Hidden Layers in Film

[Snuffy]

Hi all. Just joined today but I've been lurking the corridors for years. This site is excellent and the members are really helpful.

I have a little project I'm working on that may interest you film buffs.
I have noticed a hidden layer in more than one film and would like to know how to bring this to the fore. I had the VTS files (about1gig each) converted to mpeg or avi video but I dumped the copies a while back and forgot how I did it. I need to figure the simple/fast way to convert the VTS files so I can use them as demo's. I know there are some tutorials here but I haven't found a solution that I quite understand. I'm not a tech person, so sorry for the annoying flailing. I need to work on that.

More on the project. The hidden layer I'm talking about is percieved by the subconscious and under the right conditions, when playback is stopped, some afterimages persist. When I discovered this phenomena I dug a little deeper until I found what I had been looking at all along, but couldn't discern.
I'm sure there are a few filmmakers/tech wizards out there who understand precisely what I'm talking about. I mean some tech genius has to be responsible/consulted for incorporating this layer in the film.

Ideally I'd want to preserve the quality of the original file. The simple/fast conversion is simply to prove my hard evidence in a quick and dirty manner.

This could mean a thesis worth the paper it's written on so I'm eager to get moving on this.

Cheers.

[filmboss80]

Certainly, many filmmakers will put subtle things into scenes from time to time, but there are no layers that can be separated, per se. What you might perceive to be "hidden layers" are likely nothing more than artifacts that occur when encoding sub-frames (like B frames) in mpeg-2, mpeg-4, etc. It may be especially prevalent with rapid scene changes, high motion, and/or blended and repeated telecine frames. In those cases, they are technical anomalies, not conspiratorial mind tricks.

If you wrote a thesis paper on this, you're likely to be laughed out of school. Don't bother.

[mrswla]

There are 30fps (frames per second) in interlaced video and 60fps in progressive. Basically you can make a "subconscious" video by inserting say 3 to 7 frames of something completely different then the material at hand.
This is a perfect example. You will see it happens at about 1:50. THE PSI CORPS IS YOUR FRIEND. TRUST THE CORPS.

[jman98]

People that I would consider to be rational think that this idea is a complete waste of time. There's no evidence that this ever works. Well, not in the way that people think it works. At absolute best it can provoke a very minor emotional response that does not last. The idea that it makes some sort of permanent change in behavior or attitudes is false.

I think filmboss80 is probably right. I'm finding it really difficult that any respectable school would be happy with such a thesis. This is known as "subliminal messaging" by the way.

Link to relevant Wikipedia article - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subliminal_messaging

[mrswla]

The idea that it makes some sort of permanent change in behavior or attitudes is false.

You mean all those years listening to Judas Priest, Black Sabbath, and Alice Cooper backwards was wasted time!!

[filmboss80]

I didn't get the impression that the OP was talking about the usual flash-frame subliminal images, but rather an after-image artifact that is sometimes seen when you freeze at just the right point on a heavily compressed mpeg file. Whatever the case, I still think it's not worth getting worked up over.

[Noahtuck]

The idea that it makes some sort of permanent change in behavior or attitudes is false.

You mean all those years listening to Judas Priest, Black Sabbath, and Alice Cooper backwards was wasted time!!

I don't think Alice Cooper really belongs on that list but you did forget Iron Maiden and Led Zeppelin

Ahh the good old days of a turntable, i remember taking cassette decks apart and adjusting the head so far over it would read the opposite side of the cassette so it could be played back at a consistent speed in reverse, unlike standing there turning an album in reverse by hand

LOL!!

[jagabo]

I didn't get the impression that the OP was talking about the usual flash-frame subliminal images, but rather an after-image artifact that is sometimes seen when you freeze at just the right point on a heavily compressed mpeg file.

Or from temporal noise filtering. Cable and satellite broadcasts are pretty bad about this.

[PuzZLeR]

Queen was the best backwards...

(At some point after that in my youthful days I got a job and that was the end of this experimentation... )

[Snuffy]

Thanks for the replies so far. I really appreciate all the responses. But I'm still hoping for the help/advice I'm looking for tho

I hear what some are saying. I'm not concerned with the ethics or belief that it is good or bad 'magic'. I've read about backward masking and all the ideas that people have about it are understandable. But I don't want to be sidetracked by that.

These artifacts are showing themselves consistently and clearly. The hidden layer is there. I don't doubt that.
If I could get the help/advice needed then I could prove it to those willing to hear.

You don't have to believe me. Just thought I'd share a little about the project so you'd get what I'm trying to achieve.

Thesis or not I'm doing this, and I want to do it right.

[mrswla]

Please point us to some examples that you are talking about. If you are not referring to the video example I posted or the artifacts that the others have mentioned, then I have no idea what you are talking about.

[jagabo]

These artifacts are showing themselves consistently and clearly. The hidden layer is there. I don't doubt that.
If I could get the help/advice needed then I could prove it to those willing to hear.

I don't know what you're talking about but I'm curious to see some examples.

Regarding your files: You can convert VOB files to MPG with VOB2MPG or Mpeg2Cut2. You can open VOB files directly in VirtualDubMod and export frames as PNG files. Or open them in VirtualDub and Copy to the copy/paste buffer then use your image editor of choice to paste as a new image or into another image.

[filmboss80]

Yes, like mrswla and jagabo, I'm really, really, REALLY interested in seeing an example. Post something. This should be fun.

[Snuffy]

Thanks for the advice Jagabo. I think I'll have to figure this one out myself, just pressed for time tho.

& I appreciate all the fun comments too. I don't wanna respond to them tho, except to say that 'Led Zeppelin rocks!'

Post something? Sure thing. In time I will. But first I gotta get this shit together. That's why I'm asking for some advice first. I need to know how & what programs to use. I have a few of the programs like Auto GK, VOB2MPGv2_3 and a couple versions of virtualdub.

What I want to do is pretty simple(except for me lol):
I have the movie file in iso. When I mount it in DAEMON Tools it ahows up as seperate VTS files of approx 1gig each. I'd like to convert the video to an format that can be edited. I think I had mine done in avi but it was too large to manage so I dumped it. So I'm looking for another option like mpeg or something without losing much quality.

Thanks for the helpful replies. I'm just a guy who needs help. Videohelp.
But please remember, I'm not here to convince anyone. I just thought sharing a bit of the 'why' would help my cause.

[filmboss80]

Don't re-encode. You can always use a freebie tool like Mpg2Cut2 to cut out a few seconds from a .vob file (very short clip, mind you--no huge file size), and give us an idea what the hell you're talking about.

In the meantime, get yourself oriented with the quirks of mpeg encoding, especially motion estimation and predicted frames in GOPs (groups of pictures), especially in the encoding of B-frames. You might want to start here:

http://www.cs.cf.ac.uk/Dave/Multimedia/node259.html

That should help you better comprehend residual picture errors.

[Noahtuck]

I see someone is on a trip on the good ship lollipop

[Snuffy]

Thanks again. You guys have been great.
Cheers filmboss80 & the rest of the 'Lollipop Gang' lol