How do I get more than 80 min. on a VCD?

[Shannafey]

OK, I have been burning standard vcds and svcds for a couple of years, so I am pretty experienced, or so I thought. I have a 90 minute movie I want to fit on 1vcd, merely because I want to hold on to it, but quality isn't a major issue. I do, however, want it in vcd format. What do I need to do? Use cbr, vbr, cq? How do I calculate the bitrate? Please help me out on this one? I am using Tmpgenc as an encoder.

[Dave B]

Basically you need to lower the bitrate. You can use the bitrate calculator on this site to find the settings you will need for TMPGEnc to pull it off.

http://www.vcdhelp.com/calc.htm

A constant bitrate (CBR) using either VCD or SVCD will guarantee you the right file size.

Equivalently you can join the fun and games of the "120 mins.." thread and use VBR compression with a custom template - this may squeeze a bit more quality out but the results may not be able to fit on one CD.

[Shannafey]

This is exactly what I have been doing. I used the bitrate calc, and it said 992kb, but the file is over 900mb. It won't fit on a vcd.

[Anonymous65]

Get a 99 minute CD-R.

[Bud]

You said you had a 90 min, just use NERO, do an overburn on a 90 min blank CD, don't worry about the file size, just the time, you should be able to get it done or like Dave B indicated look at some of the comments on the 120 min CD thread........thye have included a link to some sample and a TMPGEnc template to do this...........

Bud

[staind_96]

or you could go to the tools section and download sefys SeVCD template. they work great.

[kwag]

If you want to fit exactly 90 minutes on a 80 minute CD-R,
load the standard VCD template and lower the bitrate to 1,051Kbps and the audio to 128Kbps.

These values are calculated with the Calc suggested above.

This of course is a constant bitrate, and quality will be slightly less than a standard VCD, but will let you fit those extra 10 minutes of video.

With the values above, the file should be 800MB in size, after encoding.

kwag

[Shannafey]

kwag,
Thanks for being the only one to actually answer my question. I try what you suggested, but unfortunately the file was over 900mb. I had used the bitrate calc before, and it didn't give me a true size. I tried again, using your suggestion of lowering audio bitrate, something I didn't think about, but no dice. I am about to give up, but I know you guys on the board do this, so I am dying to know how. I want to use an 80min. cdr because, that's what I buy by the spindle. I don't want to go out there and search for 90 min. ones, and if I am going to pay more for them, I might as well use the vcd template and use 2 90min. cdrs. ANYONE HAVE ANY IDEAS, SUGGESTIONS!!!???

[carlojazz]

Hello,

I tried the new Traxdata 90 minutes CD-R and I easily fit a VCD of 87minutes without any change to the bit rate, maybe you can try to fit the 90` VCD reducing slightly the bit rate of both audio and video.
To use these 90` CD-R with Nero, you must set an overburn time of 90' as the program will see them as 80'.
They are much more reliable than a overburned standard 80' CD-R.

Good luck! Carlo

[carlojazz]

About calculations fo 90'

with std. VCD the bit rate is 1150kbs for video and 224kbs for audio,for a total od 1374kbs/sec. That means that 90' of movie will take exacly:

(1150+224)*60*90/8 =927,450 Mbytes.

reducing the video bitrate to 1109 with 224k aoudio you will get 899,775 Mbytes or...
reducing audio bitrate to 183kbt with 1150k video you'll get the same amout. YOu can play with both, but I don;t know if these bitrates are standard. Just try few minutes of encoding and try with a CD-RW...

If is ok, that should fit in a 90' CD-R in VCD mode. If not, why don't you use two CDS?

Best regards Carlo

[Shannafey]

Thanks for the calculations, Carlo. Believe it or not, I have done one at 900kbs video and 224 on the audio and it was still over 900mb. That's why I have been posting. I can't understand what's wrong.

[kinneera]

Using a bitrate calc that has never failed for me, I get the following:

For a 74 min. disc: Video at 888, Audio at 224
For a 80 min. disc: Video at 978, Audio at 224
For a 90 min. disc: Video at 1130, Audio at 224

[kwag]

Thanks for the calculations, Carlo. Believe it or not, I have done one at 900kbs video and 224 on the audio and it was still over 900mb. That's why I have been posting. I can't understand what's wrong.

I don't know what version of TMPEG you're using, but can you check under TMPEG's Settings/System if it reads MPEG-1 Video CD or does it read MPEG-1 Video CD ( non-standard ).

Try the second and see if it works.

Also download bitrate viewer from http://www.tecoltd.com and check that the mpeg you are producing are indeed reflecting the bitrate you are setting in the encoder.

kwag

[carlojazz]

you are right. there must be something wrong as the size you could have with that you setting must be around 758.7Mbytes, while you get more than 900! Anyway I wonder if a so low bitrate VCD could be accepted by standard VCD or DVD players, I think Nero will refuse to burn it!

Carlo

[Tomas]

If you get 900MB video then problem is that you are using "VCD-Standard" Multiplexing. It is so big because it multiplexes as video were at 1150 and audio at 224. No matter you are using lower bitrate. Just use "VCD-Nonstandard" Multiplexing.. Than you get as smallest MPG as possible.

Try this bitrate calulator :
http://www.tomzavodny.cz/projekty_en.php?page=program_avivcdbitcalc

[Shannafey]

Thanks, Tomas. I will give that bitrate calc a try and do as you say. Hopefully that will be the trick.

[Giuliano]

Using a bitrate calc that has never failed for me, I get the following:

I tried it tonight and ... it failed!
a 100 min film, wanted on 2x80min cd, resulted in an average of 1941+224 SVCD (max 2496)

Clearly it is more than 700 Mb, beeing (1941+224)*60*100/8 > 800 MB!
So the calculation give a file that, matematically, is larger thand the indicated CD.

Something doesn't work also with TMPGEnc !!
If the average is intanded to be a target for the encoder, the file should look something like 811 Mb, following the given forlmua above.
The generated file instead is something more than 1 Gb !!

Any idea ?

Giuliano

[kinneera]

Works just fine for me. If you're going to put 100 min. on 2 discs, there will be 50 min per disc. Thus:

(1941+224) = 2165 Kbps * 1024 = 2216960 bps / 8 = 277120 bytes/sec / 1024 = 270.625 kb/sec * 60 = 16237.5 kb/min * 50 = 811875 kb / 1024 = 792.84 MB on the disc - perfect for an 80 min CD and exactly consistent with the results of every encode I've ever done.

Keep in mind you must use CBR or 2-pass VBR, single pass VBR and CQ modes will not yield predicatable file sizes.

[Giuliano]

Works just fine for me.

811875 kb / 1024 = 792.84 MB on the disc - perfect for an 80 min CD and exactly consistent with the results of every encode I've ever done.
Keep in mind you must use CBR or 2-pass VBR, single pass VBR and CQ modes will not yield predicatable file sizes.

We reached the same conlusion but with a different verdict .-))
The problem is that I used 2-pass VBR, so I rightly expected the size of 800 Mb.
For 50 minutes TMPGenc produced a >1Gb of file !!

I also requested the motion precision "Highest quality" and the DC component precision at 10 bits. (I wonder if they really worth or not... any help?)
But this shouldn't care, because the averege should be a target to reach for TMPGEnc. Anyway :-)) !!
Is it something wrong with TMPGEnc and 2-pass VBR ?

Which encoder did you tested producing the right file size for 2-pass VBR ?

Giuliano

[sean madison]

the only catch to this is it will be non standard, want it to stay standard for 100 min, 110, 120? IM me on aim- shizzzon or email me- locooverrider@hotmail.com i got my temps ready to go specifially made for certain length vids.

U want vcd, ok i got em, u want svcd, ok i got em.

[kinneera]

Which encoder did you tested producing the right file size for 2-pass VBR ?

I regularly use TMPGEnc's 2-pass mode with no problems. Are you sure the file you're getting is only encoding 50 min? I recommend pre-encode cutting, using TMPGEnc's source range setting. You should also make sure its being multiplexed to the proper type of stream.

the only catch to this is it will be non standard, want it to stay standard for 100 min, 110, 120?

Sean, we've been through this with you before: if it is VCD, the only standard is 1150 Kbps video, 224 Kbps audio, 352x240/288 which will allow 74 min of video to a 74 min disc, anything else is not standard. For SVCD, a very low average bitrate will still fall within the spec. but such a low average will be unacceptable for anything but a very good DVD source with low-motion.

[Giuliano]

I regularly use TMPGEnc's 2-pass mode with no problems. Are you sure the file you're getting is only encoding 50 min?

Well what I did was to count the total number of frames (n), and put in batch a 2pas VBR from 1 to n/2 and from n/2 to n.
Is it wrong ?
(My check was: considering that the film has 150144 frames, because of the 25f/s PAL, it means if there are 6005 seconds, tht's to say 100 min and 5 secs)

I recommend pre-encode cutting, using TMPGEnc's source range setting. You should also make sure its being multiplexed to the proper type of stream.

what do you mean with "the proper type of stream" ?
In case you intended the ausio stream, I had only the original language.

Giuliano

[Giuliano]

= 811875 kb / 1024 = 792.84 MB on the disc - perfect for an 80 min CD and exactly consistent with the results of every encode I've ever done.

I reread the message: but a 80' cd is only 700Mb.

Did you intended it only in case or overburn ?

Giuliano

[kwag]

VCD's are burned in what's called mode-2. So a 74 minute CD will store 740MB and a 80 minute CD will store 800MB of data.

[kinneera]

what do you mean with "the proper type of stream" ?
In case you intended the ausio stream, I had only the original language.

I'm referring to the multiplexing mode - it should be set to "SuperVideo CD (MPEG2)", otherwise you might get extra padding bits.

[Sefy]

Shannafey, you might also want to try 1100k for Video and 112k for Audio, but if you are not getting the size you are supposed to, then I suggest you try the following, use the MPEG Tools to demuplex the MPG file you got, and then multiplex the created M1V/MP2 files, and use the Video-CD (Non-Standard).

I've recently noticed that sometimes TMPGEnc, although you specify certain bitrate, the file size still comes out the same as if you used the regular VCD, and if you demuplex and multiplex it back, then the file size is what it should be.

[Shannafey]

Thanks, Sefy. I will give that a try. Been going crazy, trying to get that size down.