Tipper Gore's pro-censorship history!

[resnullius]

Some Canadians just have an inferiority complex

I'm having difficulty understanding where that comes from mind explaining with documented examples? or is that just something you heard somewhere and thought you'd repeat it now because you lacked any logical argument

[MOVIEGEEK]

What I'm saying is:"If you don't live in the US then BUTTOUT of our
business!"You won't hear me commenting on affairs in Canada.

By the way, Canada is just a weighstation for immigrants into the US
(several of the hijackers from 9/11 came through your country)

[Mirror_Image]

Some people from any large nation have inferiority complexes. In this instance, he was correct.

[resnullius]

actually some ppl in every nations have self-esteem problems... And comment on affairs in Canada as much as you want, i don't mind i will either agree or disagree, but i will try to give a good reason for agreeing or disagreeing.

[doug1937@hotmail.com]

Um...guys? What does any of this have to do with VCDs?

[MOVIEGEEK]

Good topic Mirror_Image Well I'm off to rape,pillage and plunder
(how the foriegn press perceives americans).

[BerrantRyke]

ETHNOCENTRISM- the belief that ones culture is superior to all others

[Mirror_Image]

actually some ppl in every nations have self-esteem problems

Of course they do, and in light of that, why did you post this earlier?:

I'm having difficulty understanding where that comes from mind explaining with documented examples?

Do you often require documented examples for things that you already accept to be true? If I hold a rock out at arms length while I stand in my living room, then let go of that rock, it will fall. This statement raises no eyebrows, not unlike saying, "Los Angeles (or Quebec, or London, or Caracas, or Dakkar, ad infinitum, ad nauseaum) has some very odd people living there." would not raise them either.

It's likely that you accept both to be true, but would you need "documented examples" anyway? Somehow, I doubt it.

Is it possible that he just touched a nerve, and that you really didn't need what you requested.

[resnullius]

Actually Mirror_Image, i was trying to make a point. As i know it was an unfounded slander aimed towards me, i thought it was a great moment to have him look up what he was saying rather than just say one sentence wonders where he states an opinion with no proof, no documentation, no explaination as to his argument. Sophism, while seeming logical, is not necessarly what it seems. Were i to say a dandilion is yellow and round same as the sun, therefore the sun is a big dandilion. Sound's plausible but we know it's not the truth. Anyways had you read the question as it was meant (sorry i thought it was clear) the question was why he thought that statment was usefull to the discussion.

BerrantRyke
thx for the explanation of what it means, my question tho, was what did you mean by it. Did you mean that Americans are ethnocentric or that some other nation was(I assumed untill i saw an american flag bellow your statement that you meant amerians were the ones your comment was aimed at)

[BerrantRyke]

We are *all* ethnocentristic. Its a human flaw. We each think that our own country or culture or society is the best. And for good reason. We were raised in it. So we are biased from birth.

During my time in the service, I had opportunity to "visit" Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Korea, Germany and Italy. Each country had its own culture. Each was unique in its own ways. With its own flaws and drawback and mistakes. However, NO culture is more right or wrong than any other.

Even what is right and wrong is defined by each culture. What is desireable is defined by your society.

Yes, I am a US citizen. But I do not believe that my culture is "superior" to any others around the world. Even if I dont agree with things that are socially acceptable in some of them. Like in Saudi, I witnessed a man beating the hell out of his wife. Here, that guy would be arrested. There, no one intervened. It "normal" and acceptable for them.

Well, I think I have rambled on enough. Food for thought everyone. Enjoy!

[resnullius]

thx for the clarification BerrantRyke, I like do like what you say(that all cultures have their own definition of right and wrong, and that none is superior). although you say we're all ethnocentric and then say you are not I like to believe i am not ethnocentric, i don't think there is a best country, i like to believe however that i live in one of the most open ones (i can say god doesn't exist or that my priminister is full of shit without ever getting assulted or most of the time not even insulted) I'm not saying we are better than the US, i'm not saying that Canada doesn't have problems of it's own. And i'll repeat an earlier statement, if ever someone want's to make a comment about Canada, i'll be more than happy to be part of that discussion also(pls if someone does make good on my offer start a new thread tho(you might want to private message me if you see i'm not answering, i must have not seen it))

Only in America ! [/img]

[d4n13l]

To clarify my own position here, I am a human being. I will not be blindly led by propaganda or fall victim to psuedo-history, I look at the facts and tell it like it is. I dont like the way the current US government is acting - It is my right, as a citizen of this planet, to speak up. I have nothing against the American people, but learn to realise that the US government is a seperate entity from its people. I dont regard any society being "the best", therefore when I am being told that I am jealous of anothers, I will gladly throw it back in their face, backed up by facts. If I see governments acting not in the interests of humanity, I will speak up about it. It is called Free Speech; a notion that exists outside of the US too, even if some people dont like to listen to it. To even put forward the notion that only internal critisism should be listened to, is extremely arrogant. I think that kind of dogmatism is highly obnoxious: There are decisions made by the US government that effect everybody, not just those inside the country. There millions of people that live in this world that will be effected through poor US foreign policy, I have given many links to examples of this and no longer wish to repeat myself. I suggest that some people read them.

BTW,
Yes, we do have a tendancy to think ethnocentrically. However, that doesnt necessarily mean that always you conclude that your culture to be better than anothers. It means that you merely evaluate other races and cultures by criterea specific to your own.

[BerrantRyke]

Yes, we do have a tendancy to think ethnocentrically. However, that doesnt necessarily mean that always you conclude that your culture to be better than anothers. It means that you merely evaluate other races and cultures by criterea specific to your own.

Thats my point exactly.

[d4n13l]

I feel that some people had the idea that being ethnocentric, meant that you thought that your country was "better" than anothers.

ETHNOCENTRISM- the belief that ones culture is superior to all others

However, ethnocentrism can also lead you to conclude that your country is worse than anothers.
Ethnocentrism is only a means to evaluate:

Ethnocentric - adj. evaluating other races and cultures by criterea specific to one's own.

[garibaldo]

It's sickening how many anti-American left wing European nuts there are on this board. I'm from the middle east and I don't pretend to think that the US is the greatest country on the Earth (I'll let our immigration rates speak for itself), but it is painfully obvious that all of you anti-American Europeans simply have an inferiority complex. You see a nation with more power and money than yours so you ban together to make the EU\UN and demand that your will be imposed upon the US. Then most of Europe comes together to form the Euro to compete with the dollar. Start listing your countries so we Americans can have a fair shot at our OWN critique of your countries. Brits? You out there? Let's have a crack at your history of imperialism? Or your own financial indifference to the world? How much foreign aid does your country give? France? How many wars have you avoided? Cowards. Come on, list them...You sit safe at your computer terminals spouting off this rehearsed leftist BS without opening yourself up to similar attacks. BTW, whoever said other countries have to deal with terrorism all of the time are right, but not to the same degree we have to deal with it. Where were most of the post 9/11 terrorists found? Hiding and plotting in EUROPE! Let's talk about the history of socialist corruption in France, the reasons why the IRA exists, the drug problems in Europe.

Just look at the links you socialists have been posting! You call this enlightenment!?
http://www.cactus48.com/truth.html
This link was posted by one of you retards to "enlighten" ignorant Americans. The author starts with this:
"This paper outlines the history of Palestine to show how this process occurred and what a moral solution to the region's problems should consist of. If you care about the people of the Middle East, Jewish and Arab, you owe it to yourself to read this account of the other side of the historical record."

Then he immediately jumps into attacking the Zionist "lie":
"The problem with this explanation is that it is simply not true, as the documentary evidence in this booklet will show. What really happened was that the Zionist movement, from the beginning, looked forward to a practically complete dispossession of the indigenous Arab population so that Israel could be a wholly Jewish state, or as much as was possible."

I don't know about you ignorant fuckers, but when I read an author say something like that, I immediately think BIASED ANTI-SEMITE! Do you think the answer is that easy!? Do you think it is so one-sided!? If so, WOW!

Europe is almost completely left-wing. You could almost call it a one-party continent! How can you all pretend like you're so educated when your media, peers and even political system are geared towards the left-wing? Europeans are indoctrinated to criticize America from birth. My parents were indoctrinated in the same way in the Middle East. I work with several Europeans from France, Germany and the UK and you'd be amazed at how much anti-US history that they've memorized. Then again, if you ask them about South America, Asia, the Middle East, etc, they don't know jack shit! That's because Europeans devote themselves to studying US history and picking apart its greatness. You all claim that we need to cool down and consider what we're doing? Did we attack immediately? NO! We waited quite a while! I'm sure you'd all like to see the US leave the political scene so you can then complain about our indifference to the suffering in the world. Who attacks a country at also drops food from the sky on the refugees? Germany? Did you do that for the Jews? Yeah, I thought so. Hey, Brits, I'm sure your country has no history in Afghanistan, right? hehe I was just reading this article on the rise of European Xenophobia:
http://slate.msn.com/?id=2064776

Bravo, Europe, you are a model for America! I go to UC Berkeley, which is probably the most liberal place on the planet. It's prolly the heart of the anti-America movement in the US. I've seen a lot of criticism, but no solutions. Let's start to hear criticism of Europeans or REAL solutions to what America should have done. Perhaps Europeans are claiming that they are beyond criticism? Are your crimes so old that we should now forget about them? I think you should be happy that most Americans don't fixate on your countries like you fixate on us. If we did, we might just all sling some mud your way.

[d4n13l]

I don't know about you ignorant fuckers, but when I read an author say something like that, I immediately think BIASED ANTI-SEMITE! Do you think the answer is that easy!? Do you think it is so one-sided!? If so, WOW!

Anti-semite Jews; that is rather peculiar. Did you not notice that the article was written by Jews?

If you read a little further you would have come across this:

One further point: being Jewish ourselves, the position we present here is critical of Zionism but is in no way anti-Semitic.

[resnullius]

Lets get a little history straigh here the UN was never imposed on the US it's actually one of it's founders... and the us did not wait b4 attacking the only wait was actually being able to pin it on bin laden and make unreasonnable demands on the afgan government. BTW garibaldo i knew this thread would eventually pop up again but i expected a bit more time b4 it did as respect for the Canadians bombed by a US pilot in afganistan.

[garibaldo]

The fact that they are Jews does not make it an acceptable arguement to base your opinion off. You didn't address my criticism of your choice of books to read to "develop" your point of view. I think THAT is more to the point. The demands of the US were to turn over the terrorists! What is unreasonable about that? How can you talk about their government like it had a right to even be in power? How can a government that oppresses women and is completely funded off of a drug trade make demands up on us? The government was pro-Bin Laden, that's why they didn't give him to us. It's not because our demands were unreasonable. Are you really defending the Taliban? Post-modern multiculturalism may indoctrinate you to believe that we are just another side of the same coin and that all cultures have a right to do whatever they want, but that's just BS. Certain things should be universal. Stop defending these disgusting fundamentalists and take a good look at yourself and the reasons you always take the anti-US stance. Also, the UN may have been partially started by US, but it's obvious that it reflects the anti-US opinions of the non-American constituents too since they have a vote. It is very Pro-Palestine oriented, which clashes directly with our current administration's pro-Israel stance. So, we are a part of the UN, but that does not mean that our views are similar, but it DOES necessarily mean that the UN's views will gain more and more leverage over the US as its power grows.

[MOVIEGEEK]

resnullius,
I too wished this thread would end.Although the death of your troops was a
tragic accident,the U.S. has lost many to friendly fire as well.In the Gulf War most coalition deaths were due to friendly fire.

[resnullius]

listen garibaldo, you may disagree with their practices but that does not make them have less the right to demand from the US proof of the allegations b4 giving the presumed(at that point) terrorist. The US refused to give it. All proff we have seen would not have been obtain prior to the invasion. All though i don't agree with their practices they had a right to their beliefs (if i'm correct it a right that even the american constitution protects).

[garibaldo]

Yes, I remember the Taliban asking for proof of OBL's crimes. Who could take such a request seriously? Here was a regime that summarily massacres thousands of the local people, publicly executes those suspected of adultery and homosexuality and prohibits women from working outside the home, suddenly playing the part of international human-rights lawyers. Most in the "show me the evidence" crowd don't publicly question the validity of an American response; they simply say the U.S. should wait until it knows for certain that bin Laden was behind the atrocities. They claim their demands are simple: the U.S. merely has to finish its investigation into the deadliest and most complex crime ever committed on American soil, gather incontrovertible evidence of bin Laden's guilt, and then make all of that available to the public. Then, and only then, the Administration can start talking about retaliation. Is that too much to ask? The anti-American leftists know the answer already. Their aim is to raise the threshold for American action to unattainable heights. Such a position may be legally defensible; but it is also willfully naive, strategically uninformed and immoral. In the real world, waiting for proof can also be an immoral act. One of the most common excuses made by the U.S. for not intervening to stop the Rwandan genocide was the lack of conclusive proof against the Hutu government; by the time the West felt it had enough evidence, 800,000 Tutsis were dead. In cases where the U.S. has intervened, the government was not always aware the full guilt of their enemies. American leaders did not have credible knowlege of the Holocaust until well after it declared war on Germany.
The worst of the anti-Americans said the Administration was rushing to judgment to satisfy a bloodthirsty American public. Wrong again. The Administration rushed to judgment to prevent 6,000 more innocents from dying in another attack. If, as the anti-retaliationists would have it, the U.S. were to wait until it could prove a case against bin Laden in court, it is certain that al-Qaeda, or some other terror network, would strike in the meantime. We've indicted bin Laden in the past, placing our faith in international law and trusting that an immoral and murderous Taliban regime would turn him over. We got September 11 instead. Some leftists claim that we should bring him to an International Court and present our evidence. How bin Laden can be apprehended without resorting to military force doesn't seem to be an issue. But bin Laden's arrest isn't the point. Justice isn't the point. Proof isn't the point. Portraying the United States as reckless and cruel, condemning its actions as premature and ill-considered, stoking the resentments of America's enemies no matter how Washington chooses to retaliate — that is the true aim of the anti-American left. There is now conclusive evidence that Osama Bin Laden is behind the attacks. We didn't just GUESS that he played a role in this right after it happened. We had the evidence and we DID present that evidence to all 18 of our NATO allies and we received confirmation that he was guilty by 18 of our allies! Are we going to pretend that this is a massive worldwide conspiracy against the Taliban or are we going to be realistic? You think the Taliban's "beliefs" are protected under our constitution? What planet are you from? If I believe that public executions of homosexuals, funding of terrorist networks and the enslavement of women is right, that's one thing. If I act on those beliefs, that is a VERY different thing. These are not just cultural differences or a case of ethnocentrism. What their regime has been doing cannot be justifiably defended.

[resnullius]

First off, if they TRULY had evidence they ould have presented it to the taliban and the world not only to their allies. And if you want to go at it from a moral stand point... Your president and his friends protect the oil industry which we have conclusive and undisputable and PUBLIC proof that it destroys the environment and our healths, therefore by your reasoning we should not give them a trial we should deny them any rights to defend themselves and attack... oh what a wonderfull world...

[garibaldo]

First off, if they TRULY had evidence they ould have presented it to the taliban and the world not only to their allies. And if you want to go at it from a moral stand point... Your president and his friends protect the oil industry which we have conclusive and undisputable and PUBLIC proof that it destroys the environment and our healths, therefore by your reasoning we should not give them a trial we should deny them any rights to defend themselves and attack... oh what a wonderfull world...

Wow, your arguement has really turned into a steaming pile of crap. I want everyone who is seeing this to witness how a left wing idealogue draws comparisons between the oil industry and terrorists who kill thousands of people in cold, heartless acts of violence. Could it not be possible that certain pieces of information are best kept out of the public domain? If the evidence we had against them was printed in every newspaper, then that information would tell the terrorists exactly how much we know about their operations. What kind of investigation could we mount on criminals if the evidence poured into the media when we receive it!? Also, by making this arguement you are acknowledging that 18 our allies confirming this evidence is not enough to convince you of its validity. If you look at my previous arguement about how the left will raise the threshold for American action to unattainable heights, you'll notice how you are doing exactly that. Reasonable people who don't believe in massive conspiracies (without definitive proof) will accept the accordance of 18 nations. Unreasonable people who have an agenda against the US will deny even the most conclusive proof till the bitter end. Also, I love how the left villifies big oil yet continues to drive cars and buy manufactured products. Did you think oil was only used in cars!? Please lefties, ban all oil-related products before you take a stab at the oil industry. Otherwise, you're just hypocrites, taking full advantage of the system and contributing to its power while pretending to hate it. You completely missed my arguement. Please turn make the oil industry and everyone related to it into devils. The last I checked, solar power and hydroelectric power are still not viable alternatives to fossil fuels. It's not because our government has held back the development of those technologies, it is because the technology itself can't meet those needs. The reason we should not have gone through the process of negotiating with the Taliban was because they would have continued to attack us in the meantime. Why do you think I gave the examples of the genocides we could have stopped if we acted immediately? Are you really this dense or are you just ignoring my arguement because you can't come up with a valid counterarguement? I think it's the latter.

[resnullius]

Actually i don't have a car nor a drivers licence(i used to have one) i try to avoid unnecessary plastics, and no your government has not stopped or even slowed progress in the electrical car development(can the same be said about oil companies? B4 you answer that you might want to check the patent office and see how many are owned for the electrical car by oil companies). And as to accepting proof that was not even shown to those concerned, it's like saying i've got proof that you killed someone. I won't show you the proof 'cause i don't want you to know how i got it but i'll show it to my 18 friends here and they will confirm it's proof and now present yourself to the nearest prison. Would you present yourself to the nearest prison? i know i wouldn't even had i done it i'd insist on a trial or at LEAST to see the proof. And you can't say the Talibans were attacking you. They did'nt attack you did. Al quieda attacked they US but they do not represent the taliban. They are not the political branch of al-quieda as is the case with the IRA and the sien fien(sorry for the spelling)
And as long as your giving examples of massacres done in which the us have refused to do anything maybe we could talk about isreal not letting the UN check the refugee camps and Isreal knowing it can refuse because the US wont side with the UN on this?
And unless i don't remember my history right, the reason the us did go to ww2 is not because they suddenly had proof of a genocide (how does pearl harbour getting bombed sound?)

[jeex]

goddamn. did someone watch the vh1 special or something? jesus ******* lameasses

[garibaldo]

Actually i don't have a car nor a drivers licence(i used to have one) i try to avoid unnecessary plastics, and no your government has not stopped or even slowed progress in the electrical car development(can the same be said about oil companies? B4 you answer that you might want to check the patent office and see how many are owned for the electrical car by oil companies). And as to accepting proof that was not even shown to those concerned, it's like saying i've got proof that you killed someone. I won't show you the proof 'cause i don't want you to know how i got it but i'll show it to my 18 friends here and they will confirm it's proof and now present yourself to the nearest prison. Would you present yourself to the nearest prison? i know i wouldn't even had i done it i'd insist on a trial or at LEAST to see the proof. And you can't say the Talibans were attacking you. They did'nt attack you did. Al quieda attacked they US but they do not represent the taliban. They are not the political branch of al-quieda as is the case with the IRA and the sien fien(sorry for the spelling)
And as long as your giving examples of massacres done in which the us have refused to do anything maybe we could talk about isreal not letting the UN check the refugee camps and Isreal knowing it can refuse because the US wont side with the UN on this?
And unless i don't remember my history right, the reason the us did go to ww2 is not because they suddenly had proof of a genocide (how does pearl harbour getting bombed sound?)

Are you actually trying to make the claim that you "gave up" your car to avoid contributing to the oil industries? Please say yes, because I can use a good laugh. You can pretend to cut down on manufactured goods, but the fact that you buy them AT ALL supports the oil industry. The entire western world is currently dependent on a fossil fuel economy. Anything the state does comes about as a result of taxes, which come from businesses which often deal with oil in one way or another. So, even if you think you are doing your small part in "changing the world", you still actively indulge in the excesses of a society whose wealth is based on fossil fuels! I don't even understand what you're saying about electric cars? Where do you think electricity comes from? Windmills!? A huge percentage of our power plants use oil, natural gas and coal for their fuel. That's where most of our electricity comes from so electric vehicles are not actually circumventing the problems of a fossil fuel economy.

We shouldn't have to show proof to those who are concerned when they are immediately threatening our lives. If a criminal commits a crime and flees, do the police have to find him, present the evidence, talk it over for months on end to see if they can convince him to put down his weapons and come with them for a trial? NO! They shoot to kill because THEY know that he is a killer. You don't need to convince the criminal of the crime he has committed. I can't believe how naive you are about the relationship between Al Qaeda and the Taliban. You think of them as two disparate elements when in reality they are like brothers. Bin Laden helped to prop up the Taliban regime and allowed them to rule Afghanistan and in return the Taliban allowed Bin Laden to run his terrorist training camps in the safe haven of their country. Why are you trying to change the subject to blaming the US for not intervening in the Israel-Palestine conflict in favor of Palestine? The last time I checked, the US did not have enough power to stop the UN from doing anything on its own. Why doesn't Europe do something about it if they are so concerned? Why is it always our role? Do you have no power? Or do you not care? It's not like this is a one-sided massacre of the Palestine. The Palestines have blown up hundreds of Israelis and held that country in a grip of fear. It is nothing like my examples of genocide because this is not about JUST one side attacking another. Why don't you offer some evidence showing that the UN can't enter Israel because the US is stopping it.

"And unless i don't remember my history right, the reason the us did go to ww2 is not because they suddenly had proof of a genocide (how does pearl harbour getting bombed sound?"

I used that example to point out that if the situation had arisen where we did know about the full extent of the genocides taking place in Germany, we would have been best suited to do something about it rather than take diplomatic measures like you would suggest and prolong the extent of the massacre. Again, you continue to twist my arguements and ignore the main point. Then again, I never expected dense, brainwashed eurocentric lefties to be able to think outside of their box.

[resnullius]

Actually as to the fossil fuel electricity, hydroelecticity and nuclear are the only 2 sources of electricity used where i live (not the whole country, just where i live). I didn't give up my car for ecological reasons but i refuse to get another for those reasons at least untill i can afford a car that has the dual energy thing to reduce my fossil fuel consumption. I might no be able to change the world but at least I try.
You can't honestly say the US where trying to protect themselves by invading over there. to use your own example, the police cannot shoot even a killer, if he is not threatening the immediate health of someone, they can arrest him, but they cannot shoot him. There is a term for those who give themselves justice that's vigilanteism.
I find it rather funny that you say i twist your arguments and start insulting me when you can't find a counter argument... By the way i'm not europeen.

[menace]

so how about them vcd's? I hear they can get 120mins on those things these days...

For no politics being discussed , this one sure got some legs eh friends?

My two cents--as far as governments are concerned, they are all corrupt at one level or another--NO exceptions 1st world or third. What matters is the moral compass of the citizens that inhabit these countries. I've been around and have met polite people in the worst shit holes (farmer in the fileds in the dominic republic--not the tourist part)and have met real ******** in the very nice places (a lawyer from georgia on a cruise ship-- what an ass)

Arguing about politics has very limited use unless you intend to fundamentally change the system, otherwsie you just alienate people who might help you burn a really wicked VCD Never talk to strangers about politcs or religion--They are both belief systems that are based on faith and people tend to feel very strongly about that.

Now for the flaming to begin....

[resnullius]

You know menace i tend to agree with you but i like arguing to much to stop. I once tried to provoke an argument with a politician friend of the familly by telling him all polititians were corrupt liars, he agreed but then i got my argument but with my mother about calling our guests corrupt liars
Some might choose to no longer help me after such arguments but i wont.