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  1. Hi all,

    I have several hours of TV Programming recorded as DV AVI files using my Canopus ADVC 110.

    Now I would like to fit 'as much as possible' on a single layer DVD-R with menus so it can be played on standalone DVD player.

    Which method is best to compress the videos so that the video quality is 'reasonable'? My objective is to fit 'as much as possible' onto the DVD while being DVD-compliant and of reasonable picture quality.

    a. VCD (since DVD authoring softwares accept VCD resolution as well)
    b. Half-D1 (read somewhere that Half-D1 makes i possible to fit more onto a DVD)
    c. Lower bitrates at full-D1 (toomuch lower bitrates cause macroblocks at full-D1???)

    I am in PAL land and I capture from Satellite Set-top box.

    Thanks.
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  2. If you really must fit as much as possible (4+ hours) go with quarter D1: 352x288 PAL. You'll be losing spacial and temporal resolution though.
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  3. You could just author a DVD and then use DVD shrink to get it to fit and see if the quality is good enough for you?
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  4. Member AlanHK's Avatar
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    DVD format is more flexible. VCD has a fixed, and fairly high, audio bitrate. With DVD you can shave the audio quality down, especially if it's just a TV show (unless it's Glee, say). 96 KB or even lower.
    And VCD uses constant bitrate video, so DVD MPEG2 should give a better quality at the same framesize and average bitrate, at least with a good encoder like HCEnc.

    The result also depends on your TV. A CRT is much more forgiving of low bitrate video than an LCD.
    I routinely put 4 or 4 1/2 hours at full D1 on a DVD to watch on my 29" CRT, and it looks better than analog broadcast quality here.
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  5. Member edDV's Avatar
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    I agree 352x288 MPeg2 with compressed mp2 audio (consider a mono mix) will get you the greatest DVD compression but the quality will sink as you compress more. Each user will have a threshold of tolerable quality vs minutes of storage. Keep in mind that re-compression kills quality, compression has a cost in CPU time and DVDR 5 media is cheap. If total minutes saved to a single disk is more important than media cost, one would use a double layer DVDR 9 disc.
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  6. The nature of the source makes a big difference too.
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  7. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by dvd3500 View Post
    You could just author a DVD and then use DVD shrink to get it to fit and see if the quality is good enough for you?
    Terrible advice.
    Encode properly the first time -- MPEG transcoding is highly destructive to homemade sources.
    Want my help? Ask here! (not via PM!)
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  8. Thank you all for the advice. So I have dieced to go for Half-D1 for DVD as opposed to VCD format. After searching through the forums further, I gained some more knowledge on Half-D1.

    What bit rate is good to encode at Half-D1 for my source (it is a capture from Satellite broadcast, they say MPEG-4 compressed signal, and I am using Canopus ADVC 110 to capture it in DV AVI format). The video is a TV series, with NO fast moving scenes. My final output is on single layer DVD.

    Also, in my Adobe Media Encoder I selected MPEG-2 DVD as the output format and the aspect ratio is locked at 720X576. Since that is not what I want, I selected output format as plain "MPEG-2" and then modified the frame size to 352 X 576. The output was an .MPG file, which my authoring application Sonic DVD It 5.0 is not accepting as DVD-Compliant. DVD It tried to transcode the .mpg file.

    Do you know if there are free encoders and authorig programs that can do quality work to achieve Half-D1 for DVD? (Just so that I can use them instead of Adobe Media Encoder and Sonic DVD It).

    Thanks.
    Last edited by nharikrishna; 27th Jan 2011 at 04:23.
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    Originally Posted by nharikrishna View Post
    I selected output format as plain "MPEG-2" and then modified the frame size to 355 X 576. The output was an .MPG file, which my authoring application Sonic DVD It 5.0 is not accepting as DVD-Compliant.
    Half D1 = 352x576
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  10. Half D1 = 352x576
    Sorry, yes, I meant 352X 576. It was a typo. Edited my message.
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  11. Member DB83's Avatar
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    Half D1 is dvd-compliant although most authoring programs will not recognise it.

    If you must use it then bitrate should not be lower, in my experience, than 2500 kbps.

    One program I use, but not free and no longer generally available, that will accept half D1 without re-encoding is Ulead's dvd workshop.

    But, as said, the gain in space - up to 4-6 hours per disk - is lost in ultimate quality. Better to use more disks and limit to full D1 at 4,000 kbps (2 hours)
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  12. But, as said, the gain in space - up to 4-6 hours per disk - is lost in ultimate quality. Better to use more disks and limit to full D1 at 4,000 kbps (2 hours)
    Thanks. But I read somewhere on this foum hat full D1 resolution is not required for many video sources such as VHS, and having full D1 for such sources will only waste the space. In my case it is a Satellite broadcase, and I need to know if half-D1 is "sufficient" to achieve the same (or similar) quality as full-D1.
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  13. Member AlanHK's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by nharikrishna View Post
    Thanks. But I read somewhere on this foum hat full D1 resolution is not required for many video sources such as VHS, and having full D1 for such sources will only waste the space. In my case it is a Satellite broadcase, and I need to know if half-D1 is "sufficient" to achieve the same (or similar) quality as full-D1.

    When I want to see what various options look like, I encode a few minutes with different specs and put them all on a DVDRW and see how they compare on the real screen I'll be watching the final result


    Originally Posted by nharikrishna View Post
    Do you know if there are free encoders and authorig programs that can do quality work to achieve Half-D1 for DVD?
    HCEnc will encode at whatever spec you ask; and GFD will take any legal (and a few marginal) files for authoring without trying to reencode them.
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  14. Great. Thanks. Let me try out HCEnc & GFD and see how it goes.

    Regards
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    Fulcilives used half D resolutions for his TV caps-DVD conversion
    see this old thread - could give you some pointers
    https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/170167-AviSynth-2-5x-and-Convolution3D-guide-for-AVI-captures
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  16. Originally Posted by nharikrishna View Post
    What bit rate is good to encode at Half-D1 for my source (it is a capture from Satellite broadcast, they say MPEG-4 compressed signal, and I am using Canopus ADVC 110 to capture it in DV AVI format). The video is a TV series, with NO fast moving scenes. My final output is on single layer DVD.
    Nobody can give you a definitive answer to that. Each video is different. And people have different tolerances. Do as AlanHK suggested -- run a few test encodes on representative material and see what you can live with. Start looking around 2500 kbps as DB83 suggested. MPEG 4 encoding has removed a lot of the detail and noise so you may get away with lower bitrates.

    Another thing to keep in mind: you won't always be using the same equipment to view these videos. It's better to err on the side of quality in case your next system shows the flaws more.

    You could encode in constant quality mode instead of bitrate mode. That way you always know what the quality of your result will be no matter what the source (but you won't know the file size until after encoding).

    Your satellite source is probably somewhere between full D1 and half D1 (though the ADVC 110 is capturing at full D1). Encoding at half D1 will give you a noticeably less sharp picture. VHS's resolution is about half D1 so it isn't hurt much by encoding at half D1.
    Last edited by jagabo; 27th Jan 2011 at 08:48.
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  17. Thanks jagabo. I am going to do a few tests at different resolutions and see how it goes.


    Regards
    Last edited by nharikrishna; 28th Jan 2011 at 03:54.
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  18. Member PuzZLeR's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by nharikrishna View Post
    Is it true that the only valid MPEG-2 resoltuions for DVD are: 352X576, 704X576, 720X576? Anything in between?
    As well as 352x288, which is accepted in MPEG-1 and MPEG-2 for DvD (for PAL).

    However, at least from my tests, I wouldn't use MPEG-2 for this latter resolution and, likely, associated small bitrate. MPEG-2 is better quality only at higher bitrates, which it was optimized for. Unless my testing was bad, believe it or not, MPEG-1 was much more efficient at low bitrates than MPEG-2.

    Personally, I'm done with any high compression for low bitrate video that costs considerable quality loss. But, from what I've seen in this forum, and even from transplants here in Toronto, high compression video is commonplace for your part of PAL-land if my hunch is correct so I understand.
    I hate VHS. I always did.
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  19. Member PuzZLeR's Avatar
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    Oops, didn't mean to quote you and answer your question before you did your edits. I can re-edit mine if you like.
    I hate VHS. I always did.
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  20. Thanks PuzZLeR. No need to edit your response. I clicked on 'What is DVD' on the left after I posted the question. That page has detailed info on various valid DVD resolutions, so I came back here and removed that question.
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  21. Member PuzZLeR's Avatar
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    A funny thing I just have to share with the Forum.

    I was trying to quote you by hitting "Quote", but that sentence was not showing in my post, yet visible (still) in your post. Several attempts later, still no success. Befuddled, I then gave up and manually copy/pasted it in.

    Now it makes sense - I actually caught your post in transition.

    Yes, those "What Is" guides, as well as other similar ones in this Forum, have been very helpful to me over the years.
    I hate VHS. I always did.
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  22. Just wanted to share an update: for a test, I encoded at Full D1 with 2300 as Average bitrate, 8000 as Max and 1500 as Min. The resulting DVD looks fantastic when played on a CRT-based TV. It is almost like a 9000 kbps DVD, the only thing is where there is fast motion, some blockiness can be seen, I am fine with that because my content has very rare fast moving scenes. The only thing I noticed is that the video has sall black border on all sides when played on CRT-TV. With this quality I will be able to fit about 250 minutes of video in one single layer DVD.

    When played on widescreen LCD TV, the lack of picture clarity is obvious. I am fine with this too, as the person who is going to watch this DVD (he is actually one of the actors who acted in this long TV series) has only a CRT-based TV.

    I am going to try Half-D1 today with FAVC, as I couldn't figure out how to do that in Adobe Media Encoder.

    Regards
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  23. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by nharikrishna View Post
    Just wanted to share an update: for a test, I encoded at Full D1 with 2300 as Average bitrate, 8000 as Max and 1500 as Min. The resulting DVD looks fantastic when played on a CRT-based TV. It is almost like a 9000 kbps DVD, the only thing is where there is fast motion, some blockiness can be seen, ...

    When played on widescreen LCD TV, the lack of picture clarity is obvious.
    That is because the average bit rate is too low. There is no way to increase bit rate for motion scenes when average bit rate is set so close to minimum.

    352x480i should do much better at that bit rate. You should lower your minimum setting to about 800 Kbps to allow head room for motion.

    Question.
    Why aren't you using dual layer DVD9?
    You could increase average bit rate and record more minutes.
    Last edited by edDV; 3rd Feb 2011 at 08:24.
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  24. 352x480i should do much better at that bit rate.
    Yes, I am going to try haf-D1 (352 x 756 in my case) as well. I couldn't do Half-D1 with Adobe Media Encoder, so I am going to try FAVC.

    You should lower your minimum setting to about 800 Kbps to allow head room for motion
    Adobe Media Encoder has the minimum of 1500??? There is a slider to select the bit rate, and 1500 is as low as it gets. this is what Adobe media Encoder help says: "The minimum bitrate differs according to the format. For MPEG‑2‑DVD, the minimum bitrate must be at least 1.5 Mbps. "

    Why aren't you using dual layer DVD9?
    Cost. I would use DVD9 if it is my own personal video, but for giving it to a relative for free, DVD5 is okay...
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  25. Originally Posted by nharikrishna View Post
    For MPEG‑2‑DVD, the minimum bitrate must be at least 1.5 Mbps. "
    Nonsense. The minimum is 0 (zero), although as a matter of course I set mine to 250. As edDV says, when using an average bitrate so low, the minimum should be way lower than that. If Adobe's encoder doesn't allow anything lower than 1500 (which I find hard to believe), use something else.
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  26. DECEASED
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    Please do yourself a favor, and stop using garbageware (Adobe Media Encoder).
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  27. I am using Adobe because I thought they produce professional-level softwares and I trusted Adobe Media Encoder to be among the best (since it is paid software). Also it uses Main Concept encoder.

    Anyways, would FAVC (with HC) be better than Adobe Media Encoder (besides allowing minimum bit rate lower than 1500)?
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  28. Member edDV's Avatar
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    What version Adobe Premiere media encoder are you using? Everything I have allows custom settings.

    Are you kidding me about the cost of a dual layer DVDR vs single layer? Like $1 vs. 20 cents.
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  29. I am using Premiere CS4.

    Here in India the difference between DVD5 & DVD9 is higher.
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  30. Member AlanHK's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by manono View Post
    Originally Posted by nharikrishna View Post
    For MPEG‑2‑DVD, the minimum bitrate must be at least 1.5 Mbps. "
    Nonsense. The minimum is 0 (zero), although as a matter of course I set mine to 250. As edDV says, when using an average bitrate so low, the minimum should be way lower than that. If Adobe's encoder doesn't allow anything lower than 1500 (which I find hard to believe), use something else.

    I use HCenc. If I watch it while it's encoding it shows the current bitrate. For featureless frames (eg, mostly black) the rate goes well below 1000, using the default settings where you choose the average and the maximum. I don't think there is even a "minimum" setting, I can't see why you would need to have that. There is a "zones" feature where you can manually boost or reduce the bitrate by a percentage in selected scenes.

    I've never tried to make an MPEG2 with a lower rate than MPEG1, but if anything could do it, HCEnc could.
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