Clipping or Distortion on Vocal High Notes of Ripped Audio

[MLK3329]

Hi Brilliant Tech Guys,

Can anyone tell me what one does when you rip audio successfully from a video tape, use Audacity to edit it beautifully except for the high notes that still have some clipping or distortion? According to Audacity, there was no clipping (red lines) during the editing of each track but when I play the master CD on my car stereo for example, there is definitely clipping on the high notes of these wonderful arias. It defeats my whole purpose of transferring them from video tape to CD. I took it to Best Buy and played it on many stereo units there and did not really notice the distortion....but then it's a very loud store! LOL There is no distortion when playing it on my Mac or other laptop....but some, on my Sony portable CD player.

I'm wondering if I should start all over again and upload the songs to Audacity at a slightly lower volume, maybe 2 clicks below midpoint of input volume. Sixteen songs was a lot of hard work! I'd rather not do that. Any suggestions? This is going to be a CD of my work for sale, as well as a promo when necessary. I cannot put out a distorted CD....not one with classical music on it.

Help!

Thank you!
MLK3329

[davexnet]

I've seen some scenarios where mic input was distorted before it was digitized; the digital wave form was not clipped, no where near it, but the mic gain overloaded while still at the analog stage.

If you rip the CD and clearly see the audio doesn't clip, then I'd examine your whole work flow to see if something like the above could be happening. ie. you overloaded the input. This analog overload has a different sound
to digital clipping.

Either that or your car stereo is screwed up.

[MLK3329]

Hi Dave!

Thanks for your input. Do you mean by "mic gain overload" that I had the input volume too high when I ripped the audio from the DVD? Somewhat new at this stuff and not used to all of the industry lingo. LOL!

The stereo in my car is 10 years old but when I play my professionally mastered CD collection on it (yes, some people still play CD's) there is no distortion. I have also played my CD on my Sony Liv CD/Tape player and noticed the distortion on that as well, so it's not just the car CD player.

When I listen to it on my Mac using headphones it sounds good and I've also listened to it on a brand new Sony laptop at Best buy recently...with headphones as well.

I've decided to rip the entire 16 songs again and upload them to Audacity at a slightly lower input volume. I'm assuming this is what you meant. If not, please clarify if you would.

I appreciate your help.
Thanks.
MLK3329

[budwzr]

"Clipping" is a cut off peak.

[davexnet]

What I really meant was analog-introduced distortion; caused by an overload from the playback device.
It can happen if there is a voltage mismatch. You haven't really described your flow in too much detail -
did you plug the VCR into the sound card? Any controls on the sound card mixer that may help?

You could always post a problem clip if you want a second opinion.

[MLK3329]

I have decided that it's probably my car CD player that's the problem. I just don't want to sell this CD to people who might encounter the problem as well, if it's in the editing itself. (The VCR tapes were made awhile ago from the master camera video tapes.) Later on, those same master camera video tapes were converted into a DVD and were pristine, as far as I know. I know nothing about how the VCR tapes were made because I had them done at the marketing department of the company I was working for at the time. All of the TV commercials for the company were made there so I know they were done professionally. I'm concerned with the DVD audio only now, not the tapes. All of my work has gone into the editing of the audio ripped from the DVD. I'm going to hand some copies out to friends to see how they sound on their home stereo systems, etc. I should be able to get a better read that way. Thanks for your help!!! I appreciate all of your feedback. MLK3329

[lordsmurf]

Use a mixer and reduce the gain before digital ingest.
Base it off peak amplitude, not a random sample from the track.

[MLK3329]

Hi Lordsmurf!

Thanks for you suggestion. FYI. I'm trying several different approaches because I did get some feedback, just this evening after I sent my latest post to you folks, from the Audacity Staff Forum guys. They are convinced that my car stereo is the problem. It's been suggested that I redo the songs at -7db using "Amplify" instead of "Normalization at "0" which is what I originally Normalized them at. They also had me download a Kathleen Battle audio clip to burn, and then play on my car stereo, to see if there is the same distortion with her high range. I own several of her CD's anyway, but it's been suggested that when I play this 9 second clip, that I'll find the same problem with it that I have been having. So.....I'm game! I'll try anything now to solve this problem.

Thanks!
MLK3329

[magillagorilla]

MLK3329,
I'm a little lost on your process. Do you have the original VHS tapes? If you really want to restore the audio then use the source tapes. Plug the audio out of the VCR in to your sound card's line in. What you have lost is dynamic range somewhere. I could be that when the VHS was mastered to DVD the audio was run through a compressor/limiter. This would raise the overall loudness of the recording and could be the cause of your issue. If the recording is not clipping it could still be brickwalling. A brickwall is where a digital audio recording has all of the dynamic range squashed out of it so that all frequencies are maximized for volume. The waveform looks chuncky and flat at the top instead of having varied peaks and troughs. This could also be caused by the analog equivilant referred to as overload. In the analog equivilant the audio signal's voltage exceeds the range of the recording media causing distortion and a flat chunky waveform like digital's brickwalling. Clipping is a totally different subject.

Only way to tell is to go back to the source. Besides it will sound better. DVD uses a lossy codec for audio.

[Cornucopia]

If you REEEAAALLLLYYY want to get the best quality, get the source audio from wherever your Marketing Dept. got it from. What they were working with and gave you is already 1 or 2 generations down. and ...VHS?? Even the best VHS Hi-Fi Stereo tracks are nowhere near close to digital.

Also, I strongly recommend that you get the levels right from the beginning during ingest, so then there's NO need to Normalize/Amplify at all. Use both analog & digital RMS+Peak reading meters to help maximize your level. You could also add some minor compression/peak limiting if the multiple tracks are all over the map, though. If you filter/FX/mix digitally, do use dithering to avoid any further distortions.

Scott

[MLK3329]

Hi Guys!

Thanks for the input, especially the info on what happens in the process of converting Camcorder videos to DVD in terms of sound. The VHS tapes were created from the original Camcorder tapes which I still have. But... I'm not dealing with VHS tapes at all right now, only the audio that I ripped from the DVD that was created from the Camcorder videos. I am also not working at that company any longer and, I no longer own a VHS player.

So.....since I still have the original source tapes - Camcorder Video Tapes - how do I rip the audio directly from those tapes to get the best sound? Now, I'm not talking VHS here, but the original Camcorder tapes given to me by people who had attended my concerts. I do not own a Camcorder. The tapes are smaller than VHS tapes, of course, but I don't have the equipment to view them on, or a camcorder, or any technology that I presently own. I know absolutely nothing about video, anything, except for DVD players, VHS players, movies on my Mac and flat screen TV's LOL

My original point to having the Camcorder Tapes converted to DVD was to preserve them from degradation. I wanted to upload some of my performances to You Tube...but...I also wanted to use some of the songs for a CD so that's why I ripped the audio from the DVD. Can I rent the equipment to rip the audio from the Camcorder Tapes? Can I rent equipment to copy them to another form of media so I can then rip the audio? I agree, that the audio would have been much better if I had been able to copy it directly from the source tapes.

Thanks and Happy New Year!
MLK3329

[Cornucopia]

Maybe you don't realize it, but the term "Camcorder Video Tapes" could refer easily to 10 or more consumer formats and/or a greater number of Pro formats.

But I'm going to go out on a limb and ask, do the tapes look like this?

If so, you are talking about Digital Video (aka DV, miniDV). The good news for that would be that you could transfer the file digitally to Hard drive, which would be directly usable as 16bit,48kHz Stereo LPCM (like WAV) file, which can be directly authored onto a DVD without ANY conversion (aka NO LOSS). You'd just need to borrow/rent a camcorder (and PC with Firewire port if you didn't have one), or you could get them simply transferred at a pro dub house or production company ( or maybe even somebody on this forum), leaving you with files on a hard drive.

Unless the camcorder did a bad job of recording the material, you might not even need to NORMALIZE/gain change.

Scott

[MLK3329]

Hi Scott!

Thanks for getting back to me so soon. I went looking for the original Camcorder tapes this morning but haven't located them as yet. As I recall, they do look similar to the example that you sent (thanks for the extra effort) and are about 5 inches in length, I believe. Maybe 3 inches in width? They aren't black though...clear...I believe. It's been awhile since I've seen them, but I know I still have them.

So, I could rent a camcorder and the other equipment necessary? Good. I do have a Mac and a Firewire cable and port already. I no longer own a PC. Hmm...a pro dub house. The one I originally took the tapes to in order to have them converted to DVD, somehow, ruined one of my best arias by leaving a gap in the last long and beautiful note that I was singing. I was aghast, when I saw it in the Audacity waveform. I tried to "close" it.. but to no avail. I ended up using the VHS taped version on the CD because the original Camcorder and VHS tapes do not have that gap.

If I can do what you suggested, then I'd have the original source audio and could use that particular "ruined" aria as well. This taped version I was forced to use on the CD, sounds less "clean" than the other songs simply because it was ripped from an audio cassette tape instead of the DVD.

Do you think that the Geek Squad at Best Buy might be able to help me with a Camcorder, etc? I've never rented anything like that before, but they must have rental places that offer that sort of thing, I'm sure?

I know what you mean by possibly not using "Normalize" on these songs. I've often wondered if I should have simply left that step out altogether... since the songs sounded so "clean" to me before I began to edit them in Audacity. Hey, I'm new at all this folks...but I'm learning! LOL. You guys are the experts....and I fully appreciate your expertise!


Wish me luck!
Happy New Year!!
MLK3329

[magillagorilla]

MLK3329,
You just need to figure out what you are working with first then search for advise. For the purest transfer a digital source needs to be transferred digitally if the source tape is analog you'll have to sample it using your sound card.

[MLK3329]

Hi,

Thanks. I guess know what I'm dealing with after I find those original tapes.

All the best...

MLK3329