Is my ATI TV Wonder 650 damaged, or did I just pick a bad test tape?

[Mini-Me]

I bought an ATI TV Wonder 650 USB a while ago as part of my VHS to DVD transfer workflow. Unfortunately, I've had a LOT of issues getting it up and running. It's been an odyssey.*

I still have one remaining issue, which has cropped up repeatedly throughout my ordeal whenever I was actually able to get a signal. Whenever I try to capture from my particular test tape, I still get periodic NASTY noise, i.e. bright pink and green static all over the image, accompanied by nasty sound artifacts. For the longest time, I thought this was indicative of malfunctioning hardware or driver issues. Among my other problems, this is what prompted me to cycle through the available drivers, oh, about thirty times. After all that though, I think I might have figured out this problem too. You see, my test tape is...
<drumroll>
The Lion King.

I really just want to copy home movies to DVD, but I recently bought a Panasonic AG-1980 for this project, and I wanted to use a commercial tape first...in case the VCR decided to start gnawing on the tape. Then I sent the VCR into the shop to fix barber poling issues and got it back the other day after an excruciating wait of months...and continued using The Lion King, just in case. After searching through the forum though, it seems like I'm not the only person who has trouble with this tape. In fact, it might possibly be the worst test tape I possibly could have picked...but I want to be sure, and that's why I'm asking here.

I have now tried a few other tapes, including home movies and another commercial movie, and none of them so far have exhibited this issue except for The Lion King. However, before I decide the capture card is actually in working order and get on with my VHS->DVD project, I have to ask: Is it NORMAL for a capture card to periodically capture nasty neon noise (mostly pink and green) and squeaky audio with The Lion King? Can anyone else confirm they get the same result? That is to say, is it just due to the copy protection it uses? Or, is there actually a malfunction with my capture card that so far is only showing itself on this tape? Note again that I have an AG-1980 with the TBC on, so I'm not sure whether this particular TBC should be defeating the copy protection or not.

__________________________________________________ ____
*In case anyone finds my suffering amusing or has similar troubles with their TV Wonder 650 USB, I'll elaborate:
First, I had an issue where the signal kept cutting out, and it turned out the plastic case was blocking my A/V cables from fully connecting...so I fixed that by trimming some extraneous plastic from the cables.

After isolating that stupid little problem, I still had to figure the other ones out. For instance, there should be about three drivers I can use:

• The ones from 2007 on the CD ATI included. These (and these alone) include Catalyst Media Center. I could use CMC to get a signal with these, but I can't record to AVI with it, and these drivers only worked with VirtualDub once (and no other programs). Every other time, trying to capture crashed VirtualDub and made it unkillable, forcing a Windows restart. (I can't install these drivers anymore anyway, or at least not CMC, since the installation CD's setup program has been hanging near the end.)
• Version 6.14.10.283 from 5/14/2008, which Windows XP installs if you let it search online. These don't come with CMC, and they didn't seem to work with anything for the longest time. Plus, the most recent time I installed them today, Windows said the device was malfunctioning...but after it cooled down, I got it working with VirtualDub.
• Version 9.7 from 8/16/2009 (the most recent ones on the AMD/ATI website). These come without CMC, and they just give a black screen with no audio in VirtualDub. They won't work with any other software either, even though Windows says the device is working properly.

Right now, I'm using the only ones that seem to work at all...the ones that Windows XP installs from the net. After fiddling with this on and off for a couple months, I can finally get a signal in VirtualDub whenever I want, without it crashing and becoming unkillable. So far, so good...I think.

[danno78]

Your card is fine. The problem is Macrovision with commercial tapes. Even with home tapes Macrovison is behind the problem because unstable synch triggers Macrovison circuit in order to prevent copy/backup. You need a external full frame TBC to clean synchronization signals and remove Macrovision or other capture card less sensitive. TBC function from Panasonic VCR don`t deafeat the copy protection but with home tape the Panasonic AG1980 should be enough. When Macrovison signal is detected by ATI card snow/noise will apear on screen in order to prevent you to backup commercial tapes.

[jagabo]

My 650 breaks up into total static (both video and audio) with Macrovision protected tapes. It also has an over aggressive automatic gain control on the video, often blowing out bright areas. There's no way to disable the AGC.

I had the same problem with the case keeping my better cables from completely seating! And yes, getting the right combination of drivers and software is a PITA.

[Mini-Me]

Thanks, guys. I thought it might be that, but I had to be sure.

My 650 breaks up into total static (both video and audio) with Macrovision protected tapes. It also has an over aggressive automatic gain control on the video, often blowing out bright areas. There's no way to disable the AGC.

I had the same problem with the case keeping my better cables from completely seating! And yes, getting the right combination of drivers and software is a PITA.

I'm glad to know I wasn't the only one with so many troubles.

You mentioned the automatic gain control blowing out brights and crushing blacks. You also briefly mentioned the same thing when I originally asked what capture device to buy back in July, but your opinion back then was that it shouldn't be a big deal for home VHS sources. Your more recent posts (such as in this thread) seem to indicate that it's more like a dealbreaker though. I've also read that some Canopus devices have a similar problem. At this point, would you suggest a different capture card/box for better all-around VHS transfers?

[jagabo]

You mentioned the automatic gain control blowing out brights and crushing blacks. You also briefly mentioned the same thing when I originally asked what capture device to buy back in July, but your opinion back then was that it shouldn't be a big deal for home VHS sources. Your more recent posts (such as in this thread) seem to indicate that it's more like a dealbreaker though.

Most of my earlier caps were from a DVD player and test patterns. The ATI 650's AGC problem wasn't so bad with that. But in later tests with VHS it was worse. To the point where I really can't recommend it for VHS caps. It's unfortunate because it's a great device otherwise.

At this point, would you suggest a different capture card/box for better all-around VHS transfers?

I don't keep up with SD analog capture cards anymore so I don't know what else to recommend.

[Mini-Me]

Most of my earlier caps were from a DVD player and test patterns. The ATI 650's AGC problem wasn't so bad with that. But in later tests with VHS it was worse. To the point where I really can't recommend it for VHS caps. It's unfortunate because it's a great device otherwise.

I don't keep up with SD analog capture cards anymore so I don't know what else to recommend.

Fortunately (or sadly), it doesn't seem like the available devices have changed much. I noticed from the other thread that you also have a Hauppauge HD PVR (1212 I assume?), and the image looked pretty good to me, if undersaturated (I'm unfamiliar with the source though). I hear the comb filter isn't nearly as good as the ATI's, but are you personally happy with its performance? Between those two at least, which would you rather use?

[jagabo]

I noticed from the other thread that you also have a Hauppauge HD PVR (1212 I assume?), and the image looked pretty good to me, if undersaturated (I'm unfamiliar with the source though).

Yes, I have the 1212. I've used it mostly for HD caps but did test it out on some VHS tapes. The undersaturation was because I couldn't adjust the card's proc amp settings. That machine has had several different capture cards in it, installed, uninstalled, reinstalled, so it's not unusual to find one is messed up on occasion. I probably just need to reinstall the HD PVR drivers. The device ignores macrovision so you can capture commercial VHS tapes with it.

I hear the comb filter isn't nearly as good as the ATI's, but are you personally happy with its performance? Between those two at least, which would you rather use?

Yes, the HD PVR's chroma/luma separation isn't as good as the ATI 650's. It shouldn't be a problem if you're capturing clean s-video. On the other hand, the ATI 650's 3d comb filter isn't as effective on VHS sources. If you plan on doing a lot of filtering and editing after capturing the h.264 encoding of the HD PVR will be harder to work with. I think I still have a few short VHS clips that I can upload if you want to try them out.

[Mini-Me]

Yes, I have the 1212. I've used it mostly for HD caps but did test it out on some VHS tapes. The undersaturation was because I couldn't adjust the card's proc amp settings. That machine has had several different capture cards in it, installed, uninstalled, reinstalled, so it's not unusual to find one is messed up on occasion. I probably just need to reinstall the HD PVR drivers. The device ignores macrovision so you can capture commercial VHS tapes with it.

Considering you've dealt with multiple capture devices, it sounds like your driver hell has been even worse than mine. Speaking of which, was the driver situation as bad for you with the HD PVR as it was with the TV Wonder?

Yes, the HD PVR's chroma/luma separation isn't as good as the ATI 650's. It shouldn't be a problem if you're capturing clean s-video. On the other hand, the ATI 650's 3d comb filter isn't as effective on VHS sources.

Given that I'm using S-Video with an AG-1980, that makes the comb filter mostly redundant anyway, right?

If you plan on doing a lot of filtering and editing after capturing the h.264 encoding of the HD PVR will be harder to work with. I think I still have a few short VHS clips that I can upload if you want to try them out.

I'm thinking the extent of my editing will probably be limited to cutting the video at scene splits, applying Neatvideo, and possibly adjusting levels in software. I don't have any real experience with this yet, but do you think native H.264 would be an issue in that regard? Sorry, I'm just full of questions...

I would definitely appreciate the clips, btw!

[jagabo]

was the driver situation as bad for you with the HD PVR as it was with the TV Wonder?

No, the HD PVR drivers are pretty clean. At least in 32 bit Windows XP, the only place I've used them. I think my problems come from having an old Hauppauge PVR-250 installed at the same time as the HD PVR. The two seem to fight over some registry settings or something.

Given that I'm using S-Video with an AG-1980, that makes the comb filter mostly redundant anyway, right?

Correct. The only time I've had problems with dot crawl from s-video sources has been with s-video that was produced from composite with a cheap converter.

I'm thinking the extent of my editing will probably be limited to cutting the video at scene splits, applying Neatvideo, and possibly adjusting levels in software. I don't have any real experience with this yet, but do you think native H.264 would be an issue in that regard? Sorry, I'm just full of questions...

Noise reduction on h.264 video won't work as well as losslessly compressed video.

I would definitely appreciate the clips, btw!

Attached are a few small clips. I thought I remembered recording this at a higher bitrate but Bitrate Viewer shows only about 5000 kbps. I extracted these from a larger clip with TsSniper.

[Mini-Me]

Thank you for the clips, jagabo, and sorry for taking so long to say it. After some consideration, I decided that they seemed a little on the soft side. That might just be my imagination or part of the source, but in the end, it seems that pretty much every capture device probably has its flaws. Now that I've spent some time with the TV Wonder 650, I do notice its AGC kicking in sometimes, but it doesn't really bother me given I'm capturing home movies that were never filmed under controlled or artistically directed lighting anyway. Judging by the waveforms in colortools, the clipping in my sources seems to be pretty minor, and I've adjusted the TV Wonder's proc amp's brightness and contrast to perfectly capture what's left of the full range and map it to luma 16-235. (The appropriate brightness and contrast settings interestingly seem to be the same for every single tape I've played so far.)

All things considered, what's important is that I'm much happier with the results I'm getting than with what my VHS/DVD combo deck can deliver. The AG-1980's picture is much better than the cheap VCR, Neatvideo cleans up the image and reduces the potential for compression artifacts later, HCEnc is better than my combo unit's hardware encoder, and the AGC really isn't getting in the way that much. (Plus, this way I can keep my movies as computer files too instead of just DVD's.) At this point, I really can't justify tossing around more money, time, and stress to test out other capture devices, because I think I'd be coming to the point of diminishing returns anyway. If I did decide to start buying more hardware, I'd probably go for a full-frame TBC instead, and so far I haven't seen the kind of problems that would justify that either (fingers crossed...). Instead, I think it's wiser to just move forward with the hardware I have on hand and actually get something done for once instead of sitting around agonizing over it.

[jagabo]

Thank you for the clips... they seemed a little on the soft side

They were from a VHS tape playing on an old inexpensive VHS deck so you wouldn't expect them to be very sharp. When I made that recording the HD PVR's proc amp wasn't working. I think the sharpness setting was stuck at 2 (out of a range of about -7 to +7). Increasing the sharpness probably would just have enhanced the noise though.

Did you see this comparison I did a while back?:

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/326560-Which-is-better-usb-stick-vhs-cap-or-hd-pvr-...=1#post2023227

If you increase the contrast/brightness of the HD PVR image the sharpness is a little shy of the ATI 650.

Someone also did this comparison of mostly ATI capture cards yesterday:

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/329016-2001-2010-my-capture-cards-comparison-screen...=1#post2038006

He was using a DVD as source. You can find the test file he used (burned to DVD) here:

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/328439-New-Video-and-Capture-Card-Confusion?p=20353...=1#post2035392

I may add a few samples to that thread if I get the time.

[lordsmurf]

The card is fine.
The tape is fine.
Read this: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/189455-How-to-address-anti-copy-%28Macrovision%29-errors

That's all you need.

[Mini-Me]

They were from a VHS tape playing on an old inexpensive VHS deck so you wouldn't expect them to be very sharp. When I made that recording the HD PVR's proc amp wasn't working. I think the sharpness setting was stuck at 2 (out of a range of about -7 to +7). Increasing the sharpness probably would just have enhanced the noise though.

Did you see this comparison I did a while back?:

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/326560-Which-is-better-usb-stick-vhs-cap-or-hd-pvr-...=1#post2023227

If you increase the contrast/brightness of the HD PVR image the sharpness is a little shy of the ATI 650.

Actually, I think that thread may have been where I learned about the pesky AGC in the first place. Sharpness issues aside though, trading the TV Wonder 650 for the HD-PVR would be trading AGC issues for compression issues, since the HD-PVR won't capture lossless. I have a quite accurate noise profile going for my camera/VCR/capture card combination now, and any compression artifacts would likely throw that off, in addition to the lossiness in and of itself.

I think the AGC would be unacceptable if I were capturing commercial movies or other tapes with controlled/artistic lighting and frequent shot/angle changes. In that case, the AGC would be kicking in all the time, causing constant annoying brightness changes and regularly clipping the whites and blacks until things evened back out (only to happen again three seconds later with the next scene/shot change or large panning movement). It would significantly detract from shots and prevent them from being viewed the way they were meant to be, and those blatant flaws would be forever baked into my captures.

As it stands though, the AGC has been playing pretty nicely with my home movies so far. Scene changes are infrequent, and I've only seen the AGC noticeably kick in on panning a couple times. One time, the camera moved from ordinary lighting into a very dark bedroom, and the AGC subtly corrected for the exposure there. Then the camera quickly pointed from the bedroom into a brightly lit bathroom, so the previous adjustment blew out highlights like hell for a second. It's not too bad though, because it almost looks more realistic, as though you're actually there and your eyeballs are adjusting. There are a few other momentary blowout instances I can find if I look hard enough. The brightness shift was also jumpy and briefly distracting one time in a two hour video, for a split second, but that's pretty much it. These are home movies, and it seems like the same exposure level was used for most shots, so the AGC honestly does as much to automatically correct for slightly imperfect exposure (without manual levels adjustment for every scene in 236 hours of footage ) as it does to momentarily screw up the levels from time to time. It's not perfect, but it's much more of a mixed bag of good and bad for my sources than it would be for commercial sources, where it would only do harm.

Someone also did this comparison of mostly ATI capture cards yesterday:

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/329016-2001-2010-my-capture-cards-comparison-screen...=1#post2038006

He was using a DVD as source. You can find the test file he used (burned to DVD) here:

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/328439-New-Video-and-Capture-Card-Confusion?p=20353...=1#post2035392

I may add a few samples to that thread if I get the time.

Wow. Yeah, the TV Wonder 600 is significantly underperforming compared to the AIW 9800. That might be worrying, but I get the feeling the 650 is a different beast. For instance, a lot of the 600's deficiencies are from oversharpening, but the capture cards definitely have different proc amps in that regard: The 650 ranges from 0-255 with a default of 128, and the 600 ranges from [apparently] 0 to 15 with a default of 2. The 600 is also missing the 650's 3D comb filter, so that would account for a lot of the chroma artifacts. The most concerning part that might apply to the 650 is the desaturation of the color bars at the bottom (which test chroma resolution, right?), but IIRC I saw a test with the 650 somewhere that didn't have that problem (and unlike the 9800, it has built-in audio capturing). I might end up checking out that test DVD though, just in case. Thanks for the links!

[jagabo]

The most concerning part that might apply to the 650 is the desaturation of the color bars at the bottom (which test chroma resolution, right?), but IIRC I saw a test with the 650 somewhere that didn't have that problem

It doesn't really matter for VHS caps. VHS chroma resolution is something like 40 lines across the entire frame. I posted some samples a while back:

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/319420-Who-uses-a-DVD-recorder-as-a-line-TBC-and-wh...=1#post1980652
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/319420-Who-uses-a-DVD-recorder-as-a-line-TBC-and-wh...=1#post1981589

I agree that the AGC is probabably a good thing for home video VHS caps, even if it does occasionally blow out highlights.

[Mini-Me]

It doesn't really matter for VHS caps. VHS chroma resolution is something like 40 lines across the entire frame. I posted some samples a while back:

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/319420-Who-uses-a-DVD-recorder-as-a-line-TBC-and-wh...=1#post1980652
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/319420-Who-uses-a-DVD-recorder-as-a-line-TBC-and-wh...=1#post1981589

I agree that the AGC is probabably a good thing for home video VHS caps, even if it does occasionally blow out highlights.

You're right, I forgot about the 40 lines of chroma resolution. That's so low it's almost funny. With such low resolution, you'd think we'd be getting a lot more color bleeding than we actually do most of the time.

[Mini-Me]

AH, CRAP. Now I'm getting tapes where the AGC is fluctuating like crazy, and it's seriously detracting from them. Go figure. (Well, it's either that or a Macrovision false positive issue. Any way to conclusively tell the two apart without a TBC?) A pox on the house of ATI for their stupid AGC. That's why I'm buying another, different product, and not from AT...well, okay, it's another ATI product, but it's used, so ATI/AMD aren't getting any money from it at least.

Anyway, I decided to pick up an el-cheapo old school All In Wonder 9600 AGP and see how it does in comparison. It has the same chip as the 9800 that did so well in vaporeon800's test a few days ago. (That said, I just realized that the 9800 had some other flaws: It crops on the left, it couldn't correctly display the box above 6.75 in the second image, and it oversoftens, which is especially apparent comparing the bottom bar in the THX image to the original aliased source.) The upside is that I have a spare box to put this to use in...the downside is that I'll have to retune the proc amp, retune Neatvideo, and be careful about audio sync issues. Plus, actually running Neatvideo and encoding will have to be done on a faster computer, and that means carting over 50 gigs of data for every tape.

[edDV]

Post a sample?

[Mini-Me]

I would, but the scene I'm not sure about is chock full of family members. It may sound a little silly, but I don't feel entirely comfortable putting clips like that up on the net. I'm just a private person, I guess. Thanks for offering to take a look though.

Odds are it's just the AGC again, because the waveforms fluctuate and spread to the white and black levels in the same way. It's just that the camera keeps pointing at and away from the major light source in a dim room, so the levels keep flying up and down. Think of jagabo's clip from the Progressive insurance commercial (in this thread: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/328439-New-Video-and-Capture-Card-Confusion), except imagine it doing that over and over every time the camera points at and away from the light.