Does 120hz mean a tv is 3d ready for a ps3 or just the nvidia cards?

[yoda313]

Ok I'm helping a family member scout hdtvs. Its just in the preliminary phase right now. No firm budget or size or brand is locked down yet and no purchase window either. Just data gathering - size, width, base rigidity etc (its primary destination is set for a corner thats exposed and is high traffic so wobbly bases are prone to tipping).

We're not sold on 3d but we are thinking about future proofing the set for 3d.

Does 120hz or higher mean its 3d ready out of the box for the ps3 or is it only 3d ready if you get the special nvidia cards for the computer?

If the set is 120hz can you hook up the ps3 and use any active shutter 3d glasses and do 3d that way or does it have to say "3d ready" in order for it to work with a ps3 or other 3d bluray player?

This is not a deal killer for any hdtv we might pick up. This is just a side consideration.

Thanks.

[Cornucopia]

No. Some 120Hz TVs just take standard incoming 60Hz signals and frame repeat/interpolate them to get to 120Hz.

To truly support the various inputs of 3D (and there are a number of them), a TV has to:

A. Have increased bandwidth on the input side to be able to handle incoming FULL 120Hz (=2x eye L+R * 60Hz) signals.

and/or

B. Have a video rendering/remixing/overlay engine to extract a Side-bySide/TopBottom/Interlaced/Checkerboard/Quincux incoming image and reformat & rebuffer to provide the 120Hz alternating L-R-L-R "Active Shutter" output.

Also, it ought to have an understanding & support for the HDMI 1.4a SEI signalling (check out this link detailing the various modes: http://www.xs4all.nl/~etmriwi/forum/hdmi_spec1.4a_3dextraction.pdf), so that it can automatically recognize which of those input signal types it is receiving and automatically reconfigure the rendering engine, rather than require user understanding and manual settings change. Particularly, this will be important with the 3DBD spec and their usual output of 2x 1080p24 frames packed into a single 1920x2205 framesize (aka "Frame Packing"). For mose info on BD3D, see http://www.blu-raydisc.com/assets/Downloadablefile/BD-ROM_Audio_Visual_Application_For...ions-18780.pdf.

Finally, a fully 3D-ready TV ought to have an internal, synced-to-video-blanking, infrared transmitter for the wireless Active Shutter glasses.

If the TV displays something about "HDMI 1.4" compatiblility or "3D@Home" compliance, you're ensured the most future-proofed capabilities.

Scott

edit>>
This assumes an "Active Shutter" type of display. This year, there will be added a number of displays that will operate via line-alternating micro-polarizing, for use with Passive/Polarized glasses (RealD-compatible Circular-polarized)...

[yoda313]

@cornucopia - wow I thought I was pretty fluent in video tech speak but much of what you posted flew right over my head.

A. Have increased bandwidth on the input side to be able to handle incoming FULL 120Hz (=2x eye L+R * 60Hz) signals.

I'm not sure I follow.

Some 120Hz TVs just take standard incoming 60Hz signals and frame repeat/interpolate them to get to 120Hz.

Do you mean this is similar to the whole interlace versus progessive side of video? I understand that process is this a "similar" concept - I know its not an exact match but is that what you are trying to get at?

B. Have a video rendering/remixing/overlay engine to extract a Side-bySide/TopBottom/Interlaced/Checkerboard/Quincux incoming image and reformat & rebuffer to provide the 120Hz alternating L-R-L-R "Active Shutter" output.

Ok I don't get that. ?????!?!?!?! Obviously I'm new to 3d and I haven't even seen the current gen 3d in action. So I have some learning to do on the whole 3d stuff. I should know about this even if my family doesn't do 3d.

If the TV displays something about "HDMI 1.4" compatiblility or "3D@Home" compliance, you're ensured the most future-proofed capabilities.

Ok I do know about the hdmi 1.4. I know the ps3 is only hdmi 1.3 and can only do 1080i in 3d - Thats not a problem to me.

So hdmi 1.4 and 3d@home are the buzz words to look for? Has 3d@home replaced the previous "3d ready" nomenclature?

------------------------------

One last thing - as long as a set is 120hz will it work with nvidias 3d system regardless of these other factors you bring up? I assume the cards internal hardware and glasses system would take over so long as the tv has 120hz to work with? Or does the nvidia setup also require this new techno speak for 120hz that you mention for "true" 3d?

I obviously have more to learn about video than I thought.

Thanks.

[jagabo]

120Hz, non-3D, HDTVs do not accept 120Hz input, only 60 Hz input. As Cornucopia said, they convert incoming 24 Hz, 30 Hz, or 60 Hz video to 120 Hz for display. Either by repeating frames or creating new frames with interpolated motion. Nvidia 3D requires a monitor that accepts 120 Hz input.

[yoda313]

120Hz, non-3D, TVs do not accept 120Hz input, only 60 Hz input.

Do the specs reveal whether a non3d listed 120hz tv actually has 120hz input or if it has 120hz input at least would it then HAVE to be a 3d or 3d ready tv?

[jagabo]

Do the specs reveal whether a non3d listed 120hz tv actually has 120hz input or if it has 120hz input at least would it then HAVE to be a 3d or 3d ready tv?

Any TV that is capable of 3d will boldly claim it in all advertising, spec sheets, and manuals. It's not some obscure little feature, it's the main selling point of those TVs. Regarding supported input video formats, you can usually find such information in the manual. I'm not aware of any non-3d HDTV that supports 120 Hz input (though, I don't follow this closely). There's no need because there are no 120 Hz TV sources, except for 3d. Standard HD formats are usually 1280x720 60p, 1920x1080 30i, and usually (though not always) 1920x1080 60p.

[Cornucopia]

IF a standard TV accepted 120Hz direct input, you could use it as a dumb 3D display, but you'd need to have a PC be the source, using nVidia 3Dvision (or Stereoscopic Player,etc) set to Frame Sequential (aka Page Flip) in full screen mode and locked to 120Hz (119.88?), AND you'd need to have the PC include the RF transmitter (for the Active Shutter glasses) which might also need additional sync adjustment (there may be delays added downstream from the PC within the TV)
That's alot of IFs...

Yes, in a way, what you are asking is similar to Interlace vs. Progressive bandwidth needs.

3D comes in many flavors. A "3DTV" really only uses ONE 3d display technology, but it often needs to support MULTIPLE 3d storage/transmission formats. That's where the rendering engine comes into play. It's really only an extension of the already existing DeInterlacing & Scaling functions of a TV.

The PS3 comes out of the box with HDMI 1.3 support. The recent 3D firmware upgrades to PS3, in addition to recognizing the new BD3D file structure and MVC codec support and 3D video plane compositing engine, ALSO upgrades the HDMI port to a pseudo-1.4a or 1.4a subset, so it TRULY acts like a 3DBD 1.4a player!**

3D@Home is just the industry consortium that is trying to promote 3D and in doing so, is recommending (some say demanding) certain standards of compatibility. "3d ready" is a little more amorphous.

HTH,

Scott

**Evidently, the PS3 does have trouble supporting the full spec, including 3d + BD-J and fully 3d subtitles & graphics (it does support the 2D+ "compatible" modes)

[yoda313]

Any TV that is capable of 3d will boldly claim it in all advertising, spec sheets, and manuals.

Your point is well taken.

Yes, in a way, what you are asking is similar to Interlace vs. Progressive bandwidth needs.

Ok so I'm not totally lost on the concept. That's good.

ALSO upgrades the HDMI port to a pseudo-1.4a or 1.4a subset, so it TRULY acts like a 3DBD 1.4a player!**

Wow thats impressive. But then again since Sony is trying to push 3d to sell more of its own 3d tvs that it makes it only makes sense for it to make the ps3 as compatible as possible.

**Evidently, the PS3 does have trouble supporting the full spec, including 3d + BD-J and fully 3d subtitles & graphics (it does support the 2D+ "compatible" modes)

Well that's not too surprising since the ps3 was out in the infancy of the current generation of 3d tech. It couldn't forsee all of the little bells and whistles that would come out for it. But its better to have something that works a little than to have to start all over for a bunch of people that got it for a "cheap" bluray player when it first came out.

Thanks everyone. This is clearing up some of my confusion on this whole 3d deal. It may be a long time before myself or my family jumps into 3d but this is helping me get the technological background I need to wade through all the hype and jargon in this realm.

I appreciate the guidance.