VHS to Digital Problems

[CamaroDMD]

OK, so I am attempting to transfer some of old home movies and a few football games I taped years ago on VHS to digital and I am having some troubles. First off, I am using a ATI TV Wonder HD 600 PCI Express Capture Card and am running RCA cables from a VCR to my computer. I am using Catalyst Media Center as my capturing software. Yesterday I attempted to transfer one of my favorite games (1998 Army/Navy) and have had a few annoying problems. First off, there seems to be some kind of interruption in the video pretty frequently. It will be running nicely and then for about a second there will be "snow" and the normal sound that comes with it...then it will return to normal. It is happening frequently enough to be a problem. Also, the videos that were recorded were saved as 4 separate files of about 1:06 each. Sometimes, it cuts in the middle of a play. I'm sure I can edit the files into one 4 and a half hour video, but I don't want to mess up any of the plays. I wish it had kept it as one file. Finally, it has encoded it as an mpeg and each 1:06 segment (each of which are 3.9GB). Again, I sure once I cut out commercials and reencode it into a better format, the size will be much more tolerable.

As for the first problem, I am wondering if there is anything wrong with my card. I had a hard time getting it to recognize any media in the past and even now it's kind of buggy it seems. I know the VHS doesn't have those frequent interruptions because I have watched this game several times in the past. I would really like to get this game and several others transferred but I have to solve these problems. Any advice you guys can give me would be great. If I need different software or even a different card, please let me know.

I am very inexperienced with this kind of thing...so perhaps I am making some dumb mistake. But, I would appreciate any help. Thanks!

[CamaroDMD]

Also, this might help:

System specs:
Intel Core2Quad Q6600 2.40GHz processor
NVIDIA GTX465 1GB PCI Express Video Card
4GB PC2 6400 Ram
500GB Segate 7200rpm Hard Drive (Primary) NTFS
2TB Western Digital 7200rpm Hard Drive (Secondary) NFTS
ATI TV Wonder HD 600 PCI Express Capture Card
Windows 7 64-bit

[PuzZLeR]

I have the 600, but the USB version, so not sure if this helps.

Personally I have found the 600 a very good product - high detail/quality, but I have found Catalyst, like other accompanying capture software with other tools, rather buggy and don't use it.

I use Beyond TV for TV captures in MPEG-2 and VirtualDub for uncompressed, or DV, captures for the important VHS content. Both have been solid and reliable with the 600.

To use VirtualDub, you need to download the WDM drivers from ATI.

I do lack an MPEG-2 capture app that can capture higher than 6500kbps though. With Beyond TV I can't exceed this, and Catalyst's custom profiles actually produce lower quality, even at higher bitrates. Still trying to figure it out, so in the meantime I will revisit Catalyst and see if I can find a solution to your problem too.

And I will also ask this forum if anyone else knows of a good MPEG-2 capture app that both of us can try with the 600.

I can suggest however, if you still want to use Catalyst, to check your Video input - make sure it's a Composite feed, and maybe check the scheduling if it is activated and conflicting.

[jagabo]

It will be running nicely and then for about a second there will be "snow" and the normal sound that comes with it...

That is false macrovision detection. A "video stabilizer" might help. A TBC will definitely help.

[CamaroDMD]

That is false macrovision detection. A "video stabilizer" might help. A TBC will definitely help.

I don't really know what this means. I'm very new at this. Sorry.

[PuzZLeR]

Lack of a TBC or video stabilizer isn't the reason for the split files I believe. However, I should have mentioned it for the "snow".

But for the record:

Macrovision is a copy protection system that creates funky patterns that make copying impossible.

A video stablizer, which can be found as a composite black box for ~$20, and placed as a passthrough between VCR and PC, can correct this on many tapes, but likely won't be perfect.

A time base corrector (TBC) is a more expensive tool, also a passthrough, which will not only take care of this virtually 100% of the time (assuming it's a full-frame TBC like the AVTool AVT-8710), but will also give you nicer captures by taking care of "tape jitter" associated with analog formats such as VHS.

Macrovision is usually found on commercial tapes, but can be triggered from home recordings, such as with your recorded games.

[jagabo]

One of Macrovision's copy protection techniques is to create small errors in the video sync signals. TVs ignore these errors but VHS decks are designed to detect them and refuse to copy the video. Most capture devices also respond to the signals. ATI's capture cards respond by turning picture into snow and sound into static. False Macrovision detection is usually caused by a stretched or damaged tape, bad head alignment, a weak signal, etc. Oh, and ATI's cards are unusually susceptible to false Macrovision detection.

The problem with your segmented captures is either a setting in the program which automatically causes long recordings to be broken into (4 GB?) segments, or you're capturing to a FAT formatted drive which has a 4 GB file size limitation. The first case can probably be fixed by changing a setting in the program, the second by capturing to an NTFS partition.

[CamaroDMD]

Do you think a video stabilizer is the way to go or do I really need a TBC? Why would there be copy protection on a home taped VHS?

The problem with your segmented captures is either a setting in the program which automatically causes long recordings to be broken into (4 GB?) segments, or you're capturing to a FAT formatted drive which has a 4 GB file size limitation. The first case can probably be fixed by changing a setting in the program, the second by capturing to an NTFS partition.

It must be a setting issue, my hard drives are formatted as NTFS.

[CamaroDMD]

I use Beyond TV for TV captures in MPEG-2 and VirtualDub for uncompressed, or DV, captures for the important VHS content. Both have been solid and reliable with the 600.

To use VirtualDub, you need to download the WDM drivers from ATI.

I'm not really sure which program to use to be honest, I would prefer to reencode these into a format that won't use so much hard drive space. Can you suggest a format that wouldn't and maybe that would help me pick the correct program?

[jagabo]

MPEG 2 is really your best choice for interlaced video.

[CamaroDMD]

MPEG 2 is really your best choice for interlaced video.

Why is that?

[jagabo]

MPEG 2 handles interlaced video well. Players usually handle interlaced MPEG 2 properly because it's often used on DVD. MPEG 2 can be fully DVD compatible if you ever plan to put your video on DVD. At 8 to 9 Mb/s (1 hour per single layer DVD) MPEG 2 is pretty good quality for a VHS source. MPEG 2 decoders will be around for a long time (again because of its use on DVD).

[CamaroDMD]

MPEG 2 handles interlaced video well. Players usually handle interlaced MPEG 2 properly because it's often used on DVD. MPEG 2 can be fully DVD compatible if you ever plan to put your video on DVD. At 8 to 9 Mb/s (1 hour per single layer DVD) MPEG 2 is pretty good quality for a VHS source. MPEG 2 decoders will be around for a long time (again because of its use on DVD).

I'm just concerned about the file sizes. I have quite a few videos I want to transfer...I want to make DVDs but I would also like to keep digital backups.

[CamaroDMD]

One of Macrovision's copy protection techniques is to create small errors in the video sync signals. TVs ignore these errors but VHS decks are designed to detect them and refuse to copy the video. Most capture devices also respond to the signals. ATI's capture cards respond by turning picture into snow and sound into static. False Macrovision detection is usually caused by a stretched or damaged tape, bad head alignment, a weak signal, etc. Oh, and ATI's cards are unusually susceptible to false Macrovision detection.

Why would there be copy protection on home taped VHS tapes?

[jagabo]

Why would there be copy protection on home taped VHS tapes?

That's why it's called FALSE macrovision detection. Small timing errors on the tape are causing the capture device to think macrovision is present.

I'm just concerned about the file sizes. I have quite a few videos I want to transfer...I want to make DVDs but I would also like to keep digital backups.

If you need a more compact format h.264 is probably what you'll want to use. h.264 can look as good as MPEG 2 at half or even a quarter the bitrate. I would capture in a lossless format, perform any filtering, then save as MPEG 2 for DVD and h.264 for on-line storage. Some h.264 encoders and players don't handle interlaced video as well as progressive video.

You can also consider reducing the frame size to 352x480 instead of 720x480. That will allow you to reduce the file size by about half. The resolution of the analog video on a VHS tape is only about 352x480 anyway. So you aren't really losing much picture information.

Is there really a need for small files? You can get 2 GB drives for less than US$100 now. That will hold several hundred hours of high bitrate, DVD compliant, MPEG 2 files.

[PuzZLeR]

Revisiting the thread after running a few more tests.

Yes indeed, Jagabo has a point. Apparently Catalyst is assuming FAT32. The 600 came out at a time when XP was younger (and when capture cards were actually better than now, or before AMD took over ATI) so it was assumed some folks had an older O/S and/or ran on a FAT32. This limitation to just under 4GBs was to make sure your drive can handle it.

However, I've searched and there is no setting or update to disable this AFAIK. I wonder if ATI even cares or notices, or even supports Catalyst any more. The last product, the 750, came with a horrid third party app. Come to think of it, the 750 itself was horrid too (and a step backward IMO).

The good news is that other than a bit of a hassle, these segments are harmless to the overall video.

The cuts are clean and seamless from my tests - you will not lose a play or frame from this. Using an MPEG dedicated editor, such as TMPGEnc MPEG Editor, Womble or VideoReDo, the streams join perfectly without indication that they were cut from the few tests that I've done so far.

Since you probably want to edit VHS captures anyway, it shouldn't be an issue inserting all clips on one timeline.

[PuzZLeR]

By the way, I'm still curious if someone can recommend a good MPEG-2 capture app, obviously one that supports WDM drivers.

VirtualDub is fabulous for several formats, but not for MPEG-2.

BeyondTV is great for TV captures, but the settings for it are online, and have limitations.

I did manage to configure Catalyst to my liking - there is a text file called Profile.txt in the installation directory, which apparently is Law to the app. This is much better than using Custom profiles within the app which actually hurt quality.

I use uncompressed formats, or DV / Cineform, for the few very, very special tapes as archived digital Source. But for pretty much 80%-90% of the balance of my content, I too, like Jagabo, believe DvD/MPEG-2, at a bitrate of > 7500kbps, or even >8000kbps, is still excellent for VHS.

[CamaroDMD]

Why would there be copy protection on home taped VHS tapes?

That's why it's called FALSE macrovision detection. Small timing errors on the tape are causing the capture device to think macrovision is present.

I see, do you think a video stabilizer will help this or do you think I really need a TBC? I have looked around and the TBC's are quite expensive. I am currently in dental school and basically have no extra money...so a TBC is kind of out of the question at the moment, but I might be able to pick up a video stabilizer.

Revisiting the thread after running a few more tests.

Yes indeed, Jagabo has a point. Apparently Catalyst is assuming FAT32. The 600 came out at a time when XP was younger (and when capture cards were actually better than now, or before AMD took over ATI) so it was assumed some folks had an older O/S and/or ran on a FAT32. This limitation to just under 4GBs was to make sure your drive can handle it.

However, I've searched and there is no setting or update to disable this AFAIK. I wonder if ATI even cares or notices, or even supports Catalyst any more. The last product, the 750, came with a horrid third party app. Come to think of it, the 750 itself was horrid too (and a step backward IMO).

The good news is that other than a bit of a hassle, these segments are harmless to the overall video.

The cuts are clean and seamless from my tests - you will not lose a play or frame from this. Using an MPEG dedicated editor, such as TMPGEnc MPEG Editor, Womble or VideoReDo, the streams join perfectly without indication that they were cut from the few tests that I've done so far.

Since you probably want to edit VHS captures anyway, it shouldn't be an issue inserting all clips on one timeline.

Awesome information, thanks! That really explains a lot!!!

[PuzZLeR]

I see, do you think a video stabilizer will help this or do you think I really need a TBC? I have looked around and the TBC's are quite expensive. I am currently in dental school and basically have no extra money...so a TBC is kind of out of the question at the moment, but I might be able to pick up a video stabilizer.

Any type of higher education is expensive these days. Good luck.

I know a video stabilizer sounds apealing at $10-$30, and it will solve the problem on most tapes, but it's not perfect. And, depending on your player, it's composite only (yellow video RCA), so it won't be the ultimate solution.

Ok, what I'm about to say may cost someone $200 if they're following my advice, so I'm not saying it lightly.

If you want one suggestion that will be virtually 100% effective, and one TBC that will solve your problem, it's the AV Tool AVT-8710. Take note that, unlike other ones, this one is a full-frame TBC.

Yeah, it's roughly over $200, but how many tapes do you have? Many? It may be worth it to archive memories.

Another more expensive one is the DataVideo TBC-1000. But, IMO, it's overpriced. Just get the AV Tool.

But not only does a full frame TBC take care of any Macrovision, or false Macrovision, it takes care of that jitter usually associated with anaolog tape (such as VHS).

Not only does this give you better captures, but if you wish to use a lossy format like MPEG-2, DivX, Xvid, H.264, WMV, etc, what will happen is that you will get lower file sizes for the same quality, or higher quality for the same file sizes - if you reduce this jitter.

This jitter causes chaos on lossy formats. Movement in general creates a need for higher bitrates as well, but why add to it with that extra jitter? Reducing it only benefits.

If you're interested, you can pick one up at B&H, which is IMO the best price around.

If you don't have the funds now, it may be worth it to defer this project to a better date in the future. Hopefully I haven't depressed you, only enlighted you with this info.

[jagabo]

A TBC is the best solution. And what PuzZLeR says about reducing jitter is absolutely true. But if you want to try some other things before spending the money:

1) Try capturing the problematic parts again. Since this is false Macrovision you may get lucky this time and get a clean cap.

2) Try manually adjusting the tracking during those sections.

3) Try using a different VCR -- it may work better (or worse).

If you get clean caps from any of those you can edit them into your original. Number 3 is likely to give you very different looking video (brightness, contrast, and color tend to be different between different VCRs) so you'll probably want to capture the whole tape over again.

[PuzZLeR]

3) Try using a different VCR -- it may work better (or worse).

If you get clean caps from any of those you can edit them into your original. Number 3 is likely to give you very different looking video (brightness, contrast, and color tend to be different between different VCRs) so you'll probably want to capture the whole tape over again.

If recapturing the whole tape, and it corrects the problem, but problems surface in other parts (which has happened to me) I personally would still edit a "best of" among the segments (which would be easy with MPEG and an MPEG editor). Yes indeed, the video clips may look quite different from each other, but if joining whole scenes, instead of just joining frames, it is hardly, or much less, noticable in the final production.

At least with my eyes...

[orsetto]

do you think a video stabilizer will help this or do you think I really need a TBC? I have looked around and the TBC's are quite expensive. I am currently in dental school and basically have no extra money...so a TBC is kind of out of the question at the moment, but I might be able to pick up a video stabilizer.

I'm afraid a video stabilizer will only help with genuine copy protection on commercial tapes, it doesn't fix the false detection triggered by random glitches on home-recorded tapes. If you have many tapes with this issue, you'll probably need the AVT-8710 recommended by PuzZLeR and jagabo. The trouble with PC capture is the damn cards absolutely hate VHS input and will usually cough up these stupid false detection and other symptoms unless you invest in a modern accessory TBC.

Depending on just how "twitchy" your capture card is, you can sometimes get away with using an old semi-pro VCR with built-in TBC. This type of TBC is not as good as the expensive external units, but has the advantage of tapping directly into the VCR video heads for the purpose of correcting just this sort of VHS output glitch at low cost. The cheapest such VCR is the Panasonic AG1970: there are scads of these available used, often under $50, and its a remarkably good budget VCR (it originally cost over $1000 and is built ruggedly). The trick with these is to avoid shipping hassles and cost: they weigh about 25 lbs packed up, which can cost a lot of postage and risks handling damage. Check out your local Craig's List for one you can go pick up in person, or check eBay listings for one that might be near enough for you to pick up. If it doesn't solve your issues you can always resell it for what you paid, as long as you pay $50 or less.