Need help with sync problems during processing

[Jon.G]

I am an expert when it comes to dealing with audio, and quite often I make CDs and DVDs from other audio sources. So, I know what I'm doing when I'm sitting at the computer and using these softwares. So I didn't think it would be that big of a deal to take on converting a few VHS tapes to DVD.

I have a USB capture card that I hooked up my VCR to. I couldn't find any clear definitive answer as to what to use to record video, and in the past I ran into issues with different formats and such, there seems to be a lack of standards and compatibility when it comes to video. So, this time around, I ended up playing around with virtualdub, and found that I can record in uncompressed .avi with it, which makes huge files. I have a drive I can devote soley to recording in, so no big deal starting with a huge file. I figure, may as well start this right. I do want to do a little editing, edit out a few things here and there, so going directly to mpeg-2 seemed to not be the best option, as I understand it that's not the best video format for editing. So I figured, I'll record in a huge .avi, do my editing, encode to mpeg-2, burn to dvd, and done.\

Ok, so one thing I wanted to do was to tweak the audio a bit. So I extracted a .wav in sound forge, did some noise reduction, eq, and such, and saved to a .wav.

So, I have Magix Movie Editor Pro 15 on my computer, and I know that allows exporting to mpeg-2, so I bring up my video and audio there. First of all, the thing doesn't read the audio directly on the .avi file correctly at all, it is noisy, has pulses, and is crap. I did record audio to 16 bit 48 kHz since that is standard for DVD. I don't know why Magix has issues reading that audio. But, like I said, I extracted to a .wav, so I didn't need that audio anyways. I mute that audio, pull in my .wav, and they line up perfectly. I do my slight editing, on both video and audio, and everything still lines up perfectly. I export to mpeg-2 video only, and export audio to another .wav, so that I should have an mpeg, and a wav, that should both line up perfectly.

I go to dvd lab pro 2, author a disc, and......I audio and video drift. Partway through the disc, it becomes apparent that the video is a few seconds ahead of the audio. I tried playing around with different authoring programs, same results. I'm fairly certain that Magix is the culprit here, it did not give me two files that line up.

So, I decided to test out tmpegenc. I bring in my video and audio files there, set the encode settings, do my slight editing, and now have an audio and video that seems to be just slightly off. Well, I'm actually not sure. I don't feel like going to the trouble to author another disc in dvd lab pro 2 until I know I have files that will work, I'm getting sick of all this wasted time. But, nothing actually lets me figure anything out definitively. In dvd lab pro 2 I can't preview the audio with the video to verify things are synced. I do have dvd architect which lets me play it, and I found the audio and video to be just slightly off, but I don't know why. Tmpegenc seems to have failed me as well. But, I can't be sure. I tried to pull it into adobe audition so I could try to adjust the audio to line up, but audition won't display the video right, the video is nowhere close to the right time in the session. And vegas won't let me import any of my video files, what the hell video files will it work with? I feel like there is ABSOLUTELY NO STANDARDS AGREED ON WHATSOEVER when it comes to video, I can't do a damn thing with one thing with the other thing, what the f#$@%!? So, I open Magix back up just to see what would happen if I throw in the files I got from tmpegenc into there if that shows them lining up. Well, in Magix, the video and audio are off by more then they are off in dvd architect. So, I have 2 different programs, showing me 2 different things with the same files.

Someone is bullshitting me.

These are digital files, and anything I put them in has a time code on them to make things precise. Yet nothing lines up like it shows me it will.

Someone is bullshitting me.


Is there any software out there that actually does what it's supposed to do? What the hell do I gotta do to get a damn VHS to DVD with video and audio synced up?

[filmboss80]

There are many reasons why there is no "one size fits all" video format. For example, production projects require frame-accurate, low-compression files (which means giant file sizes); distribution formats such as DVD require compressed files to fit certain size and compatibility parameters (harder to edit); and streaming formats demand tons of compression to maintain small file sizes and reasonable internet bandwidth consumption (darn near impossible to edit). This, mind you, is a simplistic explanation just to help you understand.

I believe your problem may start at the very beginning with capture from the VCR to your computer. Despite your long diatribe, you make no mention of your video capturing process, other than to say it is "a USB capture card." Since it is a USB card and not a firewire card, I suspect it might be natively capturing to MPEG-2. You don't mention your capturing software, nor its settings, either.

Be informed, too, that there is a difference between video editing software and DVD authoring software.

Until we know more about your capturing process, it will be difficult to weigh in on the exact issue.

EDIT: Oh, also, "Need help" is not a very good thread topic.

[Jon.G]

Well, it's hard for me to put the finger on just what part of the process I need help with, so....yeah....

I don't think capturing is a problem. Because the source video I recorded in has synced audio and video. So, since the problem comes later, I didn't look at that. But, if you must know, I use an ATI TV Wonder 600 USB for capture. As stated I used virtualdub to capture to AVI. Also, I didn't use the audio in on the capture card, I used 2 inputs on my m-audio 1010lt, which I was able to select as my audio source in virtualdub. Since my recorded in video doesn't show a sync problem, I felt this all to be not part of the problem. When I laid out the avi video and extracted wav in magix, they lined up perfectly throughout. It was the encoded mpeg-2 and the .wav that I exported from magix that don't line up. And then when I tried to use tmpegenc, I once again used the .avi, with the extracted .wav for audio source, which magix show as lining up perfectly, but then don't line up after encoding, which I encoded to have seperate mpeg file and wav file once again.

So, given all this, I think it's an encoding issue. I believe the encoding process is either messing with the speed of the video, or audio. The audio doesn't sound pitched, so I'm leaning towards video.

[hech54]

I'm thinking that you recording in 48khz .wav was a bad idea.

[Jon.G]

48 kHz is standard for dvd. I intend to compress the audio to ac3, which requires 48kHz. 44.1 is standard for CD, but dvd is 48.

[hech54]

48 kHz is standard for dvd. I intend to compress the audio to ac3, which requires 48kHz. 44.1 is standard for CD, but dvd is 48.

I know that...but recording to 48khz .wav doesn't sound right to me. I can't quite put my finger on it though....I could be wrong.

[Moontrash]

with the already out of sync dvd u have, use muxman to de-mux everything

use delaycut to resync the audio u have

remux everything back together

or if u just wanna have a sycned dvd right outta the box...input those avi's into tmpg authoring works...i use it all the time for my MiniDv avi's...worx great....has a great edit function and all that you would need

[DB83]

A few thoughts.

1. The audio should be filtered through the capture device simply to assist video and audio to be synced.
2. You are capturing 'uncompressed'?. Did the capture process report any dropped frames ?
3. Was there not any capture software with the USB unit ?

[DB83]

48 kHz is standard for dvd. I intend to compress the audio to ac3, which requires 48kHz. 44.1 is standard for CD, but dvd is 48.

I know that...but recording to 48khz .wav doesn't sound right to me. I can't quite put my finger on it though....I could be wrong.

48 khz is fine for the audio. Uncompressed PCM is 16 bit 1,536 kbps 48 khz.

Of course, both audio and video should be captured at constant speed.

[intracube]

Processing with 48kHz should be fine. AVI is a container format - what are the actual audio/video codecs being used in the original file? Also, what's the framerate?
mediainfo is a good tool for providing this info. It can also give info about audio/video offset.

[Jon.G]

Using mediaInfo on original .avi:

Container and general information
AVI (Open DML): 117 GiB, 1h 40mn
1 video stream: YUV
1 audio stream: PCM (Microsoft)

First video stream
166Mbps, 720*480 (3:2), at 29.970 fps, YUV (NTSC)

First audio stream
1,536 Kbps, 48.0 KHz, 16 bits, 2 channels, PCM (Microsoft) (Little / Signed)


I didn't wish to use the audio input of the USB card due to it not being of the same quality as my m-audio. I'm very picky and finicky about my audio quality. I don't feel this is an issue due to the fact that when I extracted the .wav to do my tweaking on, that .wav did line up perfectly with the video from the .avi in magix, before encoding.

I don't think extracting from the original dvd and fixing that is an option. The dvd was not off consistently, it started perfect, but slowly got more and more off as the dvd progressed, which is why I don't feel it's an offset, something got messed up in speed when encoding.

I don't wish to bring tmpeg authoring into this, I feel dvd lab pro 2 has proven to be a decent program for authoring, and I feel that I have adequately demonstrated that the problem has come before the authoring stage of the process. Which, probably means I'm in the wrong thread. But I also feel I've determined the problem came into play after capturing, due to the .wav I extracted syncing up perfectly to the .avi video when layed out in magix before exporting. I can't seem to find a program that will properly allow me to take my .avi and .wav that properly sync up, do simple editing, and export to seperate mpeg-2 and .wav files that will also sync up. Also, I believe that my editing is not effecting this. There was a small portion near the beginning of the video I needed to edit out. This is not the point in the dvd where the timing becomes evident, it isn't until much later that you start to notice the audio and video aren't lining up.

The usb card did come with software. But with software that gives me real technical options as capture in good, better, and best modes, I felt a need to obtain software of a more professional level to do my capturing. Plus, I wanted the option of selecting alternate audio inputs, for reasons previously stated.

[DB83]

Well Vdub is hardly software of a 'more professional level'.

Sound quality whether filtered through the capture device or not should be identical that is to say as you read it per bit rate etc. And your capture device will not capture the audio - it will be processed by your sound card.

Sofware wise you need a proper nle. I would not call magix 'proper'. My gut feeling is that your system could not keep up with the uncompressed video when exporting. There should be no need to capture uncompressed - a lossy codec such as huffyuv or lagarith shpuld be sufficient. And even a capture at full dvd quality mpeg2 is more than ample for VHS.

[Jon.G]

Ok, I guess I need the following:

What software would you recommend I use to capture video?
What codec would you recommend I use to capture, which would best allow me to do minor editing on the video before encoding to mpeg-2?
What software would you recommend I use to do minor editing? This would basically be trimming the beginning and end, and maybe editing out a segment here and there.
What software would you recommend I use to encode my edited video to mpeg-2?

Keep in mind I do wish to do tweaking of my audio in this process, using the audio software I am familiar with, which means I do wish to once again extract the .wav from my recorded video, and also be able to edit that .wav along with the .avi, so that I will have a .wav that I can encode to .ac3, and will properly sync up to my mpeg-2.

Thanks to all for the suggestions so far, I do appreciate your time to help me.

[DB83]

I no longer have ATI capture software on my PC so it is difficult to comment on its functionality. However, I would be surprised if it did not have a user-defined mode or the presets could not be tweaked.

I notice that you already have a good nle i.e Vegas and would agree that it, for some reason, does not like uncompressed video. So I come back to the two codecs mentioned above. Vegas has no problem with huffyuv. Have not tested it with lagarith yet I see no reason why it should not. And if you are happy to use vdub for the capturing then ok. And Vegas, as I am sure you know, will export a perfectly good mpeg2 for whatever authoring program you decide upon.

[usually_quiet]

If you want to try MPEG2 capture instead, I think that card uses Catalyst Media Center. If so, video the settings for MPEG-2 capture can be tweaked via "Custom Profiles", although the part of the user interface controlling that is awkward to work with.

Building a capture graph with GraphStudio is another possibility for MPEG-2 capture.

I have done both for my ATI Theater 650 PCI-E card.

Minor trimming can be done with frame-accurate MPEG-2 editors that only re-encode a few frames adjacent to the cuts.

[redwudz]

Jon.G, in the future please use a more descriptive subject title in your posts to allow others to search for similar topics. I will change yours this time. From our rules:

Try to choose a subject that describes your topic.
Please do not use topic subjects like Help me!!! or Problems.

Thanks,
Moderator redwudz

[Moontrash]

i use a hauppauge captrure card for vhs grabs but it captures in mpeg2 format....u can use VideoReDo and it doesn't re-encode any video while u edit the mpeg file u captured with

[Jon.G]

Ok, Thanks to DB83, his suggestions have worked. I recorded in my VHS again, still in virtualdub with m-audio card for audio, this time using the huffyuv codec. Which is not lossy, but lossless. This allowed me to open the file in vegas, and export to mpeg-2, and also export a .wav of the audio, which I then tweaked to my likings in sound forge. I brought everything into dvd lab pro 2, authored, and now have a dvd that stays synced.

So, I guess the tips to be learned in this thread are that recording in completely uncompressed .avi is not the best way, there are lossless codecs that are good and play nicer with software. And Magix is probably not the best software to use for encoding to mpeg-2.

Thanks to everyone that took the time to reply and offer their suggestions, I do appreciate it.

[DB83]

Glad to read that all is fine now. And my humble apologies for messing up the words lossy and lossless.

[Deter]

I just saw this thread, just skimmed on reading it......it is kind of old.......Think you are off based with what you are doing.....

Can solve this problem easy PM my account if you want the answer.......

[Jon.G]

Wow, kinda random for this reply to this thread here.

Why take it to private? I did find a method that did work for me and does work and result in a proper dvd that works. But, if you have more knowledge, and better methods for what I am trying to do, and reasons why doing it differently from what I'm doing, please share. I think you should reply in the thread so others that may come across this thread can read what suggestions you would make. I absolutely hate it when searching for a solution to a problem, I find a forum thread started by someone with the same problem, and doesn't actually list what solved it.

[Deter]

The reason why was because I needed to ask you specific questions about your process and didn't feel like asking them in a forum post that was a few years old. Plus it would be multi questions based on your answers. Didn't feel like doing an entire write up with out knowing what you are doing.....The USB capture in my view is a problem......Plus a few other things that lead to the Audio Video Sync issues......

VHS tape can be 2 to about 7 frames out of sync depending.....But that is with capturing it correct and no dropped frames......

Network Broadcasts can be out of sync by a few frames and your VCR just recorded what was played on the machine way back when.......

The VCR tape can be out of sync

The Audio feed can be messed up on the source recording aka a passthrough device

The VCR can play back out of sync and same with the DVD player or on the PC.

Some of the different TV stations have different Audio/Video sync with the feed.....So the frames can be off and same with stock store purchased VHS tapes......It is a multi layered problem for sure.....

Have seen the same recording of a VHS tape recorded in two different locations from two different cable systems. Not only can the audio be out of sync but the color channels can be 100% different as well.

This is still true today with digital recordings from TV.

Can this be fixed? Yea if you can match up the frames and re-code the video correct......

If it is more complex the sync of the Audio / Video can be really hard to fix, but in general it is normally off by x amount of frames and than you adjust the video to match.

How do u sync it? Well that is the difference between a pro and an amateur......

However if your coding program is creating this problem that is another issue all together......

[Jon.G]

Thank you for pointing out all of these various audio/video sync issues. You know your video like I know my audio, awesome to hear a pro talk about what they know.

The issue I was having though was something in the encoding to mpeg process I believe. The issue was an issue that would gradually increase as the video continued to play, so that partway into it it was noticeably a little bit out of sync, but by the end of the video, it was completely out of sync.

By doing the things I mentioned in my last post where I had got things working, I had found that by using the lossless compression when recording in, I didn't get the sync issue.

However, my final product may still have minor sync issues from the various things you mention. You probably feel about usb video recording devices the same way I feel about onboard sound cards. But, for my purposes, it gets the job done. Clearly I'm doing an amateur job of recording vhs to dvd.

If you do want to see the results, there is a site called demonoid, and somewhere on there is a dvd of a documentary called The WPIX yule log, a log's life. That is the dvd I was creating when these issues came up, so if it can still be obtained there, you could see the final results. Although I don't know if anyone is seeding it, so you may need to ask for a seed if you wanted to check it out.

Anyways, thanks again for sharing all of these things to take into account when trying to go from amateur to pro. Perhaps one of these days I'll look into getting a firewire device, and start learning a bit more.

[DB83]

Deter,

The thread is hardly old. I have seen many that are resurrected after several years.

As the OP states, there are many threads here that never seem to give the answer and by placing your 'Pro' knowledge in a private conversation denies everyone else that knowledge. That is the purpose of an open forum.

Not many of us on here are 'Pro' so we come on here to glean from the knowledge that is posted and assist whenever we can.