Getting ready to digitize some VHS tapes. *New questions*

[nharikrishna]

I have exactly the same purpose as you, I use JVC S-VHS VCR (Model# HR-S7600AM) with built-in TBC & 3-DNR. Canopus ADVC 110 is used for Analog-to-Digital capture. Capturing in DV format is very convenient since you can do a lot of filtering, editing...etc. I am getting excellent results. If you want the best results, you basically need the following...

1. A good S-VHS VCR with Built-in TBC (or buy a separate stand-alone TBC if you wish). Remember to use the S-Video connection as opposed to the normal Composite.
2. A good Analog-to-Digital capture device (such as ADVC 110)
3. Capturing program (FREE WinDV or VirtualDub will do; as it is only a straight file copy from Canopus to Computer)
4. Apply filters using VirtualDub for clean-up
5. Encode to MPEG-2 using a stand-alone MPEG Encoder or the one built into your editor
6. DVD Buring program (such as ImgBurn, Nero)

[Crow550]

Since the ATI Theater 750 does auto clean up. Should Digital R3 be ON or OFF when capturing?

What are some recommended settings? Thanks.

[Crow550]

This VCR good enough or is there a better model? What I mean is should I keep an eye out for anything else? I do think it would be a good idea to collect some VCRs with TBC right?

[jagabo]

From what I've read it pays to have several S-VHS decks because different decks work better on different tapes.

[Crow550]

I picked up a S9900U earlier today. Will this offer anything better than the S7800U. I assume so being a newer model. So should I keep my S7800U as a backup. Use both depending on tapes or what?

I need to get a bigger hard drive. Then I am ready to begin archiving all my old VHS home movies.

Damn it's April and I still haven't got on this. Other crap just kept coming up. Ugh. I will set May as the Month to get this rolling.

Also debating on maybe another capture card as the auto contrast / brightness issues with the ATI cards....It doesn't seem like it's doing that. I'm looking at Home video recordings so it could be just bad lighting anyways....

Anyways I look forward to this project. It should be fun.

[Crow550]

So would like hooking the S9900U to the S7800U do anything useful? Like using TBC on both? Or not?

[Crow550]

What would you say is the best free & paid way of digitizing?

Free would be Virtual Dub with HuffYUV?

Any special settings I need to mess with?

[jagabo]

Also debating on maybe another capture card as the auto contrast / brightness issues with the ATI cards....It doesn't seem like it's doing that.

That problem has to do with the devices' false macrovision response. I was finally able to get around it with a video clarifier (macrovision stripper). A full frame TBC should take care of it too.

VirtualDub + HuffYUV should be fine with an ATI 750. Set the format to YUY2.

[Crow550]

Doesn't both the VCRs I own have a full frame TBC?

Uh er like I said above would using the S7800U with the S9900U both with TBC on do anything?

[jagabo]

Doesn't both the VCRs I own have a full frame TBC?

Uh er like I said above would using the S7800U with the S9900U both with TBC on do anything?

I don't know those VCRs but most SVHS decs only have a line TBC. They may not strip out the false macrovision signals that are causing the ATI devices' AGC controls to screw up.

[Crow550]

I believe the Sima model: sed-cm would help with the Macrovision issues?

[lordsmurf]

I believe the Sima model: sed-cm would help with the Macrovision issues?

No, it does not.

[jagabo]

I don't know if the Sima sed-cm will work or not. Keep in mind this isn't real macrovision, but rather the macrovision circuitry of the ATI devices being set off by something in the analog signal. The macrovision stripper I have works for my ATI 650 USB2 -- it prevents the wandering AGC problem when capturing any composite or s-video source.

[Crow550]

So how often will the picture go bright and such so I can tell if I suffer this issue?

Also any answers to any of my previous questions above?

[jagabo]

So how often will the picture go bright and such so I can tell if I suffer this issue?

It depends on the video. I've seen it happen several times a minute. Usually at cuts from one shot to another. Sometimes when panning across a scene with variable lighting. Sometimes for no apparent reason. Sometimes subtle, sometimes very obvious.

Also any answers to any of my previous questions above?

If VirtualDub works for you then nothing will capture any better. None of the settings in HuffYUV make any difference in quality when capturing YUY2 video.

[lordsmurf]

It's not just ATI devices. Most digital converters are like this. They expect perfect sync'd input.
Your lousy VHS tape needs new sync generated, and that requires an external TBC/frame sync.

The SED-CM is the most useless of all Sima gear.

[sanlyn]

This VCR good enough or is there a better model? What I mean is should I keep an eye out for anything else? I do think it would be a good idea to collect some VCRs with TBC right?

Older VCR's from Panasonic, SONY, and Toshiba are comparable in quality, in any case stick with a brand's higher-end models. Remember JVC and the other big-name brands no longer support parts or service for older VCR's. For slow-speed VHS, Panasonic is likely best.

With a JVC player you should activate the TBC. This circuit is tied in with other image enhancements in EDIT mode, so turning off the TBC will output a lower quality image.

The line-level TBC in JVC's will help straighten wavy or crooked diagonals and verticals and other playback speed anomalies. But you need a full-frame TBC for macrovision. Yoiu can connect both types of TBC at the same time. My old JVC's are no longer living, but I use a Toshiba DVD recorder as a pass-thru device fore a line-level TBC. I think this method is in some ways superior to onboard TBC's built into consumer-grade VCR's.

[Crow550]

So if I don't notice extreme brightness / darkness. I know what a tape looks like when copy protection kicks in. I should be fine & if I do notice it I should get a full frame TBC?

Also hooking the S7800U through the S9900U with both TBCs on won't do any additional clean up?

I did some test videos and I can't notice any real brightness fluctuations so I should be good.

[sanlyn]

Also hooking the S7800U through the S9900U with both TBCs on won't do any additional clean up?

How could additional cleanup take place? Only one machine is playing a tape. The TBC is active only during tape playback.

[Crow550]

Heh oh yeah....

[Zakko]

Hi there Crow550

I understand your situation as it's a current project of mine

I have 1400 hours of footage over the years i am archiving to hard drive
400 odd hours of that are VHS.

For years i was waiting for the best system to capture my old VHS footage and spice it up to tweak it to life as best I can.

I have a I7 2.8 GHz quadcore system with Quadro FX3800 dual GPU vid card and 12 GB ram.

I have Adobe CS5 for editing & production. Premiere is an awesome user friendly editor that gets professional quality results.

For the VHS playback I have a JVC HR-S9600 with built in TBC.

As my system only has firewire I use my old Sony PD 150 to hook the audio & S-Video outputs up to and the cam delivers a nice stable signal into the computer.

Even though I have premiere - I prefer WinDV for capture as its a nice simple program dedicated to capture and gives nice results...

And my captures are awesome. The output of the JVC is excellent. I started using TBC on all the time but found I got occasional vertical shake so have found TBC off is fine for clean video and I only activate it if the video has issues.

Once captured as avi's you can edit to your heart's content.

you can use brightness / contrast filters to adjust the black levels
you can your color balance filters to fix color issues
you can use saturation to boost or reduce color levels as desired.

There are many more filters to enhance your captured files and brighten up the audio before editing.

Once you have created your edit you can encode the file(s), author it in a DVD authoring program like Encore and burn to DVD.


This may not be of interest to you but I'll add in case it is.
Quality is important to me and old VHS's are blurry compared to todays nice clean widescreen HD.

I know that resolution is what it is but, investigation upscaling options on my HD editsystem I found something amazing.

I found if I rendered my 720 x 576 (pal) footage to 1440 x 1080 size and THEN reimported the HD version into premiere I could improve the quality by running a sharpening filter through it. It was fantastic and breathed a brand new clarity into my old footage.

Putting the original res footage through same sharpener produced shabby results.

how come?.

Even when upscaled to HD res the footage effectively is same quality but each original pixel now has 5 pixels, although each exactly the same as the original 1.

but, heres the trick. When a sharpener is put through it works by operating and interpolating all surounding pixels and those 5 pixels for each original are operated on independently. The result is that the image now has 5 different pixels for each 1 original. Result a fundamentally improved resolution.

You'll need an accurate screen to ensure quality results and tweak the filter settings to get the right levels but it can be done.
And, the resulting HD file takes around the same space as a DV file due to effective codec compression.

VHS CAN look nice, with a bit of work.

hope all that helps.

happy editing.

[sanlyn]

Good ideas, Zakko. If you expect to do any further work with software on your capture, though, capturing to a lossy compressor and then recompressing the results could cost plenty. But with greater resolution, etc., you might be able to get away with it.

[Crow550]

Picked up a JVC hm-dh5u. Still have the S9900U.

I have done a little with digitizing some tapes with the S9900U.

I'd assume the HM-DH5U will be better?

[robjv1]

^^ I'll be very curious to hear of your impressions, there seems to be little actual real-world usage information out there on the HM-DH5U. It is a deck I have been curious about for a long time.

The only information I've seen on it was provided by Orsetto -- he says it is the same VCR workings as the JVC 40000U, but without the tuner or front panel but with a better power supply. I believe all of those decks have abilities to fix the top screen flagging/tearing issue.

If you're looking for a different kind of 'look' in a JVC deck and if you've got some money to burn and are a gambler, you might also want to look at the JVC WVHS units for comparison. If you've got just SP tapes, there are some SP only decks that might be up your alley as well.

[Crow550]

Well.... I picked this up for $12. So I'm not really looking to burn cash. Just looking for good deals.

I am about ready to digitize some more tapes. So I seen this model and did some quick research on my phone and it seemed like a good deal. The store allows returns if it's defective. So if I find what looks to be a better model I will check it out. Why not?

What I am wondering if I should capture through firewire or S-Video to my tuner card?

I have heard some say sometimes the best way is to use dvd recorders and others say to capture at 1080P or would it be 1080I and then clean up the video.

I have a stack of tapes and the best I can make them look the better. I know how to expect too much. However this is a fun project when I have free time.

I have done a few tapes in 480i but never got around to play with clean up filters and such.

Which is why I am back. I also realize I better get with it as the tapes are getting older.

Thanks for everyone's feedback thus far.

[robjv1]

Hard to beat $12!

I haven't read the rest of the thread, but I assume you are working with VHS tapes and not DVHS or SVHS tapes.

If this deck is just like the JVC HM-DH40000U, yes it can do analog to firewire passthrough -- but it does not pass an uncompressed signal like you might be expecting. As far as what is 'best', it depends on many factors, including what kind of DVD recorder you use, your capture card, and the quality of your other equipment. What is true ideally is not always true in practice when we have a limited amount of equipment to choose from.

As far as testing, I'd try capturing a few different tapes using both workflows until you have developed a good impression for the strengths and flaws of each. Also, one thing to check is that the TBC and DNR filters work on all outputs.

If your end result is DVD and you are planning/needing on doing image filtering, the ideal workflow is to capture to a lossless format, which usually means computer capturing. Filtering a signal that has already been compressed using a lossy codec results in at least some perceivable image loss, but you have to consider the quality of your equipment too when making that decision. Use your eyes to make the decision.

For capturing to the computer, don't get mucked up with terms like 1080i/1080p -- you're dealing with VHS. You're capturing a fairly low-res interlaced signal. If the end result is DVD, capture at 720 x 480 -- use a lossless compression codec like Huffyuv or Lagarith. Then do your filtering and output the final version to interlaced MPEG2, preferably using a multi-pass encode at a high bitrate.

[Crow550]

Not too worried about burning to DVD as I can easily share them unlisted or privately on YouTube to everyone.

Using a ATI Theater 750 based capture card.

My goal is to get the best rip of the tape, clean it and then compress it I suppose.

[robjv1]

I have the same USB device, the Diamond ATI Theater HD 750. I've had it for a few months now and am thinking of buying another as a backup -- I've been very impressed with it thus far for VHS capture. I've owned a couple of pretty stellar DVD recorders and I think that the resulting picture from the 750 after filtering is more pleasing. The final MPEG2 encodes are both slightly sharper and noticeably less noisy. You will definitely need to do some software noise reduction filtering though -- as is it looks pretty rough, passing along all of the noisy signal on a typical VHS tape. You won't be pleased with that for anything but perfect quality commercial tapes.

Luckily I've had none of the trouble with the AGC circuits that others have had (i.e. the fluctuating white levels eventually blowing out the picture or crushing the blacks, interfering with saturation) in the past few months using it. My current projects are a mix of commercial tapes and some off the air cable recordings from 1992 -- I've been watching like a hawk for it! There have been a few instances where I thought I noticed it, but examining the tape with a direct connection from VCR to monitor revealed it was an issue with the original tape in each instance.

That has been a real deal-breaker for a lot of people, so if you can get around that then I think the 750 is a good choice for a capture device.

[Crow550]

Some posts above said capturing in 1080i or p? Can help with noise removal?

I will be cleaning and hooking it up Tomorrow. Do a test capture. Stack it on the other one.

I have the same USB device, the Diamond ATI Theater HD 750. I've had it for a few months now and am thinking of buying another as a backup -- I've been very impressed with it thus far for VHS capture. I've owned a couple of pretty stellar DVD recorders and I think that the resulting picture from the 750 after filtering is more pleasing. The final MPEG2 encodes are both slightly sharper and noticeably less noisy. You will definitely need to do some software noise reduction filtering though -- as is it looks pretty rough, passing along all of the noisy signal on a typical VHS tape. You won't be pleased with that for anything but perfect quality commercial tapes.

Luckily I've had none of the trouble with the AGC circuits that others have had (i.e. the fluctuating white levels eventually blowing out the picture or crushing the blacks, interfering with saturation) in the past few months using it. My current projects are a mix of commercial tapes and some off the air cable recordings from 1992 -- I've been watching like a hawk for it! There have been a few instances where I thought I noticed it, but examining the tape with a direct connection from VCR to monitor revealed it was an issue with the original tape in each instance.

That has been a real deal-breaker for a lot of people, so if you can get around that then I think the 750 is a good choice for a capture device.

[robjv1]

Yes, it sounds like that particular poster had luck running their upscaled footage through Premiere's sharpening filter. That is a very specific situation though and it has nothing to do with noise reduction. It could just be that the Premiere sharpening filter they are using is not intended to be used on low resolution sources. Sharpening algorithms are sometimes applied differently based on the resolution of the input video -- with a finer style of sharpening done on higher resolution video and a more coarse style of sharpening applied on lower resolution sources. It is worth experimenting with though. Keep in mind that their intention was to capture in a lossy format and then use the extra resolution for wiggle room. If you avoid installing the 750HD software and capture with VirtualDub, you can capture uncompressed video instead of utilizing the real-time MPEG2 encoding.

Also note that the sharpening you do will will not add 'detail' to the captured image, it will just enhance what is already there and also probably add a little noise too. The preference of how it should look is entirely subjective -- some people prefer the look of video that many on here would consider extremely oversharpened, where some folks prefer video that others would say is overly smooth and plastic looking. You'll have to figure out what you prefer. There is a happy medium somewhere between completely noise free video and footage with what I would call "analog character".


Generally speaking you can sharpen higher quality recordings more than lower quality recordings without adverse effects -- commercial SP masters and SP television recordings from a clean cable signal will pop a little more off the screen with a little high frequency boost.

For noise reduction -- if you have $99 to spend, you'll want to get Neat Video. It does a fantastic job with many types of noise, has impressive temporal filtering abilities and has a very good sharpener too. You won't use it for everything, but for noisy EP tapes in particular, it is practically indispensable. There are a few other good free filters for use in VirtualDub as well. Go easy on the noise reduction though, in many cases the temporal filtering is enough by itself to make a huge difference in the clarity of your footage.