Any software/hardware that can record TV in different quality?

[dreamweaver888]

Hi all, thanks for all the advice on here, regarding my earlier question on how to shrink giant MPEG files. It was pointed out that the whole re-encoding process could be avoided if original recorded files were the right size/bitrate. Therefore, I am asking the question:

Is there any computer PVR program that has adjustable quality settings for recording TV programs? So that the needed MPEG-2 files for DVDs are a reasonable size (< 1 GB per hour of recording)? The current WMC/MediaPortal systems I've tried have no quality settings, and a 1 hour recording is 4 GB, way too big for a convenient burn on single-layer DVDs.

Or perhaps there is some hardware that encodes/records TV programs on a PC with adjustable quality settings, just like how a VCR or DVR HDD system does it? Perhaps a USB analog capture device with a hardware MPEG-2 encoder?

Thanks for any advice.

[edDV]

First start by describing which country you are in and which types of TV programs you are recording. Is this analog from over air or cable? Or Satellite? Is it NTSC, PAL, ATSC, QAM, DVB, ...

Each has a solution.

[mh2360]

If you are using WMC with an analog card, I seem to remember a registry setting which controlled recording quality (bitrate).

With a digital (e.g. DVB) source, I don't think there's any way other than recoding the file with a smaller bitrate.

[dreamweaver888]

First start by describing which country you are in and which types of TV programs you are recording. Is this analog from over air or cable? Or Satellite? Is it NTSC, PAL, ATSC, QAM, DVB, ...

Each has a solution.

I'm in California, USA, and subscribe to digital cable service; before it was analog cable. Now we have a cable box for the main TV (many cable and HD channels which can be selected by the box, 990+), while a coaxial cable attaches to a second TV, with the same basic cable channels (2 through 98) as with the earlier analog cable service (can be selected by the TV remote).

I recently got a Windows 7 PC with a built-in "hybrid TV tuner", and connected the coaxial cable from the second TV to the PC. Windows Media Center picked up 9 broadcast HD channels, and I had to manually enter QAM numbers (a trial/error process) to get the basic cable channels to appear in (2 through 98).

My first goal is to record those basic cable channels, but not in a 4GB/hr WTV format like WMC does. I would like to record 5 or 6 episodes of a show (<1GB each) and fit them on one DVD, as I've done previously using an HDD DVR. These DVDs need to be playable on a regular DVD player, thus they should be in MPEG-2 format IIRC.

Based on searching thus far, perhaps I need to get a USB tuner/recorder device with MPEG-2 capabilities? (I have no expansion slots). Or any software programs out there that encode in DVD-friendly MPEG-2? I'm guessing that although WMC/MediaPortal needs no special card to record files in WTV/DVR-MS format, but to get recording in MPEG-2, a special card is needed? If I add a USB analog tuner without a MPEG-2 encoder, is there a program that can record in MPEG? MPG?

If you are using WMC with an analog card, I seem to remember a registry setting which controlled recording quality (bitrate).

With a digital (e.g. DVB) source, I don't think there's any way other than recoding the file with a smaller bitrate.

Sounds to be the case, I was reading that WMC simply records digital signals in full with no size adjustments. I read that if I add in an analog tuner or something WMC will give me bitrate options.

[edDV]

First start by describing which country you are in and which types of TV programs you are recording. Is this analog from over air or cable? Or Satellite? Is it NTSC, PAL, ATSC, QAM, DVB, ...

Each has a solution.

I'm in California, USA, and subscribe to digital cable service; before it was analog cable. Now we have a cable box for the main TV (many cable and HD channels which can be selected by the box, 990+), while a coaxial cable attaches to a second TV, with the same basic cable channels (2 through 98) as with the earlier analog cable service (can be selected by the TV remote).

I recently got a Windows 7 PC with a built-in "hybrid TV tuner", and connected the coaxial cable from the second TV to the PC. Windows Media Center picked up 9 broadcast HD channels, and I had to manually enter QAM numbers (a trial/error process) to get the basic cable channels to appear in (2 through 98).

My first goal is to record those basic cable channels, but not in a 4GB/hr WTV format like WMC does. I would like to record 5 or 6 episodes of a show (<1GB each) and fit them on one DVD, as I've done previously using an HDD DVR. These DVDs need to be playable on a regular DVD player.

Based on searching thus far, perhaps I need to get a USB tuner/recorder device with MPEG-2 capabilities? (I have no expansion slots). Or any software programs out there that encode in DVD-friendly MPEG-2? I'm guessing that although WMC/MediaPortal needs no special card to record files in WTV/DVR-MS format, but to get recording in MPEG-2, a special card is needed?

If you are using WMC with an analog card, I seem to remember a registry setting which controlled recording quality (bitrate).

With a digital (e.g. DVB) source, I don't think there's any way other than recoding the file with a smaller bitrate.

Sounds to be the case, I was reading that WMC simply records digital signals in full with no size adjustments. I read that if I add in an analog tuner or something WMC will give me bitrate options.

So this is mixed analog/digital cable.

Your analog NTSC channels 2-99 can be recorded with a standard DVD recorder or TV tuner same as in the past. MCE should be able to tune these, do an A/D and MCE offers several quality levels in the settings depending on the capability of the tuner card.

The digital unencrypted QAM channels (SD or HD) are usually directly recorded from the cable subchannel as MPeg2 TS. The exact bit rate depends on your local cable company. My Comcast SD QAM channels are recorded at about 2.5-3.5 Mb/s. These are already 720x480i MPeg2 from my Hauppauge tuner*. They can be imported as a DVD asset unchanged for about 3 hrs per layer.

The HD channels are MPeg2 recorded as 1280x720p or 1920x1080i at 10-19 Mb/s. These would need post record conversion to 720x480 MPeg2 for DVD or converted to an "AVCHD" disc structure for HD playback on a Blu-Ray player.

Note that in most California areas, analog cable channels have been reduced to about 20 (mostly the locals) while the rest have been converted to encrypted digital. These need a DTA, a cable box or a Cablecard tuner to receive and record.


* when recorded from the IEEE-1394 port on the HD cable box, these SD streams are 528x480i. That means the Hauppauge card is horizontally resampling these files to 720x480 before saving to a file.

[edDV]

You could use a Hauppauge HD-PVR connected to the analog component outputs of an HD cable box to record to h.264 at various user selected bit rates but I'm unaware of an ATSC/QAM tuner that re-encodes on the fly.

[dreamweaver888]

Thanks for the advice, you've given me a lot to think about, and I really appreciate the detailed response.

For whatever reason, Windows Media Center only recognized a single "digital TV tuner" and I had to enter the QAM frequencies of the analog NTSC channels 2-99 in order for them to appear in Windows Media Center. The same coaxial cable connected to an old analog tuner VCR can get those channels 2-99 without the QAM business.

Anyhow, say I get a USB tuner like the Hauppauge system, then MCE should recognize 2 tuners, the built-in digital and the USB analog. Then it should be able to do different quality recordings? Not sure what "A/D" means. I was reading up on the Hauppauge recording specs and some models offer high and low quality settings, the lower one allows at least several TV episodes, which sounds reasonable.

The thing that isn't clear to me thus far is how many hours can be recorded in MCE for basic cable in lower quality, and in MPEG-2 format (for DVD burning). I'm looking at various USB tuners that offer on-the-fly MPEG-2 encoding (such as the Hauppauge). Except the Hauppauge, it's unclear what the typical file sizes are from many of these USB tuner/encoder/recorders. I'm also not sure how flexible MCE is in interpreting the quality settings, bitrate options etc. for these recorders--but I guess I'll give it a try.

I'm still feeling a bit spoiled though by the VHS-style recording options on my HDD DVR, which can fit 370 minutes in EP mode on a single-layer disc, 250 in LP mode as well. If the Hauppage alllows 1.5 GB per hour of analog TV recording, that makes for possibly 180 minutes on a single-layer DVD.

[edDV]

I've got a Hauppauge HVR-1600 but its on my Vista machine. With Vista, MCE can't see the QAM digital channels. I use BeyondTV instead. I have't used this card with Win7 yet.

With Vista MCE, there are four quality settings for analog channel recording

Fair, Good, Better and Best.

I'd have to test how those translate into bit rates.

But like I said above, there is no hardware recode for digital QAM. You get what the TV station sends. You would have to re-encode in software after recording.

[jagabo]

If you want 4+ hours on a DVD you'll want to use a Half D1 frame size (352x480). My old Hauppauge PVR-250 can capture with those settings. Many other devices can too.

As edDV pointed out, devices that capture digital signals directly normally save the data in its original format.

[dreamweaver888]

Thanks everyone for the advice!!! You guys are great.

[usually_quiet]

Thanks for the advice, you've given me a lot to think about, and I really appreciate the detailed response.

For whatever reason, Windows Media Center only recognized a single "digital TV tuner" and I had to enter the QAM frequencies of the analog NTSC channels 2-99 in order for them to appear in Windows Media Center. The same coaxial cable connected to an old analog tuner VCR can get those channels 2-99 without the QAM business.

Anyhow, say I get a USB tuner like the Hauppauge system, then MCE should recognize 2 tuners, the built-in digital and the USB analog. Then it should be able to do different quality recordings? Not sure what "A/D" means. I was reading up on the Hauppauge recording specs and some models offer high and low quality settings, the lower one allows at least several TV episodes, which sounds reasonable.

The thing that isn't clear to me thus far is how many hours can be recorded in MCE for basic cable in lower quality, and in MPEG-2 format (for DVD burning). I'm looking at various USB tuners that offer on-the-fly MPEG-2 encoding (such as the Hauppauge). Except the Hauppauge, it's unclear what the typical file sizes are from many of these USB tuner/encoder/recorders. I'm also not sure how flexible MCE is in interpreting the quality settings, bitrate options etc. for these recorders--but I guess I'll give it a try.

I'm still feeling a bit spoiled though by the VHS-style recording options on my HDD DVR, which can fit 370 minutes in EP mode on a single-layer disc, 250 in LP mode as well. If the Hauppage alllows 1.5 GB per hour of analog TV recording, that makes for possibly 180 minutes on a single-layer DVD.

If you are entering QAM frequencies and not the analog channel numbers for your "analog channels", you are recording clear QAM digital channels not analog channels. Plus, TV cards with a single hybrid tuner can normally be set up in Windows 7's Media Center to tune either the analog cable channels, or the clear QAM cable channels, but not both at once. This is because there is just the one physical tuner. The Vista Kram HDTV hybrid tuner install routine is a hack that can get around this limitation for some (not all) hybrid tuners, but it doesn't look like you used it. This means you are recording transport streams for everything. As edDV said, you can't control the file sizes for transport streams on the fly, only re-encode them later.

Your second TV without a cable box finds the same channels in analog form because it isn't unusual for cable systems to have both analog and clear QAM versions of the same SD channels.

Be prepared for the possibility of loosing most of your analog and clear QAM channels in the future. It is likely your cable operator will eventually want to repurpose as much of the bandwidth assigned to analog as possible for other uses. They will also probably want to encrypt as many digital channels as they can to discourage anyone from trying to obtain cable service without a subcription. Comcast, my provider is already doing both things in all their service areas.

If you are comfortable with doing registry edits, you could try the Vista Kram HDTV hybrid tuner install routine and see if "finds" your analog tuner. If you are successful, then you can find out if its MPEG2 encoding settings can do what you need.

Other options: If you have an open expansion slot, you could install an additional internal tuner. You could replace the TV card you have with one that has a dual tuners (one digital and one analog)with separate inputs for each tuner. You could get the Hauppauge 1192 HVR-1950 or another USB device that creates MPEG-2 DVD-compatible recordings. According to its documentation, the default settings for the Hauppauge 1192 HVR-1950 result in disk usage of 1.5 GB per hour, but I don't know what other settings are available for it.

I don't think the Hauppauge HD PVR will be a good choice for what you want to do. It is a USB device with no tuner. It records from your cable box outputs and in H.264 format, not MPEG2. An additional plug-in must be purchased for it to work with Media Center. It can also be used with its own ArcSoft software or "HDPVR Capture" trialware. The recordings it produces are smaller, but would need to be converted to MPEG2 in an SD resolution to create a playable DVD. If you have a Blu-Ray player, you could author an AVCHD DVD disc from the H.264 recordings instead. The alternative is to copy the H.264 files to a DVD as data, but only your computer could play them.

[dreamweaver888]

Thanks usually_quiet for the added info. I did not know about the tuner install hack for Windows 7's Media Center. But I'm not sure exactly what kind of hybrid tuner I have, it's listed as: "YUAN mc470/pd470 atsc tuner"; I looked up the manufacturer site and it lists each as:

YUAN MC470
ATSC: terrestrial ATSC TV Reception, HDTV and SDTV Digital TV program

YUAN PD470
Digital TV: ATSC (SD/HD) over the AIR, ClearQAM unencrypted digital cable

Anyhow, all Windows Media Center found was a "Digital Tuner." Now I'm under the impression that I can add an external USB analog tuner (no expansion slots here) and Media Center will detect a second tuner source, and allow some quality-adjustable recording settings (but possibly some other plug-in is needed for that).

However, if the hybrid tuner hack works, that would be great to avoid buying anything extra, with the goal of not having to record transport streams for everything. I've done registry edits before, although I'm not sure I have an analog tuner in the above setup.

The point about analog/clear QAM going away is definitely something to keep in mind, eventually that may occur (possibly rendering the old TVs obsolete, egads!) That, plus the ability to record HD transport streams, has me thinking about adjusting my mindset besides single-layer DVD recordings and encoding; I'm still doing that and probably will for years on, but some files will be just on the computer or burned differently etc.

Anyhow, for now I've been looking at the Hauppauge 1192 HVR-1950, it sounds like a possible option. Have no experience with H.264 but I do have a Blu-Ray player now (not burner). There's a lot to think about, actually this whole thing started for me because of the reports that the HDD DVR market is phasing out, leading me to look at computer recording options. Compared to the simplicity yet limitations of before, this new realm has complexity but possibilities.

Thanks again for sharing your expertise!

[edDV]

The cable companies have agreed to keep clearQAM at least through 2012 and longer for PBS (all subchannels) in a separate agreement..

[usually_quiet]

Thanks usually_quiet for the added info. I did not know about the tuner install hack for Windows 7's Media Center. But I'm not sure exactly what kind of hybrid tuner I have, it's listed as: "YUAN mc470/pd470 atsc tuner"; I looked up the manufacturer site and it lists each as:

YUAN MC470
ATSC: terrestrial ATSC TV Reception, HDTV and SDTV Digital TV program

YUAN PD470
Digital TV: ATSC (SD/HD) over the AIR, ClearQAM unencrypted digital cable

Anyhow, all Windows Media Center found was a "Digital Tuner." Now I'm under the impression that I can add an external USB analog tuner (no expansion slots here) and Media Center will detect a second tuner source, and allow some quality-adjustable recording settings (but possibly some other plug-in is needed for that).

However, if the hybrid tuner hack works, that would be great to avoid buying anything extra, with the goal of not having to record transport streams for everything. I've done registry edits before, although I'm not sure I have an analog tuner in the above setup.

The point about analog/clear QAM going away is definitely something to keep in mind, eventually that may occur (possibly rendering the old TVs obsolete, egads!) That, plus the ability to record HD transport streams, has me thinking about adjusting my mindset besides single-layer DVD recordings and encoding; I'm still doing that and probably will for years on, but some files will be just on the computer or burned differently etc.

Anyhow, for now I've been looking at the Hauppauge 1192 HVR-1950, it sounds like a possible option. Have no experience with H.264 but I do have a Blu-Ray player now (not burner). There's a lot to think about, actually this whole thing started for me because of the reports that the HDD DVR market is phasing out, leading me to look at computer recording options. Compared to the simplicity yet limitations of before, this new realm has complexity but possibilities.

Thanks again for sharing your expertise!

I looked for more information on the the Vista Kram HDTV hybrid tuner install routine, and it looks like it won't be helpful to you. The best source of information I found, hdtvtunerinfo.com, says it's only good for Vista. Also your tuner isn't in hdtvtunerinfo's list for tuners that work with the Kram drivers. Sorry about that.

I'm confused. You said you have a built-in hybrid tuner, which I would expect to be an internal TV card with an single ATSC/QAM/NTSC tuner.

However, when I went to http://www.yuan.com.tw/en/products/tuner/productscontent1.htm I found the item with the model number you gave is an ATSC/QAM USB stick. Neither analog cable or NTSC is listed, so it is only good for ATSC/QAM.

How did you obtain the model number, what documentation described it is a hybrid tuner, and is this device an external USB stick or an internal card?

Here's a clarification on one earlier statement of mine. Based on the description provided for the service you have, you seem to have at least 80 channels available as both analog and clear QAM. These are apparently not just local stations, but also most of the cable-only channels in your package. Here's why I said there is a possibility you could loose most of them. The FCC currently requires only local broadcast channels to be provided in clear QAM. The primary channel of locals broadcast stations are also required to be provided in analog until 2012, unless the cable provider qualifies for a financial hardship waiver. Cable providers are free to do as they please otherwise. Some are choosing to reduce analog service to about 20 mostly local channels, and more and more are encrypting the majority of their digital offerings. Also, 2012 is a year away, and as far as I have been able to find out, no announcement has been made regarding an extension of current FCC policies.

[dreamweaver888]

Thanks for looking up that info, I appreciate your time, it's more than I could ask. For now, all this information will suffice, as I am just trying out a number of these options and possibilities.

The "hybrid tuner" was something the computer sales indicated to me, but it was just a guess and not specific. I got the actual model number by checking the Device Manager in the Windows 7 Control Panel. It's an internal card, but sounds like it is just an ATSC/QAM card. Therefore, if I want to get analog channels, I would need to get an USB analog tuner or something.

But, as mentioned, analog offerings may be gone, and possibly clear QAM as well in the near future, so any planned recording/tuner setups have to keep this in mind. Maybe in the future I will need cable boxes for every input to a TV, as the analog tuners will no longer work.

If everything is only QAM, then I'm guessing PC recordings will be digital recordings in original format, necessitating conversion to MPEG-2 for standard DVD players. Or possibly try H.264 format or something for Blu-Ray.

I guess the current and forthcoming PC recording methods are more towards saving on disk rather than burning to DVD (which may eventually be obsolete), which is why conversion has to be done to MPEG-2 format. With media servers and streaming to devices I guess the use of disc media is being supplanted.