DVD at high bit rate - Blocky & grainy on big screen

[nharikrishna]

I am not sure if I am missing something.

Used Canopus ADVC 110 with a JVC S-VHS (Built-in TBC, 3-DNR) to capture Analog-to-Digital of a VHS Tape using Firewire.

Used Premiere CS4 for capturing, small editing (cuts, inclusion of songs, small transitions).

Then used the Adobe Media Encoder for encoding to M2V and WAV files for DVD Creation.

Bit rate used for encoding was 8Mbps CBR. Audio is left at PCM. Premiere CS4 used Mainconcept encoder. I intentionally kept the Bitrate at 8 Mbps because when I encoded at the maximum allowed (9 Mbps), Encore DVD reported the bitrate was too high (not sure why, since it is well within DVD Specification).

Duration of video is 56 Minutes.

Then used Adobe Encore CS4 for generating the Video_TS files. The Video_TS folder size is about 3.96 GB.

Finally, used Nero to burn the Video_TS folder onto DVD at 16X speed. Verified data after burnig as well.

Now the problem: The VHS Tape showed okay when connected to my Panasonic 32" LCD TV. However when I played the DVD using my Panasonic Progressive Scan DVD Player on the same LCD TV, the video was blocky and grainy when watched from very close distance to the TV. If watched from a standard TV-viewing distance, the blocks and grains are still there but are not visible as much but I can make out that they are there.

I would have thought blockiness occurs when the bitrate used was low, but at 8 Mbps can it be possible to get blocks? My Computer is not the latest but it is not the slowest either. Could it be the computer? (I have a dual Core 2.4 GHz, 2 GB RAM, 7200 RPM Hard Drive 200GB).

More info: The video was a wedding event, and doesn't contain any rapid movements...etc. Also I used Verbatim blank DVDs.

I was too disappointed to see the inferior quality video. Am I missing something here besides encoding at high rate (of 8 Mbps) and using reasonably good equipment? Why can't it just atleast match the quality of the VHS when played directly on TV?

Regards

[Bjs]

You will never achieve the same quality as found in dvds from that source even if the bitrate is set high ... your comparing analog with digital ... most settle using final outputs of half D1 or SVCD.

Secondly, your 32" lcd ... what is the current resolution set to when accessing it's main setup menu ?

If it's resolution is greater than those as specified in dvd standards then you will see these common issues during playback ... The higher the resolution the more noticeable these fault's become.

Example : stamp sized avi scaled up to dvd specs = poor results.

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You used mainconcept encoder in Premiere CS4 followed by Adobe encore CS4 to encode to m2v and wav ... It may appear that the file may have been encoded twice which may have produced the final result being experienced ... In general the only time encoding should be done is to reach the final output type ... in Premiere CS4, stick with lossless video compression as output should improve the final result of the final encoding stage.

8mbs is a bit of an over kill coming from analog source ... between 5 and 6 would be fine.

[nharikrishna]

Thanks for the response.

You will never achieve the same quality as found in dvds from that source even if the bitrate is set high ... your comparing analog with digital ... most settle using final outputs of half D1 or SVCD.

I totally understand this point. I was hoping to get the picture quality on par with the quality that I got when the VHS was played on the same TV. At the time no blockiness was seen. The same S-VHS VCR was used to play the casette on TV and for capturing as well.

Secondly, your 32" lcd ... what is the current resolution set to when accessing it's main setup menu ?

If it's resolution is greater than those as specified in dvd standards then you will see these common issues during playback ... The higher the resolution the more noticeable these fault's become.

Example : stamp sized avi scaled up to dvd specs = poor results.

I guess my LCD TV was set at widescreen whereas the source & the DVD were 4:3. I will try setting my TV at 4:3 and then play the DVD to see if it makes any difference.

You used mainconcept encoder in Premiere CS4 followed by Adobe encore CS4 to encode to m2v and wav ... It may appear that the file may have been encoded twice which may have produced the final result being experienced ... In general the only time encoding should be done is to reach the final output type ... in Premiere CS4, stick with lossless video compression as output should improve the final result of the final encoding stage.

8mbs is a bit of an over kill coming from analog source ... between 5 and 6 would be fine.

I didn't encode 2 times. The source AVI file (after editing) was encoded to MPEG-2 Compliant files (M2V & WAV) only once by 'Adobe Media Encoder". After that I used Encore DVD for producing Video_TS folder (which doesn't involve "transcoding" as per Encore DVD).

[intracube]

Used Canopus ADVC 110 with a JVC S-VHS (Built-in TBC, 3-DNR) to capture Analog-to-Digital of a VHS Tape using Firewire.

Used Premiere CS4 for capturing, small editing (cuts, inclusion of songs, small transitions).

Then used the Adobe Media Encoder for encoding to M2V and WAV files for DVD Creation.

Premiere CS4 used Mainconcept encoder.

As Bjs says, you should keep the number of conversions between (lossy) codecs to a minimum.

If you intend to play the finished DVD on standard TVs, you shouldn't use half D1 or SVCD standards - they don't preserve interlaced video and the quality will suffer.
EDIT: I'm completely wrong stating that; 'half D1' and SVCD formats store 480 lines for NTSC and 576 lines for PAL - which is fine for preserving interlaced video. Big apologies.

I would have thought blockiness occurs when the bitrate used was low, but at 8 Mbps can it be possible to get blocks?

Bit-rate alone doesn't determine the quality. Some encoders produce better results for a specific bit-rate than others. Even a particular encoder can produce better or worse results depending on the parameters that are set. But, there's a tradeoff - settings that improve the quality often mean significantly longer times to encode.

[nharikrishna]

As described in my earlier post, I wasn't encoding twice.

Just an update: last night played the same DVD on a CRT-based 21" TV and all looks perfect, without any blocks and grains.

Amazing. So the Big Screen LCD is doing some magnification of the inherent digitisation artifacts I guess.

Is it the experience of everyone who have converted VHS to DVD and played on a 32" or higher LCD TV?

Regards

[manono]

So the Big Screen LCD is doing some magnification of the inherent digitisation artifacts I guess.

It's more like the CRT does some smoothing of the video. However, it's also true that many LCDs out of the box have the sharpness set way too high. Generally, you need none at all.

I intentionally kept the Bitrate at 8 Mbps because when I encoded at the maximum allowed (9 Mbps), Encore DVD reported the bitrate was too high (not sure why, since it is well within DVD Specification).

Video alone, yes. Video + WAV audio + muxing overhead, no.

You could reencode the WAV audio to lower bitrate AC3 audio, thus allowing you to up the max video bitrate to 9000 or even 9500, thus improving the quality of the video. You might also consider filtering the noise in order to make the video more compressible which will result in fewer artifacts.

[nharikrishna]

So the Big Screen LCD is doing some magnification of the inherent digitisation artifacts I guess.

It's more like the CRT does some smoothing of the video. However, it's also true that many LCDs out of the box have the sharpness set way too high. Generally, you need none at all.

I intentionally kept the Bitrate at 8 Mbps because when I encoded at the maximum allowed (9 Mbps), Encore DVD reported the bitrate was too high (not sure why, since it is well within DVD Specification).

Video alone, yes. Video + WAV audio + muxing overhead, no.

You could reencode the WAV audio to lower bitrate AC3 audio, thus allowing you to up the max video bitrate to 9000 or even 9500, thus improving the quality of the video. You might also consider filtering the noise in order to make the video more compressible which will result in fewer artifacts.

Thanks monano. I will try and adjust the Sharpness of the LCD TV tonight and see. Basically I never adjusted it since it was bought, as you said the sharpness levels out of the box may have been too high.

For the bitrate, when I set the bitrate at 9 and WAV, Adobe Media Encoder reported that the final resulting files will fit within 4.38 GB. That's the reason I did encode at 9, and subsequently Encore rejected it saying "too high bitrate". May be Media Encoder is at fault reporting. Not sure.

Filtering noise at AVI level before the encoding? The AVI file doesn't have these artifacts mentioned, it is only after the encoding is done the artifacts are visible. I didn't try and play the AVI file on TV though. My Canopus ADVC 110 has a facility to output the captured video directly to TV as it captures. I will see if the LCD TV displays these artifacts during the capture.

Regards

[manono]

That's the reason I did encode at 9, and subsequently Encore rejected it saying "too high bitrate". May be Media Encoder is at fault reporting. Not sure.

And I already told you in so many words that video at 9000 and WAV audio at 1536 plus the muxing overhead makes an out-of-spec DVD that can't be authored. My suggestion was to reencode the WAV audio to lower bitrate AC3 audio and then you can use 9000 with no problem. That may or may not not solve your problem, but it should help.

Filtering noise at AVI level before the encoding? The AVI file doesn't have these artifacts mentioned

Yeah, so? It's DV-AVI, isn't it? If so it has a huge bitrate of its own.

[nharikrishna]

OK thanks. Will try AC3 and see.