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  1. VH Wanderer Ai Haibara's Avatar
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    Are there ways to actually boost the signal received by an antenna, or boost the antenna's receiving power, etc.? (Commercial product, or even old 'remedies' like covering the antennas in foil. :P) I've played musical antennas for a while, and I don't want to try buying yet another indoor antenna just to end up receiving only ONE additional channel (maybe).

    I can't really install an outdoor antenna at this time, but there's an old question I'll bring up, again - as we do have DirecTV, if I connect my HDTV's antenna line to the wall antenna jack, can I use the dish mounted to the roof as an antenna, or will that run the risk of damaging something? (No, this is NOT any sort of attempt to access the DirecTV feed without the box. I'm just curious (and tired of buying 'better' antennas... ))
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  2. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Ai Haibara View Post
    Are there ways to actually boost the signal received by an antenna, or boost the antenna's receiving power, etc.? (Commercial product, or even old 'remedies' like covering the antennas in foil. :P) I've played musical antennas for a while, and I don't want to try buying yet another indoor antenna just to end up receiving only ONE additional channel (maybe).

    I can't really install an outdoor antenna at this time, but there's an old question I'll bring up, again - as we do have DirecTV, if I connect my HDTV's antenna line to the wall antenna jack, can I use the dish mounted to the roof as an antenna, or will that run the risk of damaging something? (No, this is NOT any sort of attempt to access the DirecTV feed without the box. I'm just curious (and tired of buying 'better' antennas... ))
    Over the air digital television reception is all location dependent vs. the transmitting antenna from the broadcaster.

    Antenna solutions depend on distance to the transmitter, obstructions and number of channels you are targeting.

    Start by identifying your country and your estimated distance to the transmitter. If you want to receive multiple stations, how do they differ by direction to the transmitter?

    A DirecTV antenna is useless for over the air broadcast reception. Frequencies are wrong and it is pointed to the sky no? Not a broadcast tower.

    "DirecTV" indicates you are probably in the USA. Enter your address into antennaweb.org to find the distance and direction to your local broadcast transmitters. That information will indicate the antenna you require.
    Last edited by edDV; 27th Dec 2010 at 00:54.
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  3. VH Wanderer Ai Haibara's Avatar
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    I've done that a number of times in the past (checked the antenna sites). All they tell me, basically, is that I really, really need a roof-mounted antenna.
    (Mostly, that no other indoor antenna is really going to improve my reception much, at all.)

    Yeah, I'm in the USA. Northern California (I think I asked you something about Channel 3 or 13 (Sacramento), a while back...), actually.
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  4. Mod Neophyte Super Moderator redwudz's Avatar
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    You might get something off the Direct TV dish if it has a local antenna added on the dish. But I doubt it. For one thing, it's probably pointed the wrong way and tilted up too much. I would recommend a long boom Yagi if you have a specific direction to point. Or a flat panel if you need a wider angle.

    I have my HDTV antenna mounted in the attic, along with a RF amplifier. One reason is to boost the signal a bit because it goes to a passive splitter downstairs that feeds six outlets in the house. If you decide to use a amplifier, make sure it's good for UHF as that's the band where HDTV is located, same with the antenna. You also need a 300 ohm to 75 ohm transformer for your coax and amplifier. I mounted it on the antenna then a short run of coax to the amp. Use good quality RG-6 coax also. The quad shielded is good for the longer runs.

    HDTV uses fairly powerful transmitters, so signal strength isn't as big a problem as it was with analog. Some local stations here put out about 150 Megawatts, so I can also pick up most with a set of rabbit ears. But I can get some other stations about 50 miles away with the amp and pointing the antenna the right direction. I use a Radio Shack UHF Yagi and it works fine, about a 5 foot boom.

    With my system, I also cap any unused outputs with a 75 ohm termination resistor at the outlet. It keeps down noise from reflections in the line. HDTV, being UHF, is line of sight. If you can't see the transmitting antenna, you usually can't pick up the station. If you're behind a hill, good luck. More antenna height may help. I use Antenna Web for site info and signal strengths and it's been very accurate. I get about 28 channels OTA. That all goes to a HDHomerun receiver, then out to my PCs over the LAN. I don't have a real TV.

    Most of the indoor antennas are just cheap crap, including the Terk, IMO. I've gotten better signal strength with a pair of $1 rabbit ears. If you can do it, go for a attic antenna. The higher mounted, the better. I was getting a decent signal for 25 channels with just the coax hanging down the wall, unplugged at the other end.
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  5. VH Wanderer Ai Haibara's Avatar
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    I'd consider mounting a roof antenna (this is for the TV in my bedroom, though), if only the next-door neighbor's house and trees weren't tall enough to block everything. (It's also about ten feet away, roughly.) Maybe if I installed one of those giant antenna towers in the backyard, at this rate... :P
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  6. Mod Neophyte Super Moderator redwudz's Avatar
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    I'm limited by my subdivision rules. A 30' - 50' crank up tower would be great. But no way. Maybe a flagpole with a Yagi and a rotator on top? They're a bit more flexible with flagpole installation. But probably not. If you toured around SoCal years ago, you would have seen a lot of UHF antennas up fifteen or so feet above the roof. That sort of died out when cable became more available.

    Try Antenna Web or similar and set it for the second story info and that might tell you a little if a bit more altitude will help. But if you have large trees in the line of site, not much may help but a midnight chainsaw raid.
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    Whether or not HDTV is UHF depends on location. VHF is also used in some areas. (I happen to have both UHF and VHF stations.) The only way to know for sure is to check the frequency at tvfool.com or antennaweb.org. (I prefer tvfool.)

    Are these channels visible but breaking up? If so, have you tried an amplifier? I found some good recommendations here http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1037779

    I used the least expensive one from http://www.kitztech.com/ with an unamplified indoor antenna and it worked quite well for channels that were not strong enough for a stable picture, although I didn't get any new ones that I could not receive at all without the amplifier. It broke after 2 days, but kitztech honored their 10-day money back guarantee and returned my payment. I didn't order a replacement because I wasn't sure if it was infant death or something about what I was doing.

    This is another one recommended by Escape Velocity: http://www.amazon.com/Motorola-Booster-484095-001-00-Bi-Directional-Amplifier/dp/acces...ies/B000066E6Y

    I haven't tried it yet, but probably will. I need something for cable too, so if it doesn't work out for antenna, I have another place to use it.
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  8. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Ai Haibara View Post
    I've done that a number of times in the past (checked the antenna sites). All they tell me, basically, is that I really, really need a roof-mounted antenna.
    (Mostly, that no other indoor antenna is really going to improve my reception much, at all.)

    Yeah, I'm in the USA. Northern California (I think I asked you something about Channel 3 or 13 (Sacramento), a while back...), actually.
    So how far and what direction to the Walnut Grove towers? Or Sutro? What is your zip code?

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    This market is split VHF and UHF so you need two separate antenna strategies.

    VHF - Walnut Grove

    Ch Station
    --- ---------------------------
    09 KVIE PBS (virtual 6)
    10 KXTV ABC (virtual 10)


    UHF - Walnut Grove

    Ch Station
    --- ---------------------------
    18 KUVS Uni (virtual 19)
    21 KMAX CW (virtual 31)
    25 KOVR CBS (virtual 13)
    35 KCRA NBC (virtual 3)
    40 KTXL FOX (virtual 40)
    46 KQCA My (virtual 58)

    ION, Teleflora and others have towers in the foothills.

    Distant locations may have local translators. These will show up on antennaweb or rabitears queries.
    Last edited by edDV; 27th Dec 2010 at 14:20.
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  9. First, you can modify your original thought and connect your Antenna to the Antenna In jack on the HDTV box. This may, or may not, improve reception. Single remote for all channels.

    I've tried the Terk, Amplified Terk, Zenith Silver Sensor, older amplified rabbit ears, and unamplified rabbit ears. Three different homes, all in the same general location, six different rooms over the last three years. The two Terks and the Zenith are very close, with the amplified Terk being the ONLY one to solidly receive all 8 available stations in all locations. The channel locator on my Hauppage board ran in about 15 minutes, other antennas ran for hours or never finished. TV and converter box tuners were far less sensitive.

    You will have to spend some time orientating the antenna to receive all channels, they are EXTREMELY SENSITIVE to placement issues. My Terk got moved about 2 inches to one side, causing one channel to pause frequently and another to fail altogether. Extreme weather will also interfere with signal. My Microwave and some other appliances interfere, as well.
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  10. Originally Posted by Ai Haibara View Post
    I've done that a number of times in the past (checked the antenna sites). All they tell me, basically, is that I really, really need a roof-mounted antenna.
    (Mostly, that no other indoor antenna is really going to improve my reception much, at all.)

    Yeah, I'm in the USA. Northern California (I think I asked you something about Channel 3 or 13 (Sacramento), a while back...), actually.
    I also live in Sacramento, I'm able to get 3 and 13 with an indoor antenna but I also use an amplifier for UHF. If you use an outdoor antenna you should point it toward Walnut Grove(near Galt).

    Here's the amplifier I use:
    http://www.amazon.com/LABS-6001-Prograde-Bi-Directional-Amplifier/dp/B000BLEMHU/ref=sr...3477073&sr=8-1
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  11. VH Wanderer Ai Haibara's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by redwudz View Post
    But if you have large trees in the line of site, not much may help but a midnight chainsaw raid.
    It's more building than tree, I'm afraid. And since our houses aren't that far apart, I wouldn't be at all surprised if that caused a significant signal degradation, too.

    usually_quiet: So, you're guessing that most amplifiers are just going to boost the signals I'm already receiving? I could probably use one, then - I get an average of 17 channels, on most scans, but over half of them glitch out at odd times. Some even disappear (such as channel 10, the ABC affiliate from Sacramento, so you'd think their signal would be strong...)

    edDV: I'm not sure how far I am from Walnut Grove, offhand. I'm in 95620. I think that at the time I'd been asking you about it, you were recommending tvfool, so that's what I originally used. It basically stated most of the 'normal' channels I received (like the main networks) were all basically originating in a SE (not exact) direction from my point, so that's the direction I try to start with. It'd just be nice if my TV had a signal strength meter, like the converter boxes, so repositioning/turning the antenna would be less of a chore.

    Nelson37: I know I can get a bit more signal strength if I connect the antenna directly to my HDTV's antenna jack - but I also have it split off to a converter box so I can continue to record with my VCR.
    As for spending a lot of time orienting the antenna - Oh, definitely, I know the fun of trying to find that exact spot where the antenna will pick up one particular channel the best... and then having to move it back, trying to find a different spot, to watch another channel.

    MOVIEGEEK: Yeah, I'll probably need an amplifier, I guess. And, one of these times, I'm going to have to figure out exactly how close the neighbor's house is... that probably has something to do with the problem, too.
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    Originally Posted by Ai Haibara View Post
    usually_quiet: So, you're guessing that most amplifiers are just going to boost the signals I'm already receiving? I could probably use one, then - I get an average of 17 channels, on most scans, but over half of them glitch out at odd times. Some even disappear (such as channel 10, the ABC affiliate from Sacramento, so you'd think their signal would be strong...)
    Yes, that was my experience. There was one channel originating from a distant station that I can watch on the opposite side of the building when the weather is clear, but which I can't tune at all in the bedroom where I installed the amplifier. I still couldn't get that channel, but anything for which I could get even a very unstable picture was pretty clear after amplification. However, with antennas you never know for sure what is going to happen until you try.

    There are a few stations that are so close I can tune them perfectly with just 6 feet of coax cable dangling from the converter box. I was afraid I might loose those if I used an amplifier (it is possible to over-amplify), but they were still fine.
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  13. Member edDV's Avatar
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    You are only 19 miles from the Walnut Grove towers. Direction is SE. You should have a strong signal there but Dixon-Fairfield are notorious for ground fog in winter months which attenuates TV signals. If the next door building is blocking your line of sight to that direction, you need height not a huge antenna. Here is your approximate TVFool plot (center is your 95620 post office).

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    As I said above, KXTV (ABC) and KVIE (PBS) are on VHF so a UHF antenna won't see them. You need an antenna that covers both bands.

    I doubt in your situation that an amplifier will work well. You are in a strong signal area and receiving bounced multi-path signals not the more reliable direct beam. Amplifiers just allow more multi-path interference. Instead, you need to raise the antenna until it can receive the direct beam.

    In summer months you have a good shot to receive San Francisco stations to the southwest if you have a clear local view. Still 1Edge means there is a hill blocking in that direction but signals bend over hills to some extent. See an example here for KGO-TV 7 on the Sutro tower.

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    This plot has your post office on the right edge of the graph. All Walnut Grove plots show no hills, just a clear path.
    Last edited by edDV; 27th Dec 2010 at 21:13.
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  14. VH Wanderer Ai Haibara's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by edDV View Post
    You should have a strong signal there but Dixon-Fairfield are notorious for ground fog in winter months which attenuates TV signals.
    Hmm... we did have about two to three days' worth of dense fog, a handful of days ago. I don't remember whether or not my reception suffered at the time, though.

    If the next door building is blocking your line of sight to that direction, you need height not a huge antenna.
    Ah, but I was thinking along the lines of those broadcast towers the networks use. You know, the type that would most likely be extremely tall, but also much, much wider than our entire yard, front and back. And, well, I won't get into the power requirements.

    Here is your approximate TVFool plot (center is your 95620 post office).

    (image snipped)

    As I said above, KXTV (ABC) and KVIE (PBS) are on VHF so a UHF antenna won't see them. You need an antenna that covers both bands.
    My (powered, for what it's worth) antenna does handle both VHF and UHF... or at least, it claimed to, and has the extending rod antennas. I do get the channels if I shift the antenna - but, of course, I don't want to lose the other channels. (If only my TV had a signal strength meter, and/or allowed me to 'tune' to stations not detected during the channel scan...)

    I doubt in your situation that an amplifier will work well. You are in a strong signal area and receiving bounced multi-path signals not the more reliable direct beam. Amplifiers just allow more multi-path interference. Instead, you need to raise the antenna until it can receive the direct beam.

    In summer months you have a good shot to receive San Francisco stations to the southwest if you have a clear local view. Still 1Edge means there is a hill blocking in that direction but signals bend over hills to some extent. See an example here for KGO-TV 7 on the Sutro tower.
    I was afraid of that (that I was most likely receiving signals that have been bounced one or more times, such as between the two houses). As for the San Francisco stations... possibly. I've received 2, 4, 20 and 44 on odd occasions, most of them late on the weekends and usually in the summer. Out of those, channel 4 is the only one I'd really had to turn the antenna to a different direction, though.
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  15. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Ai Haibara View Post

    If the next door building is blocking your line of sight to that direction, you need height not a huge antenna.
    Ah, but I was thinking along the lines of those broadcast towers the networks use. You know, the type that would most likely be extremely tall, but also much, much wider than our entire yard, front and back. And, well, I won't get into the power requirements.
    You need to isolate multi-path and find the direct signal from the towers. The two ways around that are use a directional antenna pointed to the towers and find a hole in the blockage (house next door). Best way to do that is to elevate the antenna. You are fortunate that all the desired stations are coming from one direction.

    Multi-path reflections vary with temperature and weather so will come and go.


    Originally Posted by Ai Haibara View Post
    Here is your approximate TVFool plot (center is your 95620 post office).

    (image snipped)

    As I said above, KXTV (ABC) and KVIE (PBS) are on VHF so a UHF antenna won't see them. You need an antenna that covers both bands.
    My (powered, for what it's worth) antenna does handle both VHF and UHF... or at least, it claimed to, and has the extending rod antennas. I do get the channels if I shift the antenna - but, of course, I don't want to lose the other channels. (If only my TV had a signal strength meter, and/or allowed me to 'tune' to stations not detected during the channel scan...)
    If you can find the direct beam, all stations will be solid.

    Multipath strength also varies by channel frequency so you need to keep aiming the antenna as conditions change during the day or when changing channels.
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    Originally Posted by Ai Haibara View Post
    as we do have DirecTV, if I connect my HDTV's antenna line to the wall antenna jack, can I use the dish mounted to the roof as an antenna, or will that run the risk of damaging something?
    It won't work - a satellite dish is highly directional, and will be pointing in the wrong direction. Also the frequency range is different. Doing the inverse (plugging a satellite receiver into a terrestrial TV aerial) might short out and damage the receiver, as it sends power along the coax to operate the LNB.

    A directional aerial is important for avoiding unwanted signals.

    What cabling do you use to get the signal to your TV? Some homes have poor cabling/distribution - a split in an aerial lead to feed two TVs could result in an impedance mismatch and cause reflections, which can give significant problems.
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  17. VH Wanderer Ai Haibara's Avatar
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    Still 'recovering' from holiday 'fun.' Bleah. (Or, at least that's what I'm telling the family and relatives. :P)

    Originally Posted by intracube View Post
    It won't work - a satellite dish is highly directional, and will be pointing in the wrong direction. Also the frequency range is different. Doing the inverse (plugging a satellite receiver into a terrestrial TV aerial) might short out and damage the receiver, as it sends power along the coax to operate the LNB.
    Yeah, I figured it wouldn't work and would more than likely potentially be damaging in one way or another, but I was still mildly curious as to whether or not the dish could be used - not necessarily as a directional antenna, but as more of a general antenna (as though it were basically a rod antenna ).

    What cabling do you use to get the signal to your TV? Some homes have poor cabling/distribution - a split in an aerial lead to feed two TVs could result in an impedance mismatch and cause reflections, which can give significant problems.
    I just use regular coax cables, connected to my antenna. Right now, I've got one line leading from the antenna, to a splitter that connects to both the HDTV and a converter box (for my VCR).

    Something bizarre - I was experimenting this weekend, and removed the splitter to first connect the antenna line directly to the TV, then tried a supposedly better splitter (though it was a Monster splitter a family member gave me some years ago, so no real guarantees as to the quality ) to see how the signal strength would turn out both times; it seemed to be roughly the same. However, after I'd put the original splitter back and had all the cables connected as they were, before... I appear to have lost a channel.

    I seem to no longer be able to pick up Channel 31.1 (Sacramento), for some reason. It doesn't even register with the converter box's signal strength meter, no matter what direction I turn the antenna.
    My usual set of channels that I get with the antenna is usually the following: 3.1, 3.2, 6.1-6.3, 10.1, 10.2, 13.1, 29.1-29.3, 31.1, 40.1, 40.2, 58.1, 58.2. The TV we have in the office downstairs (directly underneath my bedroom!), which is also only connected to an antenna, IS currently receiving 31.1, but barely. I've tried pointing the antenna in my bedroom in the same direction, but that channel still doesn't register. No idea why only one channel would just 'disappear,' at any rate...
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  18. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Because you are receiving bounced multi-path signals, not the direct signal.
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  19. VH Wanderer Ai Haibara's Avatar
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    I know, but it's rather weird that it would happen to only one specific channel, and coincide with my messing around with the antenna lines. (I've checked all the connections (antenna and power), and there's nothing wrong with them; re-scanned the channels a few times, too.)
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  20. I encountered an almost identical situation, the answer turned out to be Loosening one of the connections a quarter-turn. Was able to re-produce both the problem, and the solution, by tightening One cable connection One quarter-turn, and then loosening it again.

    I am going on memory here but I think the channel was either 30.1-30.3 or 36.1.
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  21. VH Wanderer Ai Haibara's Avatar
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    It seems like that may have been the case, here, or a similar problem. I removed and reset the antenna cable connection in the back of the TV, then moved all of the cables (antenna, HDMI, RCA) so that they wouldn't move around as freely as before, and... the channel came back. Thanks.
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  22. Member Seeker47's Avatar
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    I'm still interested in this subject -- even though my own process ultimately led me to a successful DirecTV installation that has worked out rather well -- because a good antenna solution would be useful as an alternative, backup, and comparison. In a previous location, I did for awhile have a dual cable / roof antenna setup, and it definitely came in handy at times. One keeps hearing reports that (under the best of circumstances) some of the best HD you might see was via OTA broadcast and the right antenna setup. But there seem to be a lot of conditional IFs involved.

    Awhile back, I went through the whole TVFool chart + local topography thing with a few of you here, plus discussion of various antenna options. But, the inescapable fact is that none of the nearby developments seem to have any roof antennas anymore. Or visible antennas of any kind. They've gone the way of the carrier pigeon. And our HOA is a flaming PITA to deal with for most anything. (Jeez, we can't even park on the street alongside our property for very long, and never after dusk ! It's just not worth the hassle of fighting battles with them that you don't absolutely have to fight.) To top it all off: tall palm trees in the vicinity, and a hill behind our street.

    Although it was in a very different city location, my experience with half a dozen brands / models of indoor antennas was dismal. Amplified or otherwise, that seems like a waste of time. My current attic space is small enough to induce severe claustrophobia, and I don't want to shove any electrical crap up there anyway. That would seem to leave almost no options.

    Lately, I've been hearing a certain amount of hype about some new, compact indoor / outdoor "super antennas" from Antennas Direct -- Clearstream. But several of the basic principles discussed here cast a lot of doubt over the possibility of any such "breakthroughs."

    When I had the DirecTV dish put in, I went to a lot of trouble arranging for it to be done the way that I wanted. The Sat providers no longer seem able or willing to do a chimney mount (but in this case that would have required my renting a looonngg cherry-picker crane, to reach the right position from the curb); they just want to take the path of least resistance and drill into the side wall of your house. I told them no way in hell was that gonna fly. Eventually, I got an ace installer to do a custom eaves mount that was probably as good as the chimney would have been, that was also in a concealed spot where the HOA was very unlikely to give me any grief about it. But, of course, that was all on my dime, not DirecTV's.

    The one idea that occurs to me is that IF there was some really good compact antenna along the lines of the one mentioned above, maybe the guy who did the DirecTV install could find some second eaves location like the first one, where it would be inconspicuous. But what are the chances that would happen to be oriented in the right direction ?

    I suspect that reception is going to be very dicey here anyway. Maybe not relevant, but I have a 7" Viore portable in my office on the second floor. It has something that looks like the Bishop piece in chess for an antenna, which I've placed on the windowsill. This set gets all of 3 OTA channels. One of those is the local ABC affiliate though, with a pretty decent picture, so it's not a total loss.
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  23. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Seeker47 View Post
    I'm still interested in this subject -- even though my own process ultimately led me to a successful DirecTV installation that has worked out rather well -- because a good antenna solution would be useful as an alternative, backup, and comparison. In a previous location, I did for awhile have a dual cable / roof antenna setup, and it definitely came in handy at times. One keeps hearing reports that (under the best of circumstances) some of the best HD you might see was via OTA broadcast and the right antenna setup. But there seem to be a lot of conditional IFs involved.

    Awhile back, I went through the whole TVFool chart + local topography thing with a few of you here, plus discussion of various antenna options. But, the inescapable fact is that none of the nearby developments seem to have any roof antennas anymore. Or visible antennas of any kind. They've gone the way of the carrier pigeon. And our HOA is a flaming PITA to deal with for most anything. (Jeez, we can't even park on the street alongside our property for very long, and never after dusk ! It's just not worth the hassle of fighting battles with them that you don't absolutely have to fight.) To top it all off: tall palm trees in the vicinity, and a hill behind our street.

    Although it was in a very different city location, my experience with half a dozen brands / models of indoor antennas was dismal. Amplified or otherwise, that seems like a waste of time. My current attic space is small enough to induce severe claustrophobia, and I don't want to shove any electrical crap up there anyway. That would seem to leave almost no options.

    Lately, I've been hearing a certain amount of hype about some new, compact indoor / outdoor "super antennas" from Antennas Direct -- Clearstream. But several of the basic principles discussed here cast a lot of doubt over the possibility of any such "breakthroughs."

    When I had the DirecTV dish put in, I went to a lot of trouble arranging for it to be done the way that I wanted. The Sat providers no longer seem able or willing to do a chimney mount (but in this case that would have required my renting a looonngg cherry-picker crane, to reach the right position from the curb); they just want to take the path of least resistance and drill into the side wall of your house. I told them no way in hell was that gonna fly. Eventually, I got an ace installer to do a custom eaves mount that was probably as good as the chimney would have been, that was also in a concealed spot where the HOA was very unlikely to give me any grief about it. But, of course, that was all on my dime, not DirecTV's.

    The one idea that occurs to me is that IF there was some really good compact antenna along the lines of the one mentioned above, maybe the guy who did the DirecTV install could find some second eaves location like the first one, where it would be inconspicuous. But what are the chances that would happen to be oriented in the right direction ?

    I suspect that reception is going to be very dicey here anyway. Maybe not relevant, but I have a 7" Viore portable in my office on the second floor. It has something that looks like the Bishop piece in chess for an antenna, which I've placed on the windowsill. This set gets all of 3 OTA channels. One of those is the local ABC affiliate though, with a pretty decent picture, so it's not a total loss.
    Post your TVFool plot like the one above and I'll try to match you to an antenna. If you have a line of sight (LOS) to the transmitting towers and the towers are all in the same direction, then it should be possible.

    Imagine my plight. I can only reach for 2 edge (two distant ridges in the path) and 60 to 120 Miles distant. The closer stations are blocked by a nearby ridge. Still the 60 mile stations lock in year round while the 120 mile stations only come in during winter after the oak leaves fall. And yes the quality is better than cable/sat. Only VHF 7 and 9 work at 120 miles. Antenna aim needs to be exact (+/- 2 degrees)

    Each house needs a custom solution. My situation requires a back of house roof mount (not visible to street) shooting between two large oak trees. It helps that I'm at ~3,000ft elevation (above the towers) thus avoid ground weather.

    Wineguard HD7697 (extremely directional) + Channel Master VHF/UHF mast mount pre-amplifier.

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    Check out this 126 mile path to KRCR-7 Redding. The VHF signal bends over the two highest mountains in the path to reach me. The antenna + preamp need to produce 91 dB of gain to break through the noise. Fringe reception is very different from urban multi-path reception.

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    Last edited by edDV; 6th Jan 2011 at 17:46.
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  24. Member budwzr's Avatar
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    You can try to catch a "bounce" off a building if you don't have line of site.
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  25. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by budwzr View Post
    You can try to catch a "bounce" off a building if you don't have line of site.
    Problem is bounced signals have variance in gain and direction as a function of temperature and frequency so are less reliable. In an urban strong signal environment, multiple bounced signals (called multi-path) are received confusing the ATSC tuner. Multi-path signals can cancel each other or cause beats.
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  26. Member budwzr's Avatar
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    hmmph!
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    As for me, while I probably could set up a roof-mounted antenna, the problem I have is that to do it, I'd have to run cables through my bedroom window. I mean, sure, I could just get another HD DirecTV receiver. But they don't offer all of the local OTA channels, and there isn't much on cable/satellite channels I want to watch, all that often.
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    Couple of points.
    Kudos to those who posted antennaweb and tvfool. really that is the way to do this. Setting up Over the Air TA is mostly a one time expense and it pays to do a bit of research and do it right. with the tvfool tool you can see the type of signals you need to pull and get avery good idea of the type of antenna needs. My brother in law has had a beautiful hdtv set 22 miles from NYC and has been doing all his live tv via sd cable all this time because he doesnt want to pay the money. One hour of research, a proper antenna which cost $60 on amazon, $22 worth of cable and accessories from monoprice, and less than three hours mounting the antenna and positioning it gave him ABC, NBC, CBS, Several PBS in HD on both his HD sets.

    Although Ed has givne first rate advice, AVSforums has a thread specifically on OTA antenna where you post your tvfool and get some excellent opinions from expert antenna installers.

    One final point, when I cut the cord and did mine own two years ago my main issue was multipath from being in a building bowl 4 miles form the main towers. (not likly an issue with the OP's tvfool). I discovered after buying a separate tuner for my one set which was monitor only tha tit got twice as many stations as my hdtv with a tuner form the same lead. It was that I had a fifth generation tuner and the main advance in sixth gen tuners (about the past four years) was not bette ability to deal with distance but much better multipath handling. I ended up buying a second tuner (about $60) to use and it worked brilliantly.
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  29. Member Seeker47's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by edDV View Post
    Each house needs a custom solution. My situation requires a back of house roof mount (not visible to street) shooting between two large oak trees. It helps that I'm at ~3,000ft elevation (above the towers) thus avoid ground weather.

    Wineguard HD7697 (extremely directional) + Channel Master VHF/UHF mast mount pre-amplifier.

    Image
    [Attachment 4988 - Click to enlarge]
    Thanks for your reply. Off the cuff, I would note that there is visible from the street, and then there is visible to adjoining houses. That can be problematical in planned communities where they enforce a cookie-cutter uniformity of appearance. (It's quite ridiculous how much one can spend on a house in this area, but still be subject to having people up in your business over minor cosmetic issues.) I doubt that anything like the above would work, from the unobtrusiveness standpoint. That's why I expressed some curiosity about the ones I had seen that had the form factor of half a car's bumper (from back when cars still had bumpers ) -- rather flat, no tall mast, no "giant grill basket for the BBQ." But I realize that an antenna that is not tall or does not have long spokes might not be too good at pulling in signal. (?)
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  30. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Seeker47 View Post
    Originally Posted by edDV View Post
    Each house needs a custom solution. My situation requires a back of house roof mount (not visible to street) shooting between two large oak trees. It helps that I'm at ~3,000ft elevation (above the towers) thus avoid ground weather.

    Wineguard HD7697 (extremely directional) + Channel Master VHF/UHF mast mount pre-amplifier.

    Image
    [Attachment 4988 - Click to enlarge]
    Thanks for your reply. Off the cuff, I would note that there is visible from the street, and then there is visible to adjoining houses. That can be problematical in planned communities where they enforce a cookie-cutter uniformity of appearance. (It's quite ridiculous how much one can spend on a house in this area, but still be subject to having people up in your business over minor cosmetic issues.) I doubt that anything like the above would work, from the unobtrusiveness standpoint. That's why I expressed some curiosity about the ones I had seen that had the form factor of half a car's bumper (from back when cars still had bumpers ) -- rather flat, no tall mast, no "giant grill basket for the BBQ." But I realize that an antenna that is not tall or does not have long spokes might not be too good at pulling in signal. (?)
    I'm not suggesting that solution for you, my case is extreme fringe. We don't know your situation without a TVFool plot. After that we can figure a solution (e.g side mount or attic). I'm assuming you don't have to reach 126 miles and you may not need VHF. UHF only antennas are much smaller.
    Last edited by edDV; 7th Jan 2011 at 16:48.
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