Hi8 camcorder with S-Video output?

[Undead Sega]

Probably this has been asked before, but I couldnt find a proper answer, but does anyone know which Hi8 camcorder would contain an S-Video output?

I already have a Hi8 camcorder but only with Composite output, and for those who know their video signals and cables, S-Video would give the better picture, even though is material was recorded in composite format it would still be good practice to obtain the video signal without further diminishing the quality and possibly a cleaner (noise-free) image, this is the case that I am wanting with my old Hi8 video tapes and searching for the right camcorder with your help

I would like to note, please do not be mistaken with Digital8 camcorders which a majority of them would have an S-Video output, however I assume it digitises the footage before it is fed through any sort of output.

Thanks, look forward hearing back!

[zoobie]

most all of them...that's how you get it off
it's totally weird that it doesn't have s-video out but I've heard it's true...what's your cam model?
sometimes, it's hidden somewhere on the camera
if not, rent a Hi8 cam that has s-video out

[Undead Sega]

My camcorder model is a TRV46E, and no it does not have an S-Video output, and I dont think most of them do but assumingly some does thus why I'm asking here if anyone would happen to know what Hi8 cam would have such an output.

Anyone may i ask?

[davexnet]

My Canon ES5000 has S-video.

[Undead Sega]

Oh okay, that's Very interesting, I almost forgot Canon was part of the Sony 8mm tape format the closest I got was a Samsung SC-L810 but not even I can find anything on that recently, were there any Sony Hi8 camcorder models with S-Video output?

Also, would playback differ if played on different devices (camcorders) than the one it was originally recorded on?

[filmboss80]

Actually, I never knew that anyone made a Hi8 camcorder that actually DIDN'T have an S-video output. (Seems strange. Kind of defeats the purpose.) Canon certainly never made such an omission, so see if you can find any Hi8 model of that brand (as davexnet suggested).

[Undead Sega]

Well I am from the UK, maybe I do lack small knowlege on the Hi8 camcorders, but I am constantly looking at my one (TRV46E) and there is NO S-Video output, from what you are saying it is actually dissapointing me that I am left with a Composite connection only, maybe things here are different?

From your experience, do you see a noticable quality difference in playbacking your Video/Hi-8 recordings when using S-Video and Composite?

[edDV]

Well I am from the UK, maybe I do lack small knowlege on the Hi8 camcorders, but I am constantly looking at my one (TRV46E) and there is NO S-Video output, from what you are saying it is actually dissapointing me that I am left with a Composite connection only, maybe things here are different?

From your experience, do you see a noticable quality difference in playbacking your Video/Hi-8 recordings when using S-Video and Composite?

A Hi8 camcorder with composite only is rare. Maybe only in the UK where other unique models exist due to local taxation policies. For example the UK put a stiff tax on any device that allowed recording of the PAL signal so Sony and others promptly eliminated that feature from all their UK consumer camcorders including D8 and all but the most expensive MiniDV. In other words the UK collected not a new penny in tax but most Sony camcorder owners lost a key feature.

I haven't heard of a tax on S-Video out but it may exist. Or Sony was low balling older format Hi8 with feature limitations. Like others I have never seen a Hi8 camcorder with composite out only.

Workaround? That would be a capture device with a good comb filter. The ATI 650 PCIe or USB2 has a 3D digital comb filter. That is the best quality for money I have found. (~$40-$50 here).

[Undead Sega]

A Hi8 camcorder with composite only is rare??? (looks at my TRV46E with a smile) However it is a Mono camcorder.

I can probably understand what you are rying to say about the whole tax thing howevger i highly doubt that was the case and it could just be that Sony didnt want to give us UK Sony users the S-Video output option, but then I could be wrong, however I just checked the Sony UK website and they only have 2 Hi8 cams listed, the TRV238e and the TRV228e. Now while the 'better' cam (the TRV238e) like mine doesnt have an S-Video output (and input???) strangely the TRV228e does (output only)! This now confuses me on what the hell is going on here (Sony?).

That work around does seem like a good option, however I am trying to get the best quality by good means, my plan (and theory that S-Video would provide me superior picture than Composite) is to feed the signal into a TBC-1000 to which will be digitised to a lossless avi, and I would work from there with corresponding Avisynth filters

[edDV]

A Hi8 camcorder with composite only is rare??? (looks at my TRV46E with a smile) However it is a Mono camcorder.

I can probably understand what you are rying to say about the whole tax thing howevger i highly doubt that was the case and it could just be that Sony didnt want to give us UK Sony users the S-Video output option, but then I could be wrong, however I just checked the Sony UK website and they only have 2 Hi8 cams listed, the TRV238e and the TRV228e. Now while the 'better' cam (the TRV238e) like mine doesnt have an S-Video output (and input???) strangely the TRV228e does (output only)! This now confuses me on what the hell is going on here (Sony?).

I'm very surprised Sony is still selling Hi8 camcorders there. A used Hi8 model will be probably have S-Video out.

That work around does seem like a good option, however I am trying to get the best quality by good means, my plan (and theory that S-Video would provide me superior picture than Composite) is to feed the signal into a TBC-1000 to which will be digitised to a lossless avi, and I would work from there with corresponding Avisynth filters

A TBC-1000 will have a lower quality comb or notch filter but at least it will be time base corrected.

Avisynth filters won't fix cross luma and cross chroma interference. By then it is too late.

[davexnet]

As edDV mentioned, ATI 650 can get very good quality from composite due to the comb filter.
I've an Avermedia card, also 3d comb filter, and I get very good results from my old VHS collection
using composite input.


Just out of interest do the Canopus boxes (110 & 55) accept composite? Do they have 3d comb filters?

[danno78]

Just out of interest do the Canopus boxes (110 & 55) accept composite? Do they have 3d comb filters?

Both can handle composite signals and the separation between chroma and luma is done by adaptive 2D comb filter.

[filmboss80]

@undead Sega: sometimes S-Video ports are hidden by little rubber covers so that dust and sand don't get into them. You may not readily see an S-video interface, but look for something on the camcorder that isn't consistent with the hard plastic shell camcorder covering. I still have a hard time accepting that there's not an S-Video interface on your camera. The S-video on my old Canon was covered and not readily visible. Give that Sony of yours a really good lookover. Get a thumbnail under edges of anything rubber or any part that seems to be hinged.

[davexnet]

I downloaded the manual, and sure enough, it's mono, composite only.
Not the end of the world, as was mentioned, with the right capture device you can still get good results.

[Undead Sega]

A Hi8 camcorder with composite only is rare??? (looks at my TRV46E with a smile) However it is a Mono camcorder.

I can probably understand what you are rying to say about the whole tax thing howevger i highly doubt that was the case and it could just be that Sony didnt want to give us UK Sony users the S-Video output option, but then I could be wrong, however I just checked the Sony UK website and they only have 2 Hi8 cams listed, the TRV238e and the TRV228e. Now while the 'better' cam (the TRV238e) like mine doesnt have an S-Video output (and input???) strangely the TRV228e does (output only)! This now confuses me on what the hell is going on here (Sony?).

I'm very surprised Sony is still selling Hi8 camcorders there. A used Hi8 model will be probably have S-Video out.

That work around does seem like a good option, however I am trying to get the best quality by good means, my plan (and theory that S-Video would provide me superior picture than Composite) is to feed the signal into a TBC-1000 to which will be digitised to a lossless avi, and I would work from there with corresponding Avisynth filters

A TBC-1000 will have a lower quality comb or notch filter but at least it will be time base corrected.

Avisynth filters won't fix cross luma and cross chroma interference. By then it is too late.

Actually they are not selling Hi8 camcorders on the site anymore,h owever it is only those two models that are still available for viewing, I assume they were the last production models to have been made.

Regarding the TBC-1000, that is my intention to have it time base corrected, and this interference you are mentioning I believe is the 'Dot crawl' defect? Isnt the S-Video connector made to eliminate this (primarily why I chose S-Video for analogue sources)?

As edDV mentioned, ATI 650 can get very good quality from composite due to the comb filter.
I've an Avermedia card, also 3d comb filter, and I get very good results from my old VHS collection
using composite input.


Just out of interest do the Canopus boxes (110 & 55) accept composite? Do they have 3d comb filters?

ATI makes capture cards??? I really must be abit behind the times. Both of the mentioned capturing devices, are they the best? or are all merely the same besides for the internal comb filter? At the same time, what which would be the better comb filter once again?

@undead Sega: sometimes S-Video ports are hidden by little rubber covers so that dust and sand don't get into them. You may not readily see an S-video interface, but look for something on the camcorder that isn't consistent with the hard plastic shell camcorder covering. I still have a hard time accepting that there's not an S-Video interface on your camera. The S-video on my old Canon was covered and not readily visible. Give that Sony of yours a really good lookover. Get a thumbnail under edges of anything rubber or any part that seems to be hinged.

For the love of god, at this curent time I cannot find any S-Video connector on this camcorder, I even read the manual and there is no indication of it either, only connecting a Scart adapter for the composite cables.

[edDV]

A Hi8 camcorder with composite only is rare??? (looks at my TRV46E with a smile) However it is a Mono camcorder.

I can probably understand what you are rying to say about the whole tax thing howevger i highly doubt that was the case and it could just be that Sony didnt want to give us UK Sony users the S-Video output option, but then I could be wrong, however I just checked the Sony UK website and they only have 2 Hi8 cams listed, the TRV238e and the TRV228e. Now while the 'better' cam (the TRV238e) like mine doesnt have an S-Video output (and input???) strangely the TRV228e does (output only)! This now confuses me on what the hell is going on here (Sony?).

I'm very surprised Sony is still selling Hi8 camcorders there. A used Hi8 model will be probably have S-Video out.

That work around does seem like a good option, however I am trying to get the best quality by good means, my plan (and theory that S-Video would provide me superior picture than Composite) is to feed the signal into a TBC-1000 to which will be digitised to a lossless avi, and I would work from there with corresponding Avisynth filters

A TBC-1000 will have a lower quality comb or notch filter but at least it will be time base corrected.

Avisynth filters won't fix cross luma and cross chroma interference. By then it is too late.

Actually they are not selling Hi8 camcorders on the site anymore,h owever it is only those two models that are still available for viewing, I assume they were the last production models to have been made.

Regarding the TBC-1000, that is my intention to have it time base corrected, and this interference you are mentioning I believe is the 'Dot crawl' defect? Isnt the S-Video connector made to eliminate this (primarily why I chose S-Video for analogue sources)?

Hi8 records luminance Y and chroma C separately to tape. S-Video maintains that separation through the 4 pin connector. Composite PAL is a sum of Y+C on two pins. The capture card must reseparate PAL into Y and C before analog to digital conversion. 3D comb filters are the top technology for achieving this separation without dot crawl, moire, or other false colour atrifacts.

I haven't seen a direct comparison of the ATI 650 to the Avermedia cards. The only complaint I have with the 650 is the user interface software but you can get it to work for this purpose.

[davexnet]

I've never used the ATI. The Avermedia includes the Aver TV Media Center - version 1.75,
the latest version with some bug fixes that fixed occasional freeze and sound level issues . It works great with the
HW mpeg2 encoding.

I've also installed a program called STOIK, which I found in the tools section here, and it's more generic
capture utility, and with that I can use Huffy, or mjpeg.

Are these cards immune from dropped frames? I recently captured an old Teletubbies commercial tape
for my daughter. (I bought the tape over 10 years ago). Somewhere along the line a particular section
was mangled and the picture completely breaks up for a second or two - yet no dropped frames.
I was very surprised.

[Undead Sega]

A Hi8 camcorder with composite only is rare??? (looks at my TRV46E with a smile) However it is a Mono camcorder.

I can probably understand what you are rying to say about the whole tax thing howevger i highly doubt that was the case and it could just be that Sony didnt want to give us UK Sony users the S-Video output option, but then I could be wrong, however I just checked the Sony UK website and they only have 2 Hi8 cams listed, the TRV238e and the TRV228e. Now while the 'better' cam (the TRV238e) like mine doesnt have an S-Video output (and input???) strangely the TRV228e does (output only)! This now confuses me on what the hell is going on here (Sony?).

I'm very surprised Sony is still selling Hi8 camcorders there. A used Hi8 model will be probably have S-Video out.

That work around does seem like a good option, however I am trying to get the best quality by good means, my plan (and theory that S-Video would provide me superior picture than Composite) is to feed the signal into a TBC-1000 to which will be digitised to a lossless avi, and I would work from there with corresponding Avisynth filters

A TBC-1000 will have a lower quality comb or notch filter but at least it will be time base corrected.

Avisynth filters won't fix cross luma and cross chroma interference. By then it is too late.

Actually they are not selling Hi8 camcorders on the site anymore,h owever it is only those two models that are still available for viewing, I assume they were the last production models to have been made.

Regarding the TBC-1000, that is my intention to have it time base corrected, and this interference you are mentioning I believe is the 'Dot crawl' defect? Isnt the S-Video connector made to eliminate this (primarily why I chose S-Video for analogue sources)?

Hi8 records luminance Y and chroma C separately to tape. S-Video maintains that separation through the 4 pin connector. Composite PAL is a sum of Y+C on two pins. The capture card must reseparate PAL into Y and C before analog to digital conversion. 3D comb filters are the top technology for achieving this separation without dot crawl, moire, or other false colour atrifacts.

I haven't seen a direct comparison of the ATI 650 to the Avermedia cards. The only complaint I have with the 650 is the user interface software but you can get it to work for this purpose.

I see, does Hi8 actually record in S-Video or in somesort of component signal? Either way, outputting using S-Video would avoid in having defects or artifacts such as Dot Crawl and assumingly would send a cleaner signal with less noise. If it was sent through Composite, then the Y & C signals would be merged thus making it a difficult process to seperate them, but I'm sure technology these days can do the job perfectly right?

Even if that's the case we would want to avoid that as much as possible (except when it comes to Laserdisc, that is a slightly different matter), and so now i know that 3D comb filters are what I am looking for Composite signals as they are number 1 yeah? However, is there such thing as different 3D comb filters?

I've never used the ATI. The Avermedia includes the Aver TV Media Center - version 1.75,
the latest version with some bug fixes that fixed occasional freeze and sound level issues . It works great with the
HW mpeg2 encoding.

I've also installed a program called STOIK, which I found in the tools section here, and it's more generic
capture utility, and with that I can use Huffy, or mjpeg.

Are these cards immune from dropped frames? I recently captured an old Teletubbies commercial tape
for my daughter. (I bought the tape over 10 years ago). Somewhere along the line a particular section
was mangled and the picture completely breaks up for a second or two - yet no dropped frames.
I was very surprised.

Hmmm...interesting, I better consider these cards one day in the future if I want to digitise direct to a lossless file, relating to this I would like to ask, if I were to take a VCR via. S-Video -> TBC-1000 -> Capture card via. S-Video, is that asking for loosing quality right there?

[edDV]

A Hi8 camcorder with composite only is rare??? (looks at my TRV46E with a smile) However it is a Mono camcorder.

I can probably understand what you are rying to say about the whole tax thing howevger i highly doubt that was the case and it could just be that Sony didnt want to give us UK Sony users the S-Video output option, but then I could be wrong, however I just checked the Sony UK website and they only have 2 Hi8 cams listed, the TRV238e and the TRV228e. Now while the 'better' cam (the TRV238e) like mine doesnt have an S-Video output (and input???) strangely the TRV228e does (output only)! This now confuses me on what the hell is going on here (Sony?).

I'm very surprised Sony is still selling Hi8 camcorders there. A used Hi8 model will be probably have S-Video out.

If you want to go pro uncompressed you will need a 2 disk RAID for standard def, 3-5 disk RAID for HD and 8-12 disk RAID for A/B live roll editing.

That work around does seem like a good option, however I am trying to get the best quality by good means, my plan (and theory that S-Video would provide me superior picture than Composite) is to feed the signal into a TBC-1000 to which will be digitised to a lossless avi, and I would work from there with corresponding Avisynth filters

A TBC-1000 will have a lower quality comb or notch filter but at least it will be time base corrected.

Avisynth filters won't fix cross luma and cross chroma interference. By then it is too late.

Actually they are not selling Hi8 camcorders on the site anymore,h owever it is only those two models that are still available for viewing, I assume they were the last production models to have been made.

Regarding the TBC-1000, that is my intention to have it time base corrected, and this interference you are mentioning I believe is the 'Dot crawl' defect? Isnt the S-Video connector made to eliminate this (primarily why I chose S-Video for analogue sources)?

Hi8 records luminance Y and chroma C separately to tape. S-Video maintains that separation through the 4 pin connector. Composite PAL is a sum of Y+C on two pins. The capture card must reseparate PAL into Y and C before analog to digital conversion. 3D comb filters are the top technology for achieving this separation without dot crawl, moire, or other false colour atrifacts.

I haven't seen a direct comparison of the ATI 650 to the Avermedia cards. The only complaint I have with the 650 is the user interface software but you can get it to work for this purpose.

I see, does Hi8 actually record in S-Video or in somesort of component signal? Either way, outputting using S-Video would avoid in having defects or artifacts such as Dot Crawl and assumingly would send a cleaner signal with less noise. If it was sent through Composite, then the Y & C signals would be merged thus making it a difficult process to seperate them, but I'm sure technology these days can do the job perfectly right?

Even if that's the case we would want to avoid that as much as possible (except when it comes to Laserdisc, that is a slightly different matter), and so now i know that 3D comb filters are what I am looking for Composite signals as they are number 1 yeah? However, is there such thing as different 3D comb filters?

Hi8 like Video8, VHS, S-VHS, U-Matic is a color under format. The RGB camera sensor is matrixed into YUV, then U and V are modulated to the PAL 4.43 MHz subcarrier, then down converted for recording. Y is FM modulated separately. The result is separate luma and chroma on tape.

In the old days comb filters were expensive. Today they are implemented on A/D chips as standard practice. The more sophisticated 3D comb filters need memory and royalty payment but both have dropped in cost to the point they can be used on a $50 capture card. S-Video is still better but 3D comb filters come close.

For native composite Laserdisc a good adaptive 2D or 3D comb filter is a must. I haven't seen a comparison of ATI vs. Avermedia but I suspect they both use the same chip. More sophisticated capture cards jump to over $1000. Some of those add TBC and/or frame sync on the card. Most high end cards target pro uncompressed SMPTE 259M (SDI) rather than MPeg2 but some like Optibase target AVC streaming.

[Undead Sega]

Hi everyone, so sorry for the late reply, but i would like to say thanks to you all for the information here I would like to mentioned that I have recently won an auction on eBay for a TRV228E for £62 (+£10 P&P) and will be awaiting for it in the post, and yes it does have S-Video output which is what I was looking for all the time. I am abitr surprised on why alot of bidders were going for this specific camcorder, I actually lost 3 of them before finally winning this one, mainly because I was not aware how much it would go up in price.

I believe it is a good camcorder (if anyone here can tell me why, that would be great), now I supose the next thing is to find an excellent TBC that can input/output S-Video connections and for it to fix up any signal distortions, I am highly complementing on this TBC-1000, but I do not know if it is a little out-dated or if there is better out there. Also I read here and there about it softening the image which kind off puts me off as that sharpness can never be regained

[edDV]

The TRV-228E includes a basic line TBC plus digital noise reduction.
http://www.welectronics.com/camcorder/sonyTRV228E.html

[Undead Sega]

and from that link, I have just discovered it has only Mono output, now how the hell can I get Stereo output from it now???

I believe it is a good camcorder (if anyone here can tell me why, that would be great), now I supose the next thing is to find an excellent TBC that can input/output S-Video connections and for it to fix up any signal distortions, I am highly complementing on this TBC-1000, but I do not know if it is a little out-dated or if there is better out there. Also I read here and there about it softening the image which kind off puts me off as that sharpness can never be regained

Any comments on this perhaps may i ask?

[davexnet]

I thought the tapes themselves were mono. Didn't you record them on a mono camcorder ?

[edDV]

Hi8 format is stereo. Maybe they mean the Mic is mono.

The output jacks/cable should be stereo. Check the manual.

[davexnet]

Apparently, some Hi8 cameras were mono. I never realized that until I read this thread.
May be it was done to keep the cost down? Must admit, it seems odd.

[edDV]

Here is the stereo cable for the 228E
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ex-Pro-CCD-TRV208E-CCD-TRV218E-CCD-TRV228E-CCD-TRV238E/dp/B000R0504O

[Undead Sega]

Hi everyone, I thought I would just let you know that I have received my TRV-228E a week ago and it functions very well, also it has the desired S-Video output, paid £72 altogether just for that I played back some footage over my newly bought Belkin S-Video cable, and whilst I did get a good picture on my HDTV, it looked pretty substandard, the image looked like as if it was paint daubed, still giving the impression that the vertical edges looked unstable.

Now I know Hi8 video is not all that bad, but surely there must be a way for it to improve on the capturing process?

[davexnet]

Post a section of the captured footage. My Hi8 gets very good quality when there's enough light.
Does your new camera produce a worse image than your old ?

Hard to evaluate what you're saying based on the info so far.

[edDV]

...I played back some footage over my newly bought Belkin S-Video cable, and whilst I did get a good picture on my HDTV, it looked pretty substandard, the image looked like as if it was paint daubed, still giving the impression that the vertical edges looked unstable. ..

Try looking at it on an old conventional CRT TV.

An HDTV makes a poor monitor for evaluating 576i quality. The TV must deinterlace and upscale the S-Video input to display resolution. HDTV sets vary widely in quality of deinterlace and upscale. Better to use standard def TV set to evaluate quality.

If you post a representative clip, we can check it for levels.