New Video and Capture Card Confusion

[vhelp]

@ jagabo, i feel bad for you and that agc issue. that demo is sad indeed. Maybe someone will come up with a cure soon.

The AGC issue sounds like a good challenge thing though.

I did want to get one of the ATI 650 or 750 cards, pci and pci-e, but I got so confused at the many different models out there on the google searches, the pictures seem inconsistant to what some of the members are posting that none of it make any sense to me. I see some labeled ATI Theater and others ATI 750, and so on. Then I seel large boxes and small cigarette size boxes. Everything is just too inconsistant with the pictures vs the links vs what some of the members are describing (model names-wises) that I can't rely on what is given anymore.

But there are still other options. I am always testing new cards because it is more a hobby than anything else, plus I sometimes like the challenges it offers when working out problem(s) and such, so I've tested many cards, from pci to dv to usb2.

So far, I have never seen any card produce as clean an (avi) video then the advc-100, it is just very clean. But, it suffer badly when used with commercial tapes which is mostly what I have. Also, it suffer from (DV) macroblocks (despite the very high bitrate, 25kbits it intails) a similar problem as MPEG-2 encoded video, even when encoded at high bitrates, ie 9kbts or even 15kbts.

I did try the $49 Roxio (VHS to DVD) but didn't like it so much. I don't know.

But so far, my best analog capture card has been my Pinnacle Studio AV/DV pci. For the vhs tapes I threw at it, it provided the cleanest when composite was used on commercial tapes. Its been my best card for many years. But I was looking for something even better, and have tested many since. I still have it in my computer along side my hvr-2250 card. But I want a usb2 as a replacment if not, permanent. So i've been testing different usb2 cards also, the lastest one tested is next.

I am currently testing the Hauppauge Wintv-HVR-950Q usb2 card. After my initial searches on this card, I could not find anything detail wise. So i went and purchased it a few weeks ago and tested it when i found the time to do a few. This device just worked right out of the box. In the initial install, I chose not to install the wintv software, only the hvr-950Q drivers, reboot, then, after xp home restarts, and you are at a comfortable screen, I connected the usb to hvr-950q. Then, it proceeded to looks for some drivers and installed them, then I restared. I always go this extra mile so that in case of an unexpected crash, I don't loose any driver stability. Then, I disconnected the usb, shot down, and then rebooted, got to a comfortable screen, and then connected the device. Then, I launched virtualdub: menu\Video\ and select wintv hvr-950 capture (directshow) and then menu\video\video source\video svideo. The 950q capture format is UYVY, unlike the usual YUY2 in other cards. So, make sure you set your software to that format in your cap app and then proceed to set the resolution, else you'll get the dreaded locked 320x240 capture. You do this for any type of capture card, that usually solves the 320x240 issue--like the one you are having now. Anyway.

AGC, no issues that I could find. Not like Jagabo's demo clip, definately not. So, that is a plus.

But, like most cards, the color seems a bit out of spec. It just seems a tad bit brighter, or else the contrast is off spec just a little, something like that. I did not test with any scopes--i don't have any of that soft on my system. maybe later i'll post a few screen shots and someone w/ scopes can measure them for me.

The one good thing it has is the s-video filter, but the composite has some minor problems like dot crowl. I was surprised because hauppague switched chipset vendors and went with the new latest greatest, au8522 modulator, a bigger chip which explains the heat it puts out in such a small encloser.

The other good thing I found is that it locks onto the video and stops the wiggles in vhs, very similar to the advc locking feature, and when you capture bars with lines in them, they are very stright, but for clean (noiseless) captures from vcr's you should use the s-video from it. Composite is good also, but when vhs, it has a wierd dot crawl like pattern. Its not you usual check board pattern. This one is more streaking. However, after a few test encodes (x264) and good bitrate, I didn't find it to be any trouble. I was actually using this wierd pattern as a gauge when aiming for complete pixel detail during encodes, but thats another story.

The audio and video sync, seems to be ok most of the times but I have seen the audio drift before or after, but haven't nailed the exact cause other than it is probably related to my slow computer.

I am currently still using the card as I write this. To get an accurate and honest review you have to put the device through your usual daily activty. So i can't really say when i will be complete with this unit.

I can post a actual image of a capture from my satelite if someone wants to compare it to something of theirs that is currently airing on tv or later.

This card you can always pick up at best buy. They always have them, right next to the hvr-1600 and hvr-2250. Its sells for $77, but I got on sale for $69 the other week.

My next test card will probably be one of those Pinnacle usa2 boxes. There are two major models, one black and the lessor, white. There is also a smaller (white) version, but that is not the one I am talking about here.

-vhelp 5437

[Brad]

I bought the ATI TV Wonder 600 USB2 device that lordsmurf and some others recommend. I think whatever chip it uses is prior to the AGC issues, but I haven't done any thorough tests. Unfortunately it also doesn't have the nice 3D comb filter that the new chip has... I plan to compare it to my AIW 9800 and the other capture cards I own but I'm still hoping someone can send me those Ice Age clips everyone used to compare DVD recorders. I think the 9800 used the same chip as your 9600?

[jagabo]

I'm still hoping someone can send me those Ice Age clips everyone used to compare DVD recorders.

I think this is the clip you're looking for. I believe it came from the (now dead) link in this post:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/232830-Test-of-various-VCRs-Image-Quality-from-VHS-...%28Big-Pics%29

[usually_quiet]

I bought the ATI TV Wonder 600 USB2 device that lordsmurf and some others recommend. I think whatever chip it uses is prior to the AGC issues, but I haven't done any thorough tests. Unfortunately it also doesn't have the nice 3D comb filter that the new chip has... I plan to compare it to my AIW 9800 and the other capture cards I own but I'm still hoping someone can send me those Ice Age clips everyone used to compare DVD recorders. I think the 9800 used the same chip as your 9600?

The specs say the ATI TV Wonder HD 600 USB has an automatic gain control feature. http://www.amd.com/us/products/pctv/tv-wonder-tuners/Pages/tv-wonder-product-matrix.aspx Perhaps the automatic gain control for the ATI TV Wonder HD 600 USB behaves better than the one in the Theater 650 and Theater 750 chips.

[Edit]I noticed that the ATI TV Wonder 200 series card has automatic gain control as well. I think the Theater 200 is the same chip in the AIW Radeon 9600 and AIW Radeon 9800 cards, so perhaps the feature was poorly implemented in only some ATI products. The ATI TV Wonder HD 600 devices might work out for the OP, although they don't include noise reduction, edge enhancement or 3D comb filters like the Theater 650 and Theater 750 based products. The PCI-e version provides QAM tuning but for some reason the USB version doesn't.

Perhaps a Theater 600 device would suit him for analog tuning and capture, but something with a newer digital-only tuner could be used for digital TV for better reception.

[BrainStorm69]

Why is it you are retiring your AIW card? For what you want to do, I agree there is nothing better. SFAIK there is no video soap on newer cards.

I almost bought a new AGP mobo just to keep mine going, but the old board is still cranking along. Tried a Hauppage card, not even close and their software absolutely blows. MMC has its quirks but does the job with lots of options.

I will be sad when my AIW finally dies, this is my fourth ATI capture card and they just don't make'em like that anymore.

From everything I read about capture devices these days, I agree with Nelson37. Just use your current guts (including your ATI AIW card) to make a dedicated computer for capturing using WinXP.

[vhelp]

And I agree with BrainStorm69. Make a dedicated computer for capturing video, 1TB for capture files, another for editing / encoding, and maybe one more for the final finished clips. That is the reason why I am testing as many usb2 type capture devices, because I want to set up a dedicated pc or perhaps a netbook or notebook pc, once I decide. I'll be testing the Pinnacle and then the ATI 650/750, just not sure. But I want to finally decide on the best usb2 type card.

-vhelp 5439

[Brad]

I think this is the clip you're looking for.

Yep, thanks! Now to gather together the three different computers I have to use to try the cards.

[Robet G.]

Thanks to all you guys who replied. I did think of a dedicated PC for capturing but the be all end all is nothing lasts forever and the AIW is going to die sometime, so I've just put off the problem and not solved it. The 600 does indeed have AGC disease, the 3650 AIW suffers from it and is older(i think) as it uses the 600 chip also. I did lean toward the Pinnacle AV/AD but the question is to find one. The Pinnacle Movieboard HD looks like the same board but I cannot confirm this yet. If anyone has used the AV/AD or Movieboard HD if you can post the low-down on the performance, that would be great. It's just a shame that MMC cannot be used with other TV cards. It's a great tool.

Thanks at jagabo for the test patterns

[Brad]

The 600 does indeed have AGC disease, the 3650 AIW suffers from it and is older(i think) as it uses the 600 chip also.

The 3650 uses the Theatre 650 chip (go figure). So is there a good test to try? I still haven't seen any AGC issue with the 600 but I haven't hooked up a VCR yet. I was a bit surprised that Macrovision from a DVD caused no brightness fluctuations and instead triggered picture breakups in random intervals.

[usually_quiet]

A lot of TV cards that capture include automatic gain control, even your AIW 9600. (It has a Theater 200 chip, which includes automatic gain control.) However, other manufacturers may not list it as a feature, while ATI does.

Problems only arise when the automatic gain control is badly designed or badly calibrated, as is the case in some of ATI's products (and some of Hauppauge's too, from what I understand). I think the Theater 600 chip was introduced just prior to the Theater 650 chip, and they are different designs, so the Theater 600's automatic gain control could work properly. vaporeon800 seems to think it does.

[Brad]

Hooked up a VCR and picked a suitably horrible VHS tape to try with the ATI TV Wonder 600 USB. An SLP/EP mode copy of a retail Carebears movie that must have been recorded around 1990 (I'm not the one who made it). Watched 10 mins before I got bored. Brightness and contrast both totally stable. Chroma kept dropping to say 50% saturation and back at times. Hooked up to my HDTV and chroma was stable. Possibly remnants of Macrovision?

Played a better tape, recorded off cable in 2001 in SP. Brightness, contrast, colour all solid.