Am I being niaive? Creative Vado 3rd Gen and 2 external microphones

[Bobby2222]

Hi all,
I have jsut invested in a Creative Vado 3rd Gen and 2 external microphones (ATR3350 and a shotgun mic) in the hope of getting clear sound. (Previous problems plugging direct to laptop for audio recording were terrible hiss even when totally quiet surroundings - I now realise that is because of the bad sound card in my laptop) I bought this Vado and ext mic to take the laptop out of the equation - and I am gettting the same thing - is it called background noise? The room is dead quiet - this is from the video camera itself - Qu:1 - Are all cameras the same ? Qu:2 - Have I bought a dud Vado that needs to be returned perhaps - or - Qu:3 - Am I missing some pearl of newbie knowledge that will sort all this out.
I just want to make nice informative videos and have decent sound on them and not an amateur buzz/hiss/whatever on then.
All help greatly appreciated. (As funds allow I am going to seriously upgrade all these things including the computer but to get there, I need to get this setup to work amply)
Bobby

[Bobby2222]

Oh P.S......
The sound is the same using the in built Vado mic and all these results have been from playing back on the Vado - so the laptop is not the issue in this case. Further, as this is the first camcorder I have bought, I wonder if they all do that - they just don't all seem to do that on YouTube.
Bobby

[jagabo]

The mic needs to be as close to the speaker as possible. This is why you always see a microphone in the speaker's face at live on-the-street interviews, or a lapel mic and boom mic in talk shows.

Remember, the sound level decrease as a square of the distance from the source. A microphone that's 1 foot away from the speaker recieves 36 times the signal as a mic 6 feet away.

[Bobby2222]

Thanks Jagabo,
As a newbie to all this that is valuable information and I appreciate it.
With this problem however it does not matter where I place the mic (they are both condensers aswell) - even if I just place the camera in a totally quiet room and say nothign , there is still this incessant hissy noise - like a white noise - on the film/audio.
I do appreciate your answer though and shall remember that for the future.
Thank you.
Bobby

[jagabo]

With this problem however it does not matter where I place the mic (they are both condensers aswell) - even if I just place the camera in a totally quiet room and say nothign , there is still this incessant hissy noise - like a white noise - on the film/audio.

Yes, since there is no "real" sound the automatic gain for the microphone is cranking way up. So the background hiss (all microphones have this from the random motion of air molecules hitting the diaphragm) is getting very loud. If someone is speaking and close mic'd the automatic gain won't crank so high and the hiss will be at a lower level.

Note, this is a separate issue from the camcorder's internal mic picking up motor noise from the camera. Getting the mic off and away from the camera reduces that (again because the volume decreases with the square of the distance between the mic and the camera, and because the body of the camcorder can carry noise directly from the motor to the mic). Now you need to get the mic close to the speaker to get a high signal to noise ratio at the microphone.

[minidv2dvd]

a prosumer level cam would have manually adjustable audio levels so the automatic "gain" hiss from mic not picking anything up wouldn't happen. you can use filters or just lower the audio level in an editor. maybe try the free Audacity, it may have a hiss removal filter.

[jagabo]

I don't think the Creative Labs Vado is prosumer level.

http://www.amazon.com/Creative-Labs-Camcorder-Generation-Minutes/dp/B002P3N1J2

[minidv2dvd]

I don't think the Creative Labs Vado is prosumer level.

http://www.amazon.com/Creative-Labs-Camcorder-Generation-Minutes/dp/B002P3N1J2

i wasn't implying it was, only that not all cams have that problem.

[Bobby2222]

Thank you Jagabo and minidv2dvd,

No the Creative Vado 3rd Generation is NOT a prosumer camcorder - I got it because I cannot presently afford a "real" one - lol - and SERIOUSLY want a Canon HFS21 or HF100 or HG10 - for the lens quality, 25p CINE function and the 1080p HD capability.

However - back to present day reality - THe camcorder itself has excellent reviews and when watched on YouTube the picture quality AND I THOUGHT the audio, especially with an ext mic (the main reason I bought it) was excellent.

This is why it is so upsetting that it will not just work as I expected it to straight out of the box. Am I being niaive in thinking that the sound should be totally quiet - is it that all camcorders make this noise then? (apart from the ones you mentioned in the Prosumer and above brackets).

I have tried all you ahve said Jagabo, re: making noise, closeness of the mic to the speaker, distance of the mic from the camcorder - everything I could - and the noise is still there.

The one thing I will say about Creative is that the customer service may as well be none existant. After the usual (hotmail/google/et al) Sherlock Holmes investigation to actually FIND a contact form - you do get an immediate one back (lol) telling you they will usually deal with it within one day. It is now 32 hours since I received that - Hmmm. One other thing - the machine itself is quite plasticky and the controls are so sensitive (no buttons just touch sensitive on the body) and with NO instructions at all that I do find it extremely difficult to get along with - thus my desire for a "proper one" with knobs and buttons. I do have a great camera ( Fujifilm Finepix S7000) which I adapted with a larger card and cable to record about 20 mins of video - the picture is pretty good actually but because of the age of the camera it is not HD (but does have CCD chip). I did capture good video, then put it into Sony Vegas and made it 16:9 widescreen. HOWEVER - AGAIN the audio was terribly hissy and the laptop that I am using is only 1.47Ghz and was dropping more frames that it captured (well nearly).

Sorry for rabbitting on

OH...One last thing - the reason I keep saying niaive is ...I have never uploaded anything to YouTube yet - does all this hiss disappear when they are uploaded because they "compress" (???) then or something and therefore I should not worry at all about the hiss?

Thank you for your help and time in this - it is truly appreciated. If anything else springs to mind please post it - I really need to get something to work and extremely soon. ( This project is hopefully going to create some income towards the better kit)

Bobby

[jagabo]

the Creative Vado 3rd Generation is NOT a prosumer camcorder - I got it because I cannot presently afford a "real" one

A prosumer camcorder wouldn't have the automatic gain problem. But it will still have the fundamental problem of the mic needing to be near the speaker to get clear, low noise, low echo audio.

I think your camcorder records on solid state media so there won't be any tape mechanism noise. Maybe autofocus noise.

Am I being niaive in thinking that the sound should be totally quiet - is it that all camcorders make this noise then?

All audio recordings have some noise. What you're looking for is signal to noise (SN) ratio -- what the level of the real signal (ie the voice you're recording) is compared to the base noise level of the microphone and eletronics. Cheaper microphones and electronics have lower SN levels (ie,more noise). Mismatched devices can lead to noise problems too. If the output of the microphone is too high audio will be distorted, too low and you will get very faint recordings with a low SN ratio.

Some microphones require a battery. If yours do, make sure you have fresh batteries. Try recording with your mic and some other recorder if you can (an old cassette recorder, your computer's mic input, etc.). Is the SN ratio there better than with the camcorder?

Make recordings with the microphone a few inches away from your mouth, a little to the side (so you don't get big puffs from the letter p), while speaking at a normal level. Do you have excessive noise?

If you load the audio from your recordings into an audio editor how do the levels look?

The one thing I will say about Creative is that the customer service may as well be none existant.

That's pretty much true of the entire tech industry.

...I have never uploaded anything to YouTube yet - does all this hiss disappear when they are uploaded because they "compress" (???)

No, the noise will be still be there.

[Bobby2222]

WOW THANKS JAGABO !!!

That is amazing info - I will try what you have said regarding "new batteries alround" and testing the same sound on another media at the same time and let you know what happens - also the audacity waveform too - all tomorrow morning (UK here and thin neighbours walls - lol)

Thank you for all your time - APPRECIATED !!!

Bobby

[redwudz]

Bobby2222, in the future please use a more descriptive subject title in your posts to allow others to search for similar topics. I will change yours this time. From our rules:

Try to choose a subject that describes your topic.
Please do not use topic subjects like Help me!!! or Problems.

Thanks,
Moderator redwudz

[Bobby2222]

Oops !!!

Sorry Redwudz

Bobby

[budwzr]

If none of the advice given so far helps, you might consider a Zoom H2, or they have a newer $99 one now. I can only vouch for the H2.