walmart site, and read all the reviews about the latest 500gb hdd machine, which seems to have some quality control issues. Half of people that bought them, had to return them..... something I'm not particularly interested in.
    For some inexplicable reason, Funai made a change to the initial out-of-the-box setup procedure for the Magnavox 515 which differs from the earlier otherwise-identical Mags as well as every other recorder I've ever heard of. Like most Asian electronics mfrs, they made the mistake of assuming the average American consumer is as diligent about reading instruction manuals as Asian engineers are, but of course most of us actually rip the box open and try to play with the unit right away (and damn the instruction manual). The 515 has an idiotic "initial setup interlock" that prohibits opening the DVD tray of a brand new 515 until you first set the clock time. Once you do that, the disc tray is released and works normally. Of course, no way in hell would the average consumer ever figure that out on their own or by reading the impenetrable manual, so truckloads of Magnavox 515s have been returned as "defective" when actually they're fine. Eventually this bonehead setup glitch will result in a fresh supply of like-new refurbished 515s being sold thru J&R Electronics website for about $179 with free shipping, bargain hunters should bookmark the site and check it weekly. J&R has an exclusive refurb resale deal with Funai that is mega-popular with the folks at AVS, in fact I bought two of last years H2160 model @ $159 from J&R myself.

    My main objection to the Funai machines is a soft, dark picture quality no matter what speed I use.....
    Then the Magnavox may not do it for you. There are still scattered complaints about "crushed blacks" when recording a QAM signal (another reason to forget the fantasy of a boxless cable connection direct to the recorder tuner). The Magnavox does better with off-air ATSC or line input connections from a decoder box, these present less of the "dark picture" risk and most people find ithe results satisfactory. One also needs to try different HDMI cables with certain TVs, and adjust the black level on some TVs that are preset way too dark (i.e. my Panasonic LCDs are locked into an overly-dark black level with some inputs that needs to be worked around with many recorders). I too am in NYC on TWC, they are a joke with each neighborhood receiving variable service and the quality of each channel being Russian Roulette month to month. For this reason I caved and use their decoder box, I find it easier than dealing with their QAM bs and my recorders do better with cable out of a box than out of the wall. In your case, in your house, with your specific cable connection, your Panasonics pull a better signal off the bare wire than your other recorders. That is certainly a valid opinion and you should use what you think works best. Others living a half mile from you may find the Panasonic sucks, and need something else, maybe even an LG.

    I see however, there's an AVS forum dedicated to the Magnavoxes, I will check this out in the near future.
    Yes, it can be found here. That astonishingly comprehensive and helpful sticky thread is solely maintained by wajo, who used to be a member here and kept up a VH mirror of that thread until he got disgusted with some of the less-polite fanboys here who dogged his every post. He decided it was easier to keep the thread on one forum, and chose AVS. Which is kind of bizarre, because AVS is world HQ of Panasonic DVD/HDD recorder fanboys, while VH members seem to prefer the ancient original Toshiba XS and JVC machines (I'm a Pioneer man myself). Go figure.
    Actually, for the asking price, it seems like a bargain (with 500gb hdd), especially if the internal parts are easily replaceable.
    I read some of Wajo's thread on AVS, very interesting..... aslo checked out J & R, at the moment there are no refurbs, for
    $179 I would consider it. On the Walmart site, some people reported multiple returns and DOA's, which doesn't sound
    too good. The thing is, if I buy one and get that dark, soft PQ, I'll regret the purchase..... at the moment, all my
    machines work perfectly. The older 3575 seems to have a nicer cosmetic look than the Magavoxes, which are pretty spartan. I never regretted buying the Philips, it always did what it was supposed to.....

    Last year I decided to get into HDTV recording, I was tired of std def pics from the cable box and upconvert machines.
    The two DTVPal DVR's I bought look incredible, but alas they are not meant to last, a year or two at most. I also have
    this ancient LG LST3410a hdd HDTV recorder, which provides a wonderful pic, but the loss of analog TV Guide screws it up
    tremendously....... have to unplug and reset it every other day. (another whole AVS forum dedicated to the LG)

    Then I tried using an external USB ATSC tuner with my computer..... the software was horrible, the pic itself was great,
    but the tuner was lacking..... it wouldn't hold a steady pic that all the dvd recorders had no problem with.
    Transcoding or downconverting to DVD from HDTV bit rates took forever....... it wasn't worth it
    I also tried recording from the cable box to a laptop using firewire, only the basic channels were available, the QAM
    HD channels would break up consistently to the point of being unwatchable.

    For me, the Panasonics were a godsend..... I have two 'recording' rooms, each with amps and multiple splits in the QAM
    signal. The same signal line that the 48VK pulled in all the channels, the Philips 3505 and Toshiba 660 couldn't hold the pic
    long enough to get a good recording. Ditto for the 27K in the other room. A few months ago, TWCable downshifted the
    some of the QAM stations..... notably Fox5, Wor9 and Pix11...... suddenly the signal weakened, and completely messed up
    my recording schedule. I managed to overcome some of it by adding another cable amplifier, but it was still annoying.
    The only channel always totally reliable for some reason on both ATSC and QAM is CBS HD. It has been on 105.1 QAM since
    I bought my first plasma tv 6 years ago.....

    BTW, I've read many of your posts regarding the Pioneer machines, found them very interesting...... unfortunately used
    Pioneers command top dollar on EBay, and seem overly complicated when it comes to fixing them...... but I always wondered what the PQ is compared to my machines
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    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    Originally Posted by joecass View Post
    While your intent may not have been to get me to try the Magnavox, at least it does suggest other options. I went to the Walmart site,
    and read all the reviews about the latest 500gb hdd machine, which seems to have some quality control issues. Half of people that
    bought them, had to return them..... something I'm not particularly interested in. I see however, there's an AVS forum dedicated to the
    Magnavoxes, I will check this out in the near future.
    Well, I read every one of the reviews at Walmart for Magnavox MDR515H/F7 and came away with a very different impression. Some did mention a problem that caused a return. The most frequent actual defect was a stuck DVD drive tray. However, out of 113 ratings, 87 were 4 or 5 stars, and the product was rated 4 stars overall. 76% very positive ratings is quite impressive. When I see that, it is generally the sign of a good product. At least a third of the reviews I see for most other kinds of electronics are one star reviews made to report an infant death or DOA.

    I'm glad my Panasonic lasted long enough for decent, very affordable replacement with an HDD to arrive. However that is only true because when the power supply failed 3 months after the warranty expired, I had it repaired at my own expense for $80. Plus I'm opening it up to clean the spindle 4-5 times a year, because otherwise it would have stopped working long ago. The dust I find does not look like normal house dust. It looks like it comes from wear on the spindle itself. Most people would not know to do this or would not be bothered. Unfortunately, from what other Panasonic owners say, every one of Panasonic's DVD recorders has this annoying little quirk.

    When I read Panasonic user reviews recently, there were a fair number of complaints written about all the current EZ series models with tuners, especially the VHS combo units, saying they could not be relied upon to record using their timer settings. That is a deal-breaker for me.
    You never mentioned which Panasonic model you own......
    While the Walmart site gave mostly positive reviews for the Magnavox, it seemed many were by newbies or people just
    looking to upgrade from VHS...... only a few intricate reviews from weathered DVD recorder users.
    Consumer reviews for the Panasonic EZ series were negative, and rightfully so..... for someone used to VHS or TIVO,
    it's really quite complicated..... and fairly unreliable. I overcame the timer issues by finding out older RW discs won't work,
    only newer RW's or DVD-R ( I use Sony & HP -R discs.) In addition, if there's any minor variance in the cable or OTA signal,
    that ruins your timer recording. Mine conked out after less than two years of use, although I must have made over
    200 discs using the EZ48VK. Fortunately I bought an extended warranty from the manufacturer, and had it fixed in two weeks time. I took it apart and tried the normal methods of recovery, such as cleaning the spindle, it didn't help.
    My friend who has the overseas model with 250gb hdd, loves it, and he's a heavy duty disc archiver.....

    Unfortunately for people here in the USA, I guess there's no choice but the Magnavox as a replacement machine..... I'm
    just pretty jealous that other countries have all this technology not available here..... that I would love to own
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    Originally Posted by joecass View Post
    You never mentioned which Panasonic model you own......
    I own a DMR-ES10 It's in my profile. LOL It's under computer details because when Baldrick upgraded the website, all our electroncs-related details were lumped together there.

    [Edit]Most user reviews are written by people without much expertise in the product category they are reviewing.

    If a DVD recorder can make a noob or non-expert happy, it's a good sign. Aside from the issues with the DVD drive tray, only a few were written by someone who couldn't figure out how to use the machine, and returned it for that reason. A couple more of the negative reviews were written by people with unreasonable expectations about their DVD recorder being able to offer the exact same tuning functionality as a cable DVR.
    Last edited by usually_quiet; 11th Feb 2011 at 00:10. Reason: fix typo, add more info
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    Originally Posted by orsetto View Post
    Wow- I haven't seen a DVR-2000 in ages! Nice photos, thanks for the link. This was a hella expensive specialty unit made primarily for post-production studios. If memory serves, it used special blanks recording in a special format that created what are called "DVD Mastering Discs": no clue how those specifically differ from ordinary DVD-Rs, but apparently there was some demand for them some years ago.
    Any idea what the burner was in these ? Some less familiar model, I'd reckon. Whoever might buy this, I don't like the odds for them being able to replace the burner or the HDD.
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