Takers DVD contains Cinavia protection

[TooLFooL]

i haven't seen any threads on this forum really regarding "cinavia" protection on bluray dvds... its very interesting! well today its official.. this protection is included on regular dvds also. the new release "takers" has this protection, and if you were to rip and burn this dvd, and play it back on your PS3, the cinavia protection will kick in after 20 minutes and mute the audio.

i am really surprised there isn't any information regarding cinavia on videohelp?!..

[Baldrick]

Cause so few blu-rays contain it?

I follow http://forum.slysoft.com/showthread.php?t=41885 and http://forum.dvdfab.com/showthread.php?t=7102

[TooLFooL]

i have been reading those threads also.....! but this is BRAND NEW protection, and obviously, it is about to be EVERYWHERE... one simple solution so far was to overlay the standard dvd audio onto the bluray, but with standard dvds protected as well, this won't work either.

but my point was the regular, standard dvd, if ripped and burnt as usual, will also trigger the new protection on a PS3 or any other cinavia-enabled player. this is going to be a HUGE problem for people who backup thier dvds but play them back on a new player.

[jman98]

i have been reading those threads also.....! but this is BRAND NEW protection, and obviously, it is about to be EVERYWHERE...

That is completely wrong. Why? For example, ARCCOS, which is a pretty clever DVD copy protection mechanism, is NOT everywhere. Neither will this be. Sony Pictures uses ARCCOS. They use Cinavia.

It costs money to use these types of protection on disc. The companies that came up with them charge Sony for using their products. Let's say it costs $25,000 (a figure I pulled out the air) to protect each title. Imagine that you are the head of a movie studio.
1) Your profits will be reduced by $25,000 for EACH title you protect. For movies that don't sell a lot of copies, this may be cost prohibitive. Yet those movies may actually be profitable and you want to put them out.
2) You know that even though you use these products to "protect" your discs that people will find a way around them anyway and your discs will be copied.

Do you still decide to pay to use these products?

The fact that Sony does just shows you how absolutely insane the people who run them are.

Cinavia is really not all that clever. It basically tries to enforce the use of a software program to act as a gatekeeper on whether to play a disc or not. Such schemes have not worked in the past and will not work now.

[TooLFooL]

well, maybe not EVERYWHERE, but everyone is brushing it off saying "so what? theres only 5 movies..." well, first it was "only 1 movie" then "only 2"....

my point is, its brand new, it is completely stumping the crowd at the moment, and it IS INDEED affecting regular dvd releases now, as of today...

[Chopmeister]

This is the first I have heard of this.

Pretty clear, however, that it required a Cinavia-enabled player that looks for (and respects) the watermark in order to work. Which essentially means that you should avoid these and just go with the cheapie non-cinavia players.

Not surprised that it is the PS3 that is first off the blocks, given Sony's anti-consumer ethos and mania for DRM. But, as there are plenty of players out there that aren't Cinavia enabled, this means that effectively all they have done is affix a big "DON'T BUY ME" sticker to the PS3 and any other players with this "feature" incorporated.

Annoying if it becomes widespread and embedded in media players as well - I rip all my purchased disks to a couple of dirty great hard drives, put them in a cupboard, and play the films with WD TV Lives instead. No more scratched discs, missing films and empty cases to deal with.

Now, we just need a tool built to process the audio streams on a PC, as part of the re-authoring/re-encoding process, to strip this sludge out.

[sum_guy]

Encryption was made to be decrypted.

[dvdsham]

i have been reading those threads also.....! but this is BRAND NEW protection, and obviously, it is about to be EVERYWHERE... one simple solution so far was to overlay the standard dvd audio onto the bluray, but with standard dvds protected as well, this won't work either.

but my point was the regular, standard dvd, if ripped and burnt as usual, will also trigger the new protection on a PS3 or any other cinavia-enabled player. this is going to be a HUGE problem for people who backup thier dvds but play them back on a new player.

Sounds like an old school scheme. Can you mark the time track down and describe the video scene when the audio drops out. Have you tried converting the file to another file and then convert the new file back to the original format?

[TooLFooL]

this IS very much like an old-skool scheme, and to me personally its pretty facinating and amazing because it is very effective. i have been following a few threads found here..

http://forum.dvdfab.com/showthread.php?t=7102
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=155777
http://forum.slysoft.com/showthread.php?t=41885

apparently this is analog audio watermarking that can survive cellphone-quality transmission. there is much heated debate as to its' relevance, but to ME that's some pretty outstanding low-tech advancement!

[ricoman]

Also, something to point out, it apparently can be installed on a "clean" DVD/Bluray player with a firmware update. So don't update your firmware unless it is absolutely necessary and wait until others do it to get a report rather than update automatically because it's new fw.

[sum_guy]

Why can't the BD be ripped to say MKV or MP4 and then converted back to BD again, or DVD? Re-encoding the audio should kill the protection schema. Of course Xbox 360 users are probably having a good laugh over this since only Sony PS3's seem to be affected. I don't know of a single media PC affected either.

With Sonys passion for beating pirating, it looks like a good time to avoid Sony hardware, or Sony Warner Brothers Productions. In the long run, I'm not even sure BD is here to stay, whole other topic of course, but I digress, this can be defeated, flat out.

Many auto makers have gone to great lengths to prevent auto theft, yet those same vehicles are incredibly easy to beat, and the solutions are usually incredibly simple.

I would try not to over think this, some solutions to this amount to backing the date and time up 20 minutes etc.

This is not the end all of BD, personally, I don't care, but I do so enjoy beating the big dollar boys with 10 cent solutions.

[TooLFooL]

It survives conversion and re-encoding. This isn't only affecting the PS3.. There's about a half-dozen bluray players already Cinavia enabled, and I'm sure more will follow. Many people are using a new bluray player to play all their dvd content, and this means they soon won't be able to play newer backups until the solution is found.

[ricoman]

There is a fairly in-depth thread on the Slysoft forum including the affected standalone players. Here's the sticky: http://forum.slysoft.com/showthread.php?t=41885

and here's the thread: http://forum.slysoft.com/showthread.php?t=41581

[jagabo]

Re-encoding the audio should kill the protection schema.

No. It's designed to survive reencoding and other distortions.

Of course Xbox 360 users are probably having a good laugh over this since only Sony PS3's seem to be affected.

Until Cinavia becomes mandatory for a Blu-ray license (like AACS and HDCP already are).

[Chopmeister]

If they told us exactly how to detect it, they would effectively also tell us how to remove it. Accordingly, I'm pretty sure that they won't release the details of the encoding scheme and watermark detection, so it will never be implemented in open source players like VLC and its ilk. These can already play most types of media files. This means that, if worst comes to worst, those who care will just have to use laptops connected to TVs to replace stand-alone media players. And actually, a laptop with a good GPU and HDPI out, coupled with a media remote and the right software makes a pretty good, albeit slightly expensive, media player - ethernet, wireless, full HD and boundless flexibility.

I suspect most genuine pirates already watch downloaded material on their computers anyway. So it will add cost and inconvenience for most legitimate consumers, add another layer of utterly unnecessary cost and complexity to equipment, and will be utterly ineffective in dealing with genuine piracy. Actually, pretty much par for the course for Sony!

I am puzzled as to exactly how this works however. While I can't claim to be highly knowledgeable about AV encoding, I am not sure how the watermark can be in the track mastered to the disc - otherwise the player would detect the watermark and reject original discs as well as copies? If instead, like macrovision, it is added by the player when the disc is played, then ripping should bypass this addition?

[dvdsham]

I gave up using standalone DVD players since 2007. Now I just use the WDTV live network media player and stream all my movies from a file server over my network. If WDTV ever started supporting some sort of DRM then I wound only switch to using a computer on my home theater projector. I'm just waiting for the day to come where someone will design a device that will convert a USB DVD ROM drive into a standalone DVD player/recorder that will be free of DRM!

[guns1inger]

I am puzzled as to exactly how this works however. While I can't claim to be highly knowledgeable about AV encoding, I am not sure how the watermark can be in the track mastered to the disc - otherwise the player would detect the watermark and reject original discs as well as copies? If instead, like macrovision, it is added by the player when the disc is played, then ripping should bypass this addition?

The watermark identifies the medium the audio comes from. Theatre audio has a different watermark to DVD, which is different to Bluray. The player looks at the watermark and the medium, and makes a call. Put theatre line audio recorded from a headset jack againts a DVD video, and you have a mismatch that triggers the player. Put a DVD audio track on a DVDR and you have a mis-match. Put a Bluray on a BD blank or AVCHD and you have a mismatch. Basically the watermark must match the medium, and the medium must be original.

[TooLFooL]

exactly, the audio is somehow encoded with a signal or pattern that isn't noticable to the listener, but is good enough to trigger the player when say 'recorded in the theater with a camcorder' then burnt to disc and played on an AACS player. I personally have a hard time believing all the magic is strictly contained in the audio track, but all the results from these other threads point to that fact. one user claimed to play an original commercial bluray, pointed a camcorder at the wall and recorded the audio coming out of his systems speakers, burnt the resulting video to disc, and it triggered cinavia upon playback! my initial thought was the video must be marked also but this test disproved that theory! here's some info straight from thier website, pretty wild stuff!....
http://www.cinavia.com/languages/english/pages/technology.html

[Chopmeister]

Interesting.

Given that the alternatives are either using disc based players, which are getting this feature, and using media players (I also use WD TV Lives) and computers without it, this tips the balance fairly decisively in my view. As to whether I use media players or blu ray players as my primary source when I rebuild my media setup shortly, this has probably swung the decision pretty decisively.

Ultimately this will be broken too. As soon as people figure out what the inaudible codes are that the Cinavia kit looks for, it doesn't seen too much of a stretch to imagine that someone will quickly devise a tool that inspects a ripped audio track for the same thing and then removes it.

[mrswla]

How about firmware hacks? Cinavia will not work if the players don't look for it right? Just like there are players with firmware hacks to not obey the region coding on dvds/blurays, why can't there be firmware hacks that don't obey the cinavia feature?

[jagabo]

How about firmware hacks? Cinavia will not work if the players don't look for it right? Just like there are players with firmware hacks to not obey the region coding on dvds/blurays, why can't there be firmware hacks that don't obey the cinavia feature?

You know that most region hacks are built into the firmware, right? They are there so the manufacturer can build a single player for all regions -- then simply set the region code before they leave the factory. It's not likely players will include a hidden Cinavia override option that you can enable via a few button presses on the remote. It's much harder to truly hack the firmware (ie, reverse engineer it and modify the program), though it can be done.

[TooLFooL]

Cinavia is the new MacroVision, and is a part of AACS. Until someone hacks that, there will be no simple solution.

[dvdsham]

Kinda sounds like Audiable Magic, http://audiblemagic.com after all You Tube does use this software that will scan almost like finger print. Cinavia protection very well might be working the same way!

[dvdsham]

Cinavia is the new MacroVision, and is a part of AACS. Until someone hacks that, there will be no simple solution.

Macrovision is now rovi corporation... http://www.rovicorp.com/

[dvdsham]

haha... Cinavia It is not an encryption. It works like how dogs hear! It's an inaudible sound wave undetected to the human ear...but, however extremely good sound equipment might be able to find this inaudible sound...find the frequency filter it! Now that I know how it works on a fact bases It is very easy to get rid of this protection! This type of technology is not even new, it's been around for a very long time! In fact, it's used on CDs all the time for track information. The very same technology is used by Radio Stations that will broadcast a text message to car stereos that are capable of decoding the signal... usually advertisement streams and the name of the song and artist! This is also used by Syrus Radio! No wonder it can be hacked so easy! Software can easily filter it!

Here is a way of getting a better picture. Infrared remotes will emit inaudible sound waves all that is required to hear the sound is a decoder very much like the receiver in the TV. Take the remote control and put it up close to an AM Radio receiver and start pressing the buttons. You should hear the audible signals coming out from the speakers. The closer the Infrared is to the AM receiver the better the sound.

[TooLFooL]

No, I meant Cinavia is going to replace MacroVision as an analog protection. I didn't mean to imply they were the same company, sorry!

[jman98]

No, I meant Cinavia is going to replace MacroVision as an analog protection. I didn't mean to imply they were the same company, sorry!

Depends on the cost. Sony and Disney are the most paranoid of the major Hollywood studios, so the fact that to date ONLY Sony has been using this is nothing to become alarmed about it. When Universal, who NEVER uses ARCCOS and crap like that, gets on board then I will agree with you.

Keep in mind dvdsham's post and the fact that VERY smart people are interested in defeating this protection just to show they can. To date Hollywood has yet to implement a protection mechanism that can't be cracked. Judging by past experience it wouldn't surprise me at all if in the end it turns out that Cinavia has some sort of poor programming that will make it trivial to defeat it.

[Cornucopia]

haha... Cinavia It is not an encryption. It works like how dogs hear! It's an inaudible sound wave undetected to the human ear...but, however extremely good sound equipment might be able to find this inaudible sound...find the frequency filter it! Now that I know how it works on a fact bases It is very easy to get rid of this protection! This type of technology is not even new, it's been around for a very long time! In fact, it's used on CDs all the time for track information. The very same technology is used by Radio Stations that will broadcast a text message to car stereos that are capable of decoding the signal... usually advertisement streams and the name of the song and artist! This is also used by Syrus Radio! No wonder it can be hacked so easy! Software can easily filter it!

Here is a way of getting a better picture. Infrared remotes will emit inaudible sound waves all that is required to hear the sound is a decoder very much like the receiver in the TV. Take the remote control and put it up close to an AM Radio receiver and start pressing the buttons. You should hear the audible signals coming out from the speakers. The closer the Infrared is to the AM receiver the better the sound.

I'm pretty sure it's NOT as simple as that. If it were, it would be very easy to record/capture the audio, apply a digital LowPass, BandPass, or HighPass filter, and send that to the TV to see whether it's defeated or not.
I concur that it's likely a Steganographic Fingerprint matched to ROM Mark (or other media identifier).

Scott

[Gavino]

Infrared remotes will emit inaudible sound waves all that is required to hear the sound is a decoder very much like the receiver in the TV. Take the remote control and put it up close to an AM Radio receiver and start pressing the buttons. You should hear the audible signals coming out from the speakers.

How can a radio receiver detect sound waves?
A radio doesn't echo back if you shout at it.

More likely you mean the remote emits EM radiation which is converted into sound by the radio (that's what radios do).

[dvdsham]

Infrared remotes will emit inaudible sound waves all that is required to hear the sound is a decoder very much like the receiver in the TV. Take the remote control and put it up close to an AM Radio receiver and start pressing the buttons. You should hear the audible signals coming out from the speakers.

How can a radio receiver detect sound waves?
A radio doesn't echo back if you shout at it.

More likely you mean the remote emits EMF radiation which is converted into sound by the radio (that's what radios do).

The remote does not emit any major amount of EM, it is only light that is emitted. You can replace the infrared LED with a normal LED and it will not work nor would the radio get that sound from the remote when up against an AM radio. I only used the remote control as a comparison. Those sounds you hear that the remote makes when placed against the AM radio, those same sounds in the inaudible range is how the receivers decoder hears those impulses.

Devices that are used to keep rodents away like the very ones that plug in the wall receptacle in homes, emit the inaudible frequency that humans and some pets cannot hear. When it comes to Cinavia, the same thing is happening only for when the decoder receives the frequency it disables the sound....if they wanted to they could actually power down the player with it. Lets say a voice activated mechanism, it too works the same way only for it is designed to pick up audible sounds that start the electronic components to operate.