Converting AVI to DVD using DVD Flick: low quality result

[e2p]

I tried DVD Flick, to convert AVI files to DVD format. The AVI files are DV AVI (dvsd codec) files captured from a DV camcorder via a 1394 port. The AVI files have a video bit rate around 25~30 Mbps, even though the video is 720 x 480 and the content is fairly lame, with no fast actions, just people sitting and talking, moving arms sometimes. However, even converting at 5 mbps bitrate, the resulting DVD still has conspicuous artifacts around people's arms when the arms move. The motion of the arms is not like trying to hit a fly in the air, but just normal hand gestures.

So why the converted DVD has so low quality? I suppose the DVD format can carry fast moving action content like a motorcycle running wild, and even showing the perspective of the rider with the whole background moving backward.

By the way, could the performance of the computer I use has anything to do with the low quality DVD produced by DVD Flick? I am using a Pentium III 533 MHz with 512MB memory, running XP service pack 3. I ran just one application (DVD Flick) and the Windows Task Manager, to see that memory usage is on order of 400 MB.

Some additional info about my process:

-Sony TRV 720 camcorder
-Use winDV to capture the video from camcorder; I have the impression that winDV just dumps what it receives 1394 and does not do separate decoding/encoding, true?
-GSPOT shows captured AVI files as using dvsd codec and 25~30 Mbps video bit rate and 1024 kbps audio bitrate
-DVD Flick to save DVD files on hard disk, not yet burned to DVD disks

Thanks!

[jagabo]

Your source is interlaced. See if you can get DVD Flick to deinterlace before saving. Also, video tape is a noisy medium. Don't expect it to compress as well as your typical DVD.

[manono]

Also, use a higher bitrate and VBR encoding unless the length of the video prohibits it. And reencode the audio to something smaller (AC3?).

And if those 'artifacts' are just normal interlacing, play it on the TV and you should no longer see them. Or turn on deinterlacing in whatever computer software player you use.

[jagabo]

Oh, sorry, I missed that you're converting to DVD. Don't deinterlace. Just make sure the program knows your video is interlaced and bottom-field-first so it handles it properly. Then the DVD player and TV will display it properly.

[PuzZLeR]

Yes, DV(-AVI) should be encoded with respect to BFF.

But, I'm still not sure, does this have to do with not handling interlace or just a bad quality encode to MPEG-2/DvD produced by the ffmpeg under the hood of DvDFlick?

Last I tested, which is a few years ago I'll admit, ffmpeg was built for speed and low bitrates. It didn't fare as well quality-wise with others at the higher quality/higher bitrate levels (such as the 5 mb/s objective here).

I can suggest that the O/P (e2p) experiment with a different, yet proven, stand-alone MPEG-2 encoder like HEnc (free) and CCE before inputting into a DvD Author tool.

[poisondeathray]

I agree with puzzler - ffmpeg doen't produce very good quality mpeg2 streams

you could try avs2dvd which has the option to use hcenc, and will author your dvd as well

By the way, could the performance of the computer I use has anything to do with the low quality DVD produced by DVD Flick?

No, it will just take longer

[e2p]

Thanks for all the experts' replies.

I did two things based upon the deinterlace suggestion:

1. I used VLC media player, enabled deinterlace, and played with the several deinterlace modes, discard, blend, bob, linear, x, yadif, yadif (2x), etc. Video quality noticeably improved with blend, yadif, and yadif (2x). I don't know what bob, x, or yadif means. The VLC documentation is not adequate. I also tried "Post Processing" even though I am sure what it does. The best combo appears to be yadif (2x) and some level of post processing.

2. I used DVD Flick to re-convert one DV AVI file, with "Deinterlace source" enabled. The result video does not look much different from the ones obtained without enabling the option. Turning on deinterlace in VLC when viewing the video gives similar improvement as in 1.

My question is then if and how a DVD player box would know if deinterlace is needed or not, and which deinterlace method to use? And does a DVD play even have multiple deinterlace options?

I downloaded and used DVD Flick based on kinda good reviews of it.

What is BFF?

But I will try AVS2DVD.

Thank you all for the feedback.

[jagabo]

My question is then if and how a DVD player box would know if deinterlace is needed or not, and which deinterlace method to use? And does a DVD play even have multiple deinterlace options?

If you encode as interlaced DVD either the DVD player or the TV will deinterlace on playback. Interlace was the normal state of analog TV before the switch to digital so all TVs know how to deal with it. You generally don't have any choice of algorithms -- the DVD player or TV will use whatever it has.

[PuzZLeR]

What is BFF?

TFF and BFF are both different types of interlaced formats. And yes, interlacing is something adopted by video "decoders" since the 1930s.

For the purposes of this thread:

TFF = Top Field First (most MPEG-2 streams)
BFF = Bottom Field First (DV and a minority of MPEG-2 streams)

There are plenty of tutorials explaining the differences in the fields.

Since you're encoding DV, you have to enable BFF in your encoder. Never tried DvDFlick so I wouldn't know, but if the assumption is TFF for a BFF source, the resulting encode will produce worse results. I'm sure there's a setting/parameter somewhere.

If you want try a better MPEG-2 encoder, such as with CCE:

Load video -> double click on it -> Advanced -> enter 0 in the offset line for BFF Source, 1 for TFF Source (you can even set the output to BFF by unchecking "output top field first stream")

With H C Encoder:

Settings 1 tab -> Under "interlacing options" all you need do is click "Digital Video source" (for DV).

Keep in mind, whether you deinterlace or not, all DvD video must be encoded, or flagged, "interlaced" (either TFF or BFF). Even visually progressive streams, or content that you deinterlace and remove the lines, still must be "interlaced" according to the spec.

[e2p]

So I tried AVStoDVD (2.3.2), using the HCenc codec with 2-pass and VBR.

Whether I use BFF or TFF, the resulting video still needs to have deinterlace turned on in VLC viewer, to reduce the sawtooth-like artifacts around moving objects.

With deinterlace enabled, the AVStoDVD generated video looks slightly better than that by DVD Flick, at the same average bitrate. The slight quality improvement may be due to variable bit rate. DVD Flick now supports only CBR.

[jagabo]

So I tried AVStoDVD (2.3.2), using the HCenc codec with 2-pass and VBR.

Whether I use BFF or TFF, the resulting video still needs to have deinterlace turned on in VLC viewer, to reduce the sawtooth-like artifacts around moving objects.

Yes. But if you burn to a DVD and play it on a DVD player and TV it will look "normal". DVD players and TVs know how to handle interlaced video.

[e2p]

OK, to wrap this thread up, I copied the AUDIO_TS and VIDEO_TS folders created by AVStoDVD to a DVD disc, together with another folder of image files. A standalone set top DVD player plays the videos nicely on an LCD TV, with no noticeable artifacts observable on a computer, perhaps due to longer viewing distance but surely due to no interlacing effect.

At 5 mbps average encoding rate and 500 kbps to 8.5 mbps variable rate, the DVD videos appear to capture all the details there are on the digital 8 tape.

The set top DVD player skips/ignores the image file folder which can be read on a computer.

Thanks to all.

[manono]

A standalone set top DVD player plays the videos nicely on an LCD TV, with no noticeable artifacts observable on a computer, perhaps due to longer viewing distance but surely due to no interlacing effect.

It's nothing to do with the viewing distance. On a progressive display (a Hi-Def widescreen LCD TV set, for example) it's being deinterlaced. On an old CRT, it's playing the fields. Either way, no interlacing.

The set top DVD player skips/ignores the image file folder which can be read on a computer.

That's always the case - standard DVD players can't read any extra folders included (except a JACKET folder sometimes). Extra picture or text material (I sometimes include PDF files in mine) can only be read from a computer.

[PuzZLeR]

The set top DVD player skips/ignores the image file folder which can be read on a computer.

That's actually a good thing. I too, like Manono, keep extra content there. Much of it is personal info such as what was in the Source, or how I encoded it, etc, on .txt or .pdf, or image files for any cover I design, logos, or even links, etc.

I actually DON'T want the DvD player to recognize anything other than the VIDEO_TS, AUDIO_TS (left blank) or any jacket folder if available, and none do that I know of. The extra content is really for me, or others, to read on a PC, if this info is needed.