Getting started, I need to learn EVERYTHING

[hadoq]

Hi, so here I am, seriously considering about starting to make videos. The only problem is, I don't know ANYTHING

I did some editing in college, about 10 or so years ago and that's about it. I do watch a lot of movies, TV series and what not since a while back. artistically, I know exactly where I want to go and probably how to get there (with hard work that is) but technically I'm lost.

I've never been further than recording a few seconds with my wife's camera (mine's a DSLR so no filming for me) and editing on some random soft I got off the internet.

So now I want to make things the right way

What I want to film ?

well, there are a few examples of what I'll try to head for, on the long run, that is
I'm aware of the fact that such videos require some experience as well as some at least half decent equipment which I probably can't afford right now

here's one with cars
http://vimeo.com/3203121


here's another one with yoyoing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJLPIokQ1pY


So what I think I'll need to do stuff like this, is probably some equipment I can't afford and whatnot. What I want is something affordable that'll get my ball rolling, so I can learn the basics and, with hard work, I could still achieve something not that bad.

so this is what I'm after

Recorder:
- wide angle option

Editing program
- easy to work with (I'm used to music editing stuff like cubase or pro-tools), something that'll allow me to alter the picture, play with the colors etc... much like photoshop or photoshop lightroom, only for vids
- something that'll work with my computer

here's some of my computer features
AMD Phenom II quad core proc
8GB Kingston DDR3 Ram
enough HD capacity, none slower than 7200rpm
Win7 64bits



I first thought of going for these new DSLR that feature video recording so I could use my DSLR lenses to have a wide range of angles, from full 300mm zoom to fisheye type wide angle. So this gives you an idea of what I could spend on a recorder.



So please, if you could enlighten me on what I need to start, that would be nice.

oh and I don't mind buying used equipment as long as it's in good condition, basically, I need something that can record video with a decent quality (for internet/youtube, not the festival de Cannes), good ergonomy and wide angle possibilities.

and an idea on what editing software would fit me the most.

if you want an idea of my visual "identity", you can check the photos below

so rather colorful, I'm not the kind of guy that goes for "100% natural" feel, I like to play around with colors, light and shadows.


Also, is there some cheap/budget lighting solution to get started ?

thanks for reading

[hadoq]

anyone ? I tried to be very precise and specific as to what I want to do, this should make your replies easier right?

[filmboss80]

Well, very few of us have the time to write a long dissertation to help you get your head straight on what you need to do, within the confines of your current system capabilities, your own skill level, and your specific goals--especially when we don't know your budget range.

As a newb, you first need to go to the newsstand and pick up a copy of Videomaker, which is a decent rag for helping video hobbyists up their game. It also has links to website tutorials and guide books. (Whenever I run a video workshop, I always direct my students toward this publication.)

Adobe Premiere Elements seems to be a decent piece of "prosumer" video editing software. Sony Vegas is also an editor that has different versions depending on your skill level and needs.

Your camera will be an issue. There are lots being offered out there that shoot to HD codecs that are not real edit-friendly. You really, really need to educate yourself in this area, because it will affect your choices of computer hardware and editing software. DSLRs are going to spin your head--and potentially drain your wallet--in terms of trying to edit the footage. (They also limit your microphone and sound recording options.)

You got a lot to learn. Your college editing course will be of little use now because the technology has changed so much.

[guns1inger]

There is simply too much to learn to realistically expect you can just sit down, read a few links, and then you will be set.

Best bet, work out what your specific issues are, and find the answers to those issues. If your first problem is what camera, then concentrate on that. Once you start shooting and editing, you will find new questions to ask. Build up your knowledge incrementally.

There is nothing in your example videos that requires special lenses or cameras. It is all done in the planning and in post. Certainly nothing there that can't be done in Vegas and After Effects, and maybe even cheaper if you keep it realistic in the beginning.

But by far the best way to learn is to do. You don't have to know it all to get started, just how to point the camera and press record.

[PuzZLeR]

Video is complex and vast. Trying to take in all facets of it at once will be overwhelming.

The only way I've learned anything is by one endeavor at a time, as the project would surface. When I have an objective, such as wanting to convert VHS->DvD, get a good capture card for TV, encode to blu-ray, edit MPEG-4, want a camera to do this, etc, whatever I fancy at the moment, I read anything, and everything, I could search on it - including asking and participating in Forums such as this one and also do testing of my own till I get it right. Each process could take weeks, maybe months, or more, so you have to also be patient.

But, like I said, I've only learned what I know in my humble knowledge base one task at a time.

[RabidDog]

Evening classes.

[budwzr]

Buy a Flip, a digicam, and Sony Vegas Movie Studio. Then go out and shoot and see what you can do with it. Shoot a documentary about the local library, do interviews, take stills, shoot footage, and titling and credits, make cuts, correct color.

Don't spend real money until you get some experience, the workflow is the same for el cheapo and high end. Start with el cheapo.

[edDV]

Buy a Flip, a digicam, and Sony Vegas Movie Studio. Then go out and shoot and see what you can do with it. Shoot a documentary about the local library, do interviews, take stills, shoot footage, and titling and credits, make cuts, correct color.

Don't spend real money until you get some experience, the workflow is the same for el cheapo and high end. Start with el cheapo.

I agree. For special events you can rent or borrow the high end equipment.

[hadoq]

Ok, thanks alot for the rather extensive replies ^^

I'll try and get my hands on vegas as I've heard of it already.

Anyway, down to the recorder, I thought I gave away the money I wanted to spend saying I was going to buy a DSLR with vid capabilities (which are roughly 500-1k for the 1st prices)

but as I also need wide angle, I'm aware that this particular point could be an issue when it comes to the material.

anyway, so what should I look for when buying a camcorder ? as I understand, not all use edit-friendly formats right ? so which ones do fit my needs in the 300-1k budget range ?

can't I just copy the vid from the SD card to the computer and be done with it ? I have a hard time understanding why I need a capture card, but then again, I need to learn everything.

[edDV]

As a general rule,

Easiest to deal with and learn with is SD MinDV tape format.
Next easiest SD MPeg2

For HD, easiest is HDV 1080i tape format (e.g. Canon HV 20/30/40)

More difficult are the h.264 based AVCHD 720p formats.
More difficult than 720p are the h.264 based AVCHD 1080i formats.
More difficult than 1080i are the h.264 based AVCHD 1080p formats.

The most difficult are the non-standard h.264 digial camera formats.
Of course most newbs start here, get frustrated and quit.

[hadoq]

More difficult are the h.264 based AVCHD 720p formats.

this seems to come back alot amongst current models, by "more difficult", what do you mean exactly ? what kind of problems would I encounter if I get a cam on this format along with, let's say, vegas ?

what else would I need in order to make this work ?


also, what are the options for wide angle ? are there some lenses that can be screwed onto a regular cam's lens like we can see in photography ? I'm aware that this is not the best option but right now, I couldn't afford a camcorder that does wide angle "out of the box", unless, of course, I get a DSLR with video capabilities (which I'm ok with, so far)

[DB83]

You seem rather hell-bent on the DSLR option just because it can accomodate a wide angle lens.

I would suggest you go to a store that will allow you to use such a camera for atleast ten minutes no stopping and then see just how steady your movie footage is. You may be shocked.

[hadoq]

I am, actually, but not by choice. my plan is to film on a tripod/stand anyways, fixed scenes for the most part, so I should not have a "shaking footage" issue here.

[filmboss80]

Here's the thing you don't seem to get about DSLRs: they shoot a video format that is so highly compressed that unless you devote lots more money to more powerful hardware and software solutions, your computer is going to choke big time when you try to edit the footage. (I don't know how many times and how many ways we need to tell you this.)

This article from http://www.internetvideomag.com/articles_2010/011310_EditingDSLRvideo.htm may explain it a little bit better for you:

"The problem with DSLR video is file compression. The most popular cameras out there use web-friendly formats. For shooting and sharing, this would be great, but web-friendly isn't always edit-friendly. Canon's 5D Mark II, 7D, 1D Mark IV, and Rebel T1i use QuickTime H.264 compression....Used within most nonlinear editing systems, these files are all terrible."

That's not even to mention all the sound recording limitations you're going to have with DSLR.

[hadoq]

alright, while I appreciate the replies, it seems like you guys are quick to point out the problems while no one is actually pointing out to a solution.

I guess this is too big of a forum to end up with friendly and really usefull replies when you're a noob and one is supposed to know everything from scratch.

filmboss -> you noticed the poster above my post does not mention the format but the fact that it'll shake when hand held

sound recording, I don't really care as I have home studio grade microphones and editing systems


now you notice a poster above said it was actually *difficult* to work with such formats. For me "difficult" is not and never has been a deal breaker, "impossible" is, "difficult" to me means "possible with some additional work" and I don't really care about additional work.

[guns1inger]

Solutions have been pointed, just not ones that you apparently want to hear. Magazines for further reading have been suggested, software programs to get started with, going out and just doing to get a feel for it, suggestions for cameras. What more do you want ? Yes, you hopes of doing this all with a DSLR have perhaps been dashed. So what. If you want to shoot video properly, get a video camera. If you want quality stills, get a good still camera. If you can't afford both, be patient. The number of people who rush out and buy a camera, then find that they can't edit the footage without a lot of mucking around, re-encoding, quality loss etc. could fill a forum on it's own.

There is no simple answer to your question. There is no single post that we can point you to that will give you all you need to know in 10 minutes. It just doesn't work that way.

[poisondeathray]

IMO, the difficulty in editing DSLR footage isn't the worst problem. You can get over that hump pretty easily with decent software and hardware. There are also many workarounds like transcoding to prores or cineform

The biggest problem is the aliasing and moire. This many shots unusable. IMO a camera shouldn't impose a limitiation your creativity - but these do.

Canon DSLR's (5D , 7D , T2i ) are very prone to this. GH1/2 are less prone. The current crop of DSLR's lack a decent OLPF for video. What happens is the large sensor is sampled for video (either line skipping or pixel binning) such that you have a 1920x1080 image. It's not resized in a quality fashion, like you would do in photoshop, lines and pixels are missing! The fact is the processing isn't fast enough to take full images at 24fps or 30fps (and there are already problems with overheating, so it will be impossible to get decent performance in such a form factor). Just think when you take still photos, your max burst is ~3-6fps on most cameras ,correct ? (Otherwise you would have essentially a red one or red epic). So what you end up with footage full of jaggies and very prone to color moire.

You need many, many hours getting used to what conditions you can or cannot shoot in. If you ever shoot people with striped shirts, picket fences, brick walls, roof tiles - it will pop up unexpectedly. There are other tips like defocusing, but they are band aid attempts at a solution. Have a look at various DLSR video oriented forums. Have a look on youtube. This is the #1 problem by far.

This is just a friendly warning to do some research before you dive in with a lot of cash/euros

[DB83]

This topic reminds me of a wonderful sequence from the movie 'Amadeus'. The enthusiastic Mozart asks the Emperor what he thinks of his latest work. The Emperor in turn asks Salieri who pertently answers "Too many notes"

And for the topic read "Too many questions" and as with Mozart the answer given was not the one he was expecting or even wanted.

Even if you have no knowledge, you can not expect to learn EVERYTHING simply by asking a few questions in one forum topic. Very few of us know EVERYTHING so sub-forums exist where questions relevant to specific questions can be put and those with the knowledge and experience of that particular field can respond.

[filmboss80]

I guess this is too big of a forum to end up with friendly and really usefull replies when you're a noob and one is supposed to know everything from scratch.

A lot of us have taken a lot of time and effort in trying to explain things to you. We are trying to save you loads of expense and headaches. Was that not friendly and useful?

When we talked about the DSLR's compression codec being "difficult" to edit, we were not talking about the skill level of the person editing. We were talking about the CPU power and software to handle it. Highly compressed video codecs with long GOPs (Groups of Pictures, as opposed to individual, accessible frames) will choke most home computer systems. You are looking at further expenditures, pal, and we are trying to help you achieve your goals without making decisions that will be too costly for you. Yes, it is doable with DSLRs, but it takes a huge, unnecessary bite out of your wallet, and there are more efficient alternatives.

Instead of accepting sound advice, you dismiss our words because we didn't tell you what you wanted to hear. So go ahead and do things your way. Don't say you weren't forewarned.

[classfour]

I use a JVC or Toshiba for shooting - why? workable format.

[hadoq]

I guess this is too big of a forum to end up with friendly and really usefull replies when you're a noob and one is supposed to know everything from scratch.

A lot of us have taken a lot of time and effort in trying to explain things to you. We are trying to save you loads of expense and headaches. Was that not friendly and useful?

When we talked about the DSLR's compression codec being "difficult" to edit, we were not talking about the skill level of the person editing. We were talking about the CPU power and software to handle it. Highly compressed video codecs with long GOPs (Groups of Pictures, as opposed to individual, accessible frames) will choke most home computer systems. You are looking at further expenditures, pal, and we are trying to help you achieve your goals without making decisions that will be too costly for you. Yes, it is doable with DSLRs, but it takes a huge, unnecessary bite out of your wallet, and there are more efficient alternatives.

Instead of accepting sound advice, you dismiss our words because we didn't tell you what you wanted to hear. So go ahead and do things your way. Don't say you weren't forewarned.

you're not fair here, then the "difficult" part was not explained properly, how could I imagine that was related to cpu power as I detailed my setup in the 1st post and there was absolutely no reference to it ?

anyway, I kinda solved the problem as I'm having the opportunity of buying hi end analogue equipment from a company, I'd rather get through the hassle of capturing than buying some more recent stuff and having to give up creative possibilities.

thanks for your help

[lordsmurf]

You're the kind of person I like to help, but I just don't have it in me at the moment.
Too busy for free advice.
But wanted to at least wish you well.

[DB83]

Well I for one would like to know what you regard as 'hi end analogue'

But again, you seem prepared to throw money at something - if it really is hi end - that may well be beyond you.

And the only thing I see from all of this is you desire to have a wide-angle capability when the solution was posted at #7. But then a lens add-on as opposed to a lens may not reach your standards.

[edDV]

anyway, I kinda solved the problem as I'm having the opportunity of buying hi end analogue equipment from a company, I'd rather get through the hassle of capturing than buying some more recent stuff and having to give up creative possibilities.

thanks for your help

What do you mean by "hi end analogue equipment". Unlikely you will be able to handle it.

I've re-read this thread and still am not clear of your budget limits, publishing goals or willingness to deal with difficult technical issues. Most of the sample footage can be done with a simple camcorder with wide lens adapter. If you need to go into near macro modes, a DSLR works for lens flexibility but will be more expensive and more technically difficult to handle in editing.

I'll just have to assume you aren't willing to learn then do, so get something cheap (like a used HV20 and Vegas Movie Studio Platinum 9 or10), go shoot some video, then come back and ask for help solving particular problems.

I like the HV20 because it is the least expensive "prosumer" camcorder that contains all the essential "pro" features for exposure and audio. It serves as a stand-in for more expensive pro camcorders allowing you to learn the essentials without spending over $2000. If you have a special shoot, you can rent a higher end camera and know how to use it.

If you insist on a DSLR you have two choices. Spend up for a quailty video capable model (don't forget all the needed acessories) or learn with a consumer model while tolerating inferior video/audio quality.

Your most important "accessories" will be a solid tripod, a wireless microphone, a good reflector and a lighting kit. These will have more impact on the "quality" of your video than spending an extra $1000 on the camera.

[edDV]

sound recording, I don't really care as I have home studio grade microphones and editing systems

Does this mean there will be no field audio recording? Just studio sound?

[hadoq]

As a general rule,

Easiest to deal with and learn with is SD MinDV tape format.
Next easiest SD MPeg2

For HD, easiest is HDV 1080i tape format (e.g. Canon HV 20/30/40)

More difficult are the h.264 based AVCHD 720p formats.
More difficult than 720p are the h.264 based AVCHD 1080i formats.
More difficult than 1080i are the h.264 based AVCHD 1080p formats.

The most difficult are the non-standard h.264 digial camera formats.
Of course most newbs start here, get frustrated and quit.

Ended up buying a Canon Legria HFM306, never had any problem at all working with the format, works a charm in Premiere, but again, I got the PC to deal with it (Fast HDDs, 8GB DDR, Quad Core, everything branded/quality)

[edDV]

As a general rule,

Easiest to deal with and learn with is SD MinDV tape format.
Next easiest SD MPeg2

For HD, easiest is HDV 1080i tape format (e.g. Canon HV 20/30/40)

More difficult are the h.264 based AVCHD 720p formats.
More difficult than 720p are the h.264 based AVCHD 1080i formats.
More difficult than 1080i are the h.264 based AVCHD 1080p formats.

The most difficult are the non-standard h.264 digial camera formats.
Of course most newbs start here, get frustrated and quit.

Ended up buying a Canon Legria HFM306, never had any problem at all working with the format, works a charm in Premiere, but again, I got the PC to deal with it (Fast HDDs, 8GB DDR, Quad Core, everything branded/quality)

Are you doing anything other than cutting it? How are those effects render speeds?

[hadoq]

I'm doing alright, thank you for asking. I'm no Georges Lucas either, just doing some yoyo videos.

As for now I use color and level correction mostly, as well as transition or inserts (2 videos or 3 on the same screen)

doing well enough not to justify the extra 1k euros I would have had to spend just to get another format supposedly "easier" to deal with

difficult = possible

But I think my PC setup does help a lot

anyway, I'm happy, now I can finally start to practice and film

are there any software out there for storyboards ?