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  1. Member
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    Originally Posted by Cornucopia View Post
    Originally Posted by dvdsham View Post
    haha... Cinavia It is not an encryption. It works like how dogs hear! It's an inaudible sound wave undetected to the human ear...but, however extremely good sound equipment might be able to find this inaudible sound...find the frequency filter it! Now that I know how it works on a fact bases It is very easy to get rid of this protection! This type of technology is not even new, it's been around for a very long time! In fact, it's used on CDs all the time for track information. The very same technology is used by Radio Stations that will broadcast a text message to car stereos that are capable of decoding the signal... usually advertisement streams and the name of the song and artist! This is also used by Syrus Radio! No wonder it can be hacked so easy! Software can easily filter it!

    Here is a way of getting a better picture. Infrared remotes will emit inaudible sound waves all that is required to hear the sound is a decoder very much like the receiver in the TV. Take the remote control and put it up close to an AM Radio receiver and start pressing the buttons. You should hear the audible signals coming out from the speakers. The closer the Infrared is to the AM receiver the better the sound.
    I'm pretty sure it's NOT as simple as that. If it were, it would be very easy to record/capture the audio, apply a digital LowPass, BandPass, or HighPass filter, and send that to the TV to see whether it's defeated or not.
    I concur that it's likely a Steganographic Fingerprint matched to ROM Mark (or other media identifier).

    Scott
    Okay, here is one method that might work, apply another inaudible sound. My theory is that it will confuse the circuit that is listening for the Cinavia inaudible sound. For comparison: take two Infrared remote controls one in each hand, turn on your TV or stereo or any remote control unit like say your DVD player, press a button on your DVD or stereo remote and keep it down, now try changing the channel on your TV. You won't be able to. The reason why is because you jammed the spectrum.
    Last edited by dvdsham; 20th Jan 2011 at 14:21.
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  2. This is suppose to work with the ps3 to be able to watch cinavia
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  3. Originally Posted by dvdsham View Post
    Okay, here is one method that might work, apply another inaudible sound. My theory is that it will confuse the circuit that is listening for the Cinavia inaudible sound.
    You don't think a company that specializes in audio steganography thought of such a simple exploit?

    I saw a good study of Youtube/AudibleMagic a while back. A guy took a sound track from a popular CD and used it as an audio track for a video he uploaded to YouTube. He ran all kinds of audio filters before uploading. He found that changing the pitch or tempo by about 6 percent was sufficient to fool AudibleMagic. Eventually he discovered that the fingerprinting was based on the first 30 seconds of the original audio recording. So all he had to do was not use the first 30 seconds of the song in his upload! He was banned from YouTube soon after.

    http://www.csh.rit.edu/~parallax/
    Last edited by jagabo; 20th Jan 2011 at 14:49.
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    Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    Originally Posted by dvdsham View Post
    Okay, here is one method that might work, apply another inaudible sound. My theory is that it will confuse the circuit that is listening for the Cinavia inaudible sound.
    You don't think a company that specializes in audio steganography thought of that?
    Probably!
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    Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    Originally Posted by dvdsham View Post
    Okay, here is one method that might work, apply another inaudible sound. My theory is that it will confuse the circuit that is listening for the Cinavia inaudible sound.
    You don't think a company that specializes in audio steganography thought of such a simple exploit?

    I saw a good study of Youtube/AudibleMagic a while back. A guy took a sound track from a popular CD and used it as an audio track for a video he uploaded to YouTube. He ran all kinds of audio filters before uploading. He found that changing the pitch or tempo by about 6 percent was sufficient to fool AudibleMagic. Eventually he discovered that the fingerprinting was based on the first 30 seconds of the original audio recording. So all he had to do was not use the first 30 seconds of the song in his upload! He was banned from YouTube soon after.

    http://www.csh.rit.edu/~parallax/
    Yeah and I was one the people that got banned for showing another method. You can change the speed of the track just up a bit without any notice of the increased speed. They also do it with video now to as well and to get around the video finger print is to change the brightness and enlarge the image just a little! I got baned for showing that to!
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  6. Disgustipated TooLFooL's Avatar
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    @dvdsham... these are NOT inaudible frequencies, that's what is so interesting about the whole thing!... you can record the audio with a mic and an old tape recorder, convert it and burn it to a disc, and it will trigger the protection on the player! the watermark is there, perfectly audible, and is designed to survive through very low quality recording. basically, "camcorder bootlegs" taken in-theater and burnt to disc, ANY disc, will trigger the protection on your AACS player (bluray, PS3). if you read through those other forums you will see it is VERY advanced, and by no means "easy to hack" or "easy to filter". they have been working on this for YEARS now...
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    Originally Posted by TooLFooL View Post
    @dvdsham... these are NOT inaudible frequencies, that's what is so interesting about the whole thing!... you can record the audio with a mic and an old tape recorder, convert it and burn it to a disc, and it will trigger the protection on the player! the watermark is there, perfectly audible, and is designed to survive through very low quality recording. basically, "camcorder bootlegs" taken in-theater and burnt to disc, ANY disc, will trigger the protection on your AACS player (bluray, PS3). if you read through those other forums you will see it is VERY advanced, and by no means "easy to hack" or "easy to filter". they have been working on this for YEARS now...
    It's inaudible to the human ear! Devices still pick it up! I got a feeling that Cinavia will be used in the movie theater. Trust me it will be hacked! I don't have the equipment yet....but I will. I'm basing what I know on what I am reading and what other people are saying. How it is described by everyone such as yourself is saying, I know now that it is indeed an inaudible sound to humans but not to the equipment we use to record material on such as a video camera. A frequency pitch is being emitted and when recorded on a non matching disc, you get the Cinavia.

    If you have the equipment already for experimenting then how about trying this, get an anti rodent device from walmart or hardware store and plug it right next to your video camera while at the same time playing a Cinavia protected clip. It might very well confuse the circuit!
    Last edited by dvdsham; 20th Jan 2011 at 15:10.
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  8. Disgustipated TooLFooL's Avatar
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    no! it's only inaudible because you dont know what you are listening for! it is well within the range of human hearing.. if it were inaudible, it wouldn't easily survive re-encoding or re-recording, and it WOULD be easy to defeat. they call it 'inaudible' but it should be called 'unnoticable'. also, it reportedly IS being used in theaters, and has been for a year now...

    taken straight from cinavia.com:
    How does Cinavia technology work?

    Movies protected by Cinavia technology carry inaudible codes embedded by the copyright owner in their audio tracks that indicate where and how they are allowed to be used.
    For example, movies that are being released to theaters can carry a Cinavia code that indicates that they are supposed to be duplicated by professional replicators and played back on professional projection equipment only.
    Movies that are released on Blu-ray Disc, DVD, or by authorized download services, can carry a different Cinavia code, indicating that these movies are intended for use by consumers, but with limitations regarding whether or how they can be copied.
    The Cinavia codes are designed to stay in the audio tracks wherever they appear, including after they are copied, converted to different formats, or captured by a camcorder.
    Blu-ray Disc players read Cinavia codes from the audio track of video that they are playing or copying and may limit the use of the video when certain unauthorized uses are identified. Playback or copying of unauthorized copies may be stopped or audio may be muted, depending on which Cinavia code is found and what operation is being performed. This may include limiting the unauthorized use of the audio tracks that accompany professionally produced videos in home movies and other personal recordings. Whenever the use of content is limited due to a Cinavia code, an explanatory message is provided on the video screen or on the front panel of the Blu-ray Disc player.
    In any case, you can rest assured that Cinavia technology is not “watching” what you are watching. By design, it can not collect or transmit information about you, your viewing habits or media selections. Cinavia codes are not individualized to you, the media, or the devices that you own and never contain any personal or personally identifiable information.
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  9. Disgustipated TooLFooL's Avatar
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    damn, you edited while i was replying!
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  10. I wonder if Sony TV sets will start having this too.

    The other question in my mind is if the Sony Movie Channel will use it too.

    Sony sound systems?

    It seems to me that it could be added to anything that handles sound.
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    If somebody is willing to do this: rip the movie, drop out all sound tracks. Burn it to disc and see what happens...If it is a finger print or "water mark" it will be in the video blanking signal.
    If that is the case, adjust the picture setting in three phases. 1: make a blue Image and burn it to disc. 2: Make a red Image and burn it to disc. 3 Make a green image and burn it to disc.

    If it is a water mark it will not appear on one of color images. Good luck!
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  12. Disgustipated TooLFooL's Avatar
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    someone has already used a camcorder pointed at the wall, only effectively recording the audio... it still triggered the protection! it is definetly in the AUDIO
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    it i were trying to trying to defeat it, i'd get the same video with the protection and one without. subtract the audio without protection from the audio with. that would leave whatever the protection is adding. save it and them subtract the saved file from all future videos with it. that should at least mess up the frequencies they are using enough to confuse it.
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  14. Disgustipated TooLFooL's Avatar
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    starting on page 82, Cinavia is part of the new AACS agreement
    http://www.aacsla.com/license/AACS_Content_Participant_Agrmt_090619.pdf
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  15. Disgustipated TooLFooL's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by aedipuss View Post
    i'd get the same video with the protection and one without
    if an unprotected video existed, there wouldn't be an issue...
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  16. aBigMeanie aedipuss's Avatar
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    oh i don't know, maybe there is an r5 release around....
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    Originally Posted by TooLFooL View Post
    someone has already used a camcorder pointed at the wall, only effectively recording the audio... it still triggered the protection! it is definetly in the AUDIO
    Okay so here are the facts: It's defiantly a frequency then. It's a sound that we can't hear or just not paying attention closely enough. It must be in the full range and not in the low range field in order for recording devices to receive this sound. It's protection is on a DVD disc and it can be used in a theater. The Original movie audio when played does not trigger the Cinavia Protection but only when an unauthorized copy of the audio is played in an enabled machine.

    Theory: When all DVD discs and CDs are scanned, some if not most of us know that each disc has a digital serial number (can be found using command prompt on a windows machine) Example: E:\>label
    Volume in drive E: is NEW_DAUGHTER
    Volume Serial Number is A87F-1374
    Which is an unauthorized copy BTW

    So, the original DVD must be communicating information that only the Cinavia Circuit understands. If this is the case then it will not trigger the mute function that Cinavia causes. I doubt every Cinavia copy will have the same serial number but it might contain data that our computers are not reading or just ignoring. Perhaps there is a code required to communicate with the Cinavia circuit very much like the volume serial number.
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  18. Disgustipated TooLFooL's Avatar
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    it's simpler than that... the audio has a TRUSTED_SOURCE flag. if the trusted source is flagged "commercial bluray dvd" but is being read off of a DVD-R, there's a mismatch.
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    Has anyone tried a clone?
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  20. Disgustipated TooLFooL's Avatar
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    someone did a 1:1 copy using cloneBD i think... either way, if the disc dont match what it's supposed to be, and/or isn't AACS encoded, it won't work!

    yeah here... http://forum.slysoft.com/showthread.php?t=41885&page=51

    i'm surprised with all the "analog old-timers" on this forum, there isn't more interest in the subject. as an electronics enthusiast, i find it very technically interesting!
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    Originally Posted by TooLFooL View Post
    someone did a 1:1 copy using cloneBD i think... either way, if the disc dont match what it's supposed to be, and/or isn't AACS encoded, it won't work!

    yeah here... http://forum.slysoft.com/showthread.php?t=41885&page=51

    i'm surprised with all the "analog old-timers" on this forum, there isn't more interest in the subject. as an electronics enthusiast, i find it very technically interesting!
    I am getting interested in this big time! I read that someone has the problem with a pioneer player. Is this protection only on the blu-ray or dvd as well?
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  22. It's being added to the chipset SDKs used in DVD/media players.
    http://www.anandtech.com/show/4110/netgear-ces-2011/2
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  23. Disgustipated TooLFooL's Avatar
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    it's only on AACS players, which includes a handful of current bluray players and the PS3, and most likely all next gen bluray players. it can be implemented on anything played on the player. any content, bluray or dvd, can be watermarked. if the audio doesn't match the trusted media source, it will either stop playback or mute the audio.

    honestly, i don't see what could stop them from encoding ANY content, from music to ringtones, and prevent it from being played through your fancy new PS3 media player...
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  24. aBigMeanie aedipuss's Avatar
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    can't wait to get an lp record with it more distortion to already low-fi cds and dreadful mp3s. great.
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  25. I haven't seen anyone say they demuxed the audio, changed the tempo a fraction, reversed the tracks, run high or low pass filters on it, or modify it enough to convince me this is impossible, just lots of bitching that it can't be defeated. I am not adopting Bluray so I really don't care either way, however...

    I wish someone would send me an audio sample, any format, I'd love to examine this, or say an hour in compressed mp4 of the audio and the video, I'll put back up on one of my servers and you can download my resulting file if I think I'm successful.

    sumunknown_guy@hotmail.com

    Lets try to keep the sample under say 5 gigs in size please. Or you give me a download link on a server and I'll download it.
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  26. Looks like Fengtao is making this whole problem go away pretty quickly, DVDFab...

    "the first solution to disable Cinavia is here. DVDFab has a new way of creating backups so they don't trigger Cinavia anymore. This solution is particularly useful for PS3 users who were the most affected by Cinavia. What makes it a great solution is that the disc is much like the original, a protected backup so the Cinavia-enabled player will see it as trusted source and will play it back just like the original. People have made protected (isos) backups in the past, but those had the disadvantage that they only worked with the programs that made them; well, these protected backups are supposed to work on standalone players too.

    Technical details: the discs created are called BDMV-REC as they are AACS protected recordable BDMV. Another solution would be AACS protected BDAV, like the ones produced by Japanese BD recorders.

    Requirements:
    • original Blu-ray disc with Cinavia watermark. DVDFab and DVDFab Passkey will tell if you have such a disc
    • a BD-RE (recommended for initial tests) or BD-R disc to store the protected backup
    • a BD writer
    • updated writing software. DVDFab checks for it anyway
    Pros:
    • It is a solution to disable Cinavia, exactly as it is disabled for the original disc, due to (AACS) protection layer being active.
    • DVDFab does all the tricks involved to create such a protected backup at a push of a button.
    • The disc can preserve all the original features like menus, interactivity, BD-Live.
    • Broad firmware support: PS3 users with firmware from 1.60 and up to 3.55 can use BDMV-REC discs; fw3.55 is the latest at the time of writing.
    • At any time, DVDFab or DVDFab Passkey can be used to remove the protection, if you need to.
    • This is kind of an official solution, because it involves support from AACS standards, the same standards that force adoption of Cinavia
    • While we tested it on PS3 for now, it may work on other players too. As results from tests will become available we'll update you with. Also it seems that only PS3 has Cinavia detector in current, up-to-date firmware (others disabled it, like LG, or just announced it for future firmware). "
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  27. Disgustipated TooLFooL's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by sum_guy View Post
    I haven't seen anyone say they demuxed the audio, changed the tempo a fraction, reversed the tracks, run high or low pass filters on it, or modify it enough to convince me this is impossible
    there has been lots experimentation on the other forums i posted links to. it has been defeated with a 50% pitch shift, beyond that nobody knows what they're looking for yet.

    and while Fengtao has come up with one method that temporarily works, it is far from the solution...
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    Perhaps somebody can write firmware for the PS3 that will disable Cinavia..after all the PS3 has now been jailbreaked by geohot. http://www.geohot.com/
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    This is how Cinavia protection is working but not necessarily at any of these frequencies. Try listening to the very last sample at the following site: http://www.soundsnap.com/search/audio/10hz/score
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  30. Originally Posted by TooLFooL View Post
    Originally Posted by sum_guy View Post
    I haven't seen anyone say they demuxed the audio, changed the tempo a fraction, reversed the tracks, run high or low pass filters on it, or modify it enough to convince me this is impossible
    there has been lots experimentation on the other forums i posted links to. it has been defeated with a 50% pitch shift, beyond that nobody knows what they're looking for yet.

    and while Fengtao has come up with one method that temporarily works, it is far from the solution...
    The bigger problem with the solution Fengtao has come up with is that it will not work to llet you create a video file that is unprotected. Imagine you are happily playing rips on your media player and a firmware update comes along and now the cinavia protection makes your rip useless.

    Anything that can stream netflix already has one form of DRM in it, so adding cinavia to it isn't that big a longshot.
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