Capturing 8mm tapes, stick with the Video 8 or get a Dig 8?

[SkinnyDog]

Truebit wrote:

playing old 8mm tapes through a digital8 (except trv130 - cos the dont allow this) via firewire will certainly give better end result comparable quality than through an analog corder/card for various technical reasons including much higher quality internal drum mechanism on d8 equipment and various tbc improvements due to buffering, not to mention the highly efficient onboard dv codec to mpeg or whatever choice, that is of a higher quality than 8mm to mjpeg to avi to mpeg or whatever.

I have a couple of questions about this post. "better end result". Are you talking about captureing analog video or just replaying it? What is the end result you are referring to?

I believe you also refer to the technical reasons you believe that captureing analog video to a digital camcorder (I assume either digital 8 or minidv) is superior to a computer capture card and the reasons being a superior drum, tbc improvements due to buffering and a better dv codec. Could you explain this. I'm trying to decide whether to capture old vhs home movies via a computer capture card or to capture to my minidv camcorder (Cannon zr-20 if it makes any difference) and then to the computer through firewire. Any clarification of your technical comments would be appreciated.
skinnydog

[Innershield]

vhelp, I think we are saying the same thing here. I agree with what you are saying but not with truebrit. It sounds to me like he is saying that the D8 will always play analog better.

[chaseru]

I'll add my experience to the debate.

I have a number of Video 8 home videos I'm transfering to DVD. At first I hooked a Video 8 camcorder to a basic Intel BT848 capture card using composite cables. I captured at 720x480 using Huffyuv codec. The playback quality of the avi file could be described as "good" although there was a fair amount of noise in the picture.

I then purchased a Sony GV-D200 videoman. This is a small video deck that plays Video 8, Hi8, and Digital 8. I'm not entirely sure whether this deck is superior to the playback or record capabilities of Sony's Digital 8 camcorders. It does have some playback features such as TBC and Digital Noise Reduction (or something similar to this) that the camcorders may not have and the tape movement mechanism may be more robust. I played my Video 8 tapes in this deck while transfering the dv through the firewire port using the DVIO program. Playback quality of the dv avi file was better than using the capture card. It was sharper and there was less noise, although a somewhat grainy appearance remainded.

After encoding using TMPGEnc the mgeg-2 files transfered via the GV-D200 were superior to the files captured through the BT848.

I recognize that the DV avi file already has compression and a MPEG encoder probably works better with an uncompressed avi, however I believe the Sony GV-D200 deck provided a "cleaner" transfer that offset any loss that the DV compression caused.

[darkelf]

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The answer to this is *VERY SIMPLE*

It appears that people are looking for something, but asking the WRONG question, possibly making a bad assumption at the same time.

QUESTION: Sending Analogue information to DV then capturing the DV format via FireWire?

!!! Very Important !!!
What you *NEED* to find out is whether the *QUALITY* of the capture mechanism in the DV camera is better/worse/same than the analogue capture mechanism on the capture board in the computer.

If MiniDV can capture at a better resolution (larger SIZE) and better picture quality (COLORS are true) than your current analogue capture card than using a DV camera as the capture device doing the
analogue <-> digital conversion is the better option.

Now, if your capture card in the PC is kik ass (translation: good COLOR of the frames, and the SIZE of the image is adequate, be it 720x480 or 352x240 or 15x15 bigger is better) and these specs are better than what you can get from DV (I believe the frame size is fixed on 720x480?), you will want to do the analogue capture with the PC card.

I realize that there are many *well, it depends*. Often the assumption can be made that the capture quality is identical across brands, but the reality of the situation is that there is a wide difference in the way capture cards work. The forums are proof of this.

And for the answer to the question if purchasing a DV-8 camera will make the capture quality better, the answer is again: it depends.

Not in the way that people are talking about (FireWire capture, vs. analogue). What we need to know if the DV-8 cameras have a better reproduction mechanism for analogue tapes. Cameras are different. Some are better at some things than others. You could very well go out and purchase the most high-end analogue HI-8 camera on the market and you could likely have better luck with this camera (assumption is higher price = higher QUALITY) in conjunction with your capture device (we determined this in the first part of the post) will produce a better analogue image.

That is the key (alot of the GIGO acronym flying around). Get the BEST ANALOGUE quality possible. Then capture that with the mechanism that provides the BEST QUALITY. Whether this is a DV/DV-8 camera or a PC capture card doesn't really matter.

Personal opinion: unless your current Hi-8 video camera is showing its years, using it as the analogue half of the capture situation (along with some capture card in your PC) will produce adequate results.

Purchasing a new camera could theoretically produce a better analogue image. Is that possible 5-10% quality increase worth $400.00? Maybe to you, but not to me.

Stick with what you got.


*************************************

[SkinnyDog]

*************************************

The answer to this is *VERY SIMPLE*

It appears that people are looking for something, but asking the WRONG question, possibly making a bad assumption at the same time.

QUESTION: Sending Analogue information to DV then capturing the DV format via FireWire?

!!! Very Important !!!
What you *NEED* to find out is whether the *QUALITY* of the capture mechanism in the DV camera is better/worse/same than the analogue capture mechanism on the capture board in the computer.


*************************************

With the promise of a very simple answer, darkelf, you don't provide any anwer at all. That's not really a criticism as no one really sems to know the answer. Is the "quality" of the capture mechanism in the DV camera better that the capture mechanism used in most of the capture cards discussed on this board, at least those under $500. We know what the question is, we're looking for the answer.

Interestingly after reviewing a new DV bridge from canopus, PC Mag seems to recommend getting a DV camcorder.

[/url]http://www.pcmag.com/article/0,2997,s=1470&a=21127,00.asp

skinnydog

[TechJunkie]

Here's my story:

Own a Hi8 Sony TR81 on which I made video of my kids growing up over the last 8 years. Built a very fast 2GHz PC with a dedicated fast 120 GB disk to do my video editing. Bought a Dazzle Hollywood DV-Bridge: the conversion was good but had some dropped frames and intermittent "pixelized" or very digitally distorted sound. I've RMA'd it and a new one is on its way.

Now I'm considering returning the new one, unopened, for credit and applying the $250 towards a mid-line Sony Digital8 system. It appears to do the A to D (pass through) as well as the other way: D to A. The consensus of this thread seems to be that a good digital camcorder with conversion capabilities eliminates the need for a capture card or a Dazzle "appliance" without any compromise of quality.

Am I missing something, or am I on the right track?

Thanks,

[tinycorkscrew]

TechJunkie -

My story is very similar to yours. I had bought a DV-Bridge, but when I realized how (relatively) inexpensive Sony Digital8 cameras were, I sent it back and picked up a new camcorder for maybe $200 more than what the DV-Bridge had cost.

If you buy a Digital8 camera (other than the TRV130, I believe), you won't have to use pass-through for your Hi8 tapes - you insert the Hi8 tape directly into the camera and it recognizes its format. But to answer your question, yes, there is no compromise in quality if you go with Digital8 pass-through to do conversion instead of a Hollywood DV or capture card. As long as your hard drive can keep up with the 3.6mb/s that DV requires, you should be fine.

[SingSing]

BTW I have used the equipment. If I failed to mention it, let me mention it now. I have a trv68 Hi8, a trv130 D8, and a trv230 D8 which I specifically bought because of the backwards compatability and A/V ins.

Which of these camcorders give you the best video on TV ?

[TechJunkie]

TechJunkie -

My story is very similar to yours. I had bought a DV-Bridge, but when I realized how (relatively) inexpensive Sony Digital8 cameras were, I sent it back and picked up a new camcorder for maybe $200 more than what the DV-Bridge had cost.

If you buy a Digital8 camera (other than the TRV130, I believe), you won't have to use pass-through for your Hi8 tapes - you insert the Hi8 tape directly into the camera and it recognizes its format. But to answer your question, yes, there is no compromise in quality if you go with Digital8 pass-through to do conversion instead of a Hollywood DV or capture card. As long as your hard drive can keep up with the 3.6mb/s that DV requires, you should be fine.

Fantastic!

I would use the passthrough if I were to go with miniDV. If I go to a D8 camcorder, would I find that it will play the Hi8 media better than the Hi8 camcorder on which it was recorded? The Sony D8's do not have a Zeiss lense, whereas their miniDV's do: any thoughts on that?

Thanks for your comments. 8)

[darkelf]

[quote="SkinnyDog"]
With the promise of a very simple answer, darkelf, you don't provide any anwer at all. That's not really a criticism as no one really sems to know the answer. Is the "quality" of the capture mechanism in the DV camera better that the capture mechanism used in most of the capture cards discussed on this board, at least those under $500. We know what the question is, we're looking for the answer.

Interestingly after reviewing a new DV bridge from canopus, PC Mag seems to recommend getting a DV camcorder.

----

If we are looking to get the best quality capture one needs to look at whether the capture card is better than the firewire/DV option.

Purchasing a Dig-8 camcorder to facilitate better playback of analogue tapes is not a cost-effective option, unless possible future use of the camera is taken into consideration.

Some capture cards are limited in the range of resolutions that they can handle. Reading thru the posts I didn't see what type of card was being used.

I have one of these older cards. It cannot cap at DV resolutions. So a DV/Dig-8 camcorder could prove to be a good investment, as it handily covers the jobs of a capture device as well as a full-function camcorder.

OTOH, if the capture card is older (and has limitations) it may be a better investment to pick up an AIW or Dazzle card.

What type of capture card are you using right now?
What is the max cap resolution/frame rate/etc?

Without all of the information, nobody can give a good recommendation. I figured it would be easier to give the guy options up front to consider, rather than play forum-tag.

[ChrisX]

I have a batch of analog Video 8 tapes myself and you are better off sticking with your old analog video camera transferring them directly into your HD with your video card. Your videos will become digital in the computer anyway. This way will save you time and money doing this.

A new DV camera won't make the playback of the analog Video 8 any better. So, why waste time and money buying a new DV camera unless the camera is out of order or your want to improve your camera shots.

DV camera is the way to go if you want ZOOM ahead with clearer and sharper images now and the future.

On the subject of using the Camera USB cable input to the computer. I wouldn't advise using the USB cable device to record videos in to the HD. The USB have a limit on what I can do, the picture resolution is poor and have a limited capturing time allowed into the HD. This is due to the nature of USB connection into the computer. My USB camera connection only allows a 10-minute recording time. You are better off using a video or TV card to capture from the camera.

[traxxton]

Thanks for the responses everyone. Im going to stick with my analog card for now. I have about 20 tapes about two-three hours long each, for most of them im just going to capture them at 352x240 and convert to vcd and for a few capture at 720x240 (highest setting on card) and convert to svcd. I still think a digital 8 camera would bring it in better because I wont have to worry about adjusting sound/video and in someways easier to capture insted of setting up vdub and getting everything right, but seeing how I have about 20 tapes to convert, capturing them this way and converting them to vcd would be the fastest and best way.

As far as the usb capture, my first capture device was the dazzle digital video and photo maker. I couldnt get it to go above 320x240 with windows oses and above 352x240 on a friends mac. Then I got this ati tv wonder.

[Innershield]

SingSing,
The trv68 is good but the resolution of the trv130 and the 230 is sharper, especially at close-ups. it is razor sharp even on my 51"tv. the 130 and the 230 look exactly the same.

[SingSing]

Thank you.

It ended my speculation that analog camcorder take better video.