file in Virtualdub has strange colors when opened

[jagabo]

That's an awesome in-depth explanation. Thanks very much for taking the time to explain this in such detail. So you think the benefits gained by doing the IVTC is worth the tradeoff of it perhaps not being perfect? More than anything else I'm just afraid of it deciding to remove the wrong frames, especially on hybrid video like the one I posted.

Your video isn't hybrid. Test1 is pure 60 fields per second video and should be encoded as such. Test2 is straight 3:2 pulldown. It doesn't require any special treatment with TFM() and TDecimate(). Unless you're dealing with anime you are not likely to see any hybrid (mix of 24p, 30p, and 30i) video.

Could you tell me then what to set in CCE if I use TFM(pp=0).TDecimate(hybrid=1) to assure a compliant DVD? Obviously I would be leaving "Inv. 3:2 pulldown" unchecked because that's what TFM().TDecimate() is doing, but what about these:...

After TMF().TDecimate() or TFM(pp=0).TDecimate(hybrid=1) you have 23.976 fps progressive frames. You encode as 23.976 fps progressive with 3:2 or 2:3 pulldown flags. IVTC does not change the running time so you don't have to adjust the audio. Do not deinterlace. Do not IVTC again in CCE. It doesn't matter what field order or Offset Line you select (although if you set offset line to one your picture will be shifte up by one scanline). You don't need to change the DC Precision or Block Scan Order. You can use whatever filtering options you want (whatever looks best for your particular video, if you're filtering in AviSynth you may want to disable the filters in CCE).

If I know how to set these options to work right using TFM(pp=0).TDecimate(hybrid=1) I think I'll give it a try. Also, how should my script look then? Where do I put this? Here is my script as above:

AviSource("C:\file.avi")
SeparateFields()
odd=SelectOdd().GuavaComb(mode = "NTSC").PeachSmoother()
evn=SelectEven().GuavaComb(mode = "NTSC").PeachSmoother()
Interleave(evn,odd)
Weave()

That script is for interlaced video (Test1). Or if you leave your telecined video (Test2) telecined and encode as 29.97i. If you want to IVTC you should use:

AviSource("C:\file.avi")
GuavaComb(mode = "NTSC")
TFM() #or TFM(pp=0)
TDecimate() # or TDecimate(hybrid=1)
PeachSmoother()

Normally you would do all your filtering after TFM().TDecimate(). But GuavaComb() must be run before. The output of that script is 23.976 fps progressive frames. TFM().TDecimate() and TFM(pp=0).TDeimate(hybrid=1) will deliver almost exactly the same results with your telecined video.

Out of curiosity thoguh, if the dvd's are left telecined, can't a progresive dvd player apply 3:2 pulldown and inverse telecine as it is playing? Or is that not ideal?

It's possible for a DVD player or HDTV to IVTC a hard telecined video. But you will get worse image quality from MPEG encoding at 30i vs 24p (more macroblock artifacts, worse color resolution). In my experience most DVD players and many HDTVs will perform a simple bob deinterlace when encountering interlaced or telecined video. 120 and 240 Hz HDTVs will IVTC but maybe not do as well as TFM().TDecimate(). They'll also have problems with mixed frame rate material.

[manono]

Under pulldown, Inv. 3:2 pulldown is unselected by default, 2:3 is ticked, and "deinterlacing is unticked. . Should I change anything here?

If you want pulldown applied you might check the pulldown box. Me, I just encode at 23.976fps and apply pulldown afterwards with DGPulldown.

Would there be any harm in leaving it like that if my source was fully telecined with no true interlaced?

If it's telecined all the way, it's not a hybrid. Safest is to figure what you have so you know how to set up your filters. As jagabo said, IVTCs make mistakes. Don't give a chance to make one if you can help it.

Under framerate, 29.97 is ticked by default for me, and Rate conv is ticked. I'm very confused over what Rate conv will do. And I will be putting out 23.976 right? So what do I do here?

After IVTC your script is 23.976fps. Check that in CCE. And don't ever let CCE do any Rate Conversions. Any converting that has to be done, do it in your scripts.

"Sync with video" is checked by default here. I'll just be outputting the Wav to convert in BeHappy, but now I don't know aht to set here because of the inverse telecine.

Didn't poisondeathray and I both recommend to you not to let CCE handle your audio?

Under "picture quality", Progressive frame is unchecked and Block Scan Order is set to auto? Do I select Progressive here now?

If encoding as progressive 23.976fps, check Progressive and Zig-zag.

Lastly, can low stay ticked here or do I want to untick it?

Can't answer that one right now as I'm not on my encoding computer.

AviSource("C:\file.avi")
SeparateFields()
odd=SelectOdd().GuavaComb(mode = "NTSC").PeachSmoother()
evn=SelectEven().GuavaComb(mode = "NTSC").PeachSmoother()
Interleave(evn,odd)
Weave()

If your source is progressive after IVTC, you don't need any of that separatefields stuff. Just filter.

Out of curiosity thoguh, if the dvd's are left telecined, can't a progresive dvd player apply 3:2 pulldown and inverse telecine as it is playing? Or is that not ideal?

All DVD players ouput interlaced 29.97fps (or really 59.94 fields per second). If outputting to a progressive display (a hi-def LCD, for example) and if the player is set up for progressive scan, that interlaced output is 'intercepted' and then treated in one of a couple of ways. A flag reading player can read the RFF and TFF flags and drop the repeated fields and output only whole frames in a 323232 pattern (of frames this time, and not fields). If it encounters hard telecine it can only deinterlace. A better cadence reading player, on the other hand, can do the same in the presence of the flags, but it has the additional capability of reading the cadence to output progressive frames. It can, in effect, apply IVTC on the fly. It's still better for encoder efficiency and output quality to encode as 23.976fps with pulldown. The vast majority of the DVD players with progressive scan are flag readers and can't IVTC.

Edit: Oh, GuavaComb gets used before the IVTC? Does anyone still use those filters? They were obsolete 5 years ago, weren't they?

[jagabo]

Here's an AVI with mixed frame rate sources. First is a few seconds of telecined 24p, then a few seconds of 30p, and finally a few seconds of telecined 24p again. Examine the video closely with VirtualDub. Then try both:

AviSource("hybrid.avi")
TFM()
TDecimate()

and

AviSource("hybrid.avi")
TFM(pp=0)
TDecimate(hybrid=1)

and see the differences. Personally, I'd rather have slightly jerky video than blended fields/frames.

When CCE performs an IVTC on this video it will detect the hard pulldown in the first section and IVTC it to 24p with pulldown flags. When it hits the 30p section it will stop IVTCing and switch to 30p encoding. It will go back to 24p with pulldown flags when it gets to the hard pulldown section at the end of the video.

[sasuweh]

Okay, I'll give that clip a try. Thanks for all the tips here.

"Didn't poisondeathray and I both recommend to you not to let CCE handle your audio?"

How should I get the audio track from the avi then? I thought CCE wasn't handling the audio if it is simply outputting a wav, I figured it was being unprocessed.

If GuavaComb is obsolete, and no longer used, then I probably don't want to use it. Is PeachSmoother still used? I read about these on other forums, and maybe I was reading old information. I don't want to overfilter for no reason, but I had read good things about PeachSmoother, and some had mentioned using it with GuavaComb.

[manono]

How do you get the audio? Demux it.

[sasuweh]

I ran both of the scripts above on the hybrid clip. I set me CCE settings as advised above. I definitely can see the difference between the two, but I'm not sure which is better.

What is a good demuxer? I probably already have what I need to do that. I know I have things that demux, but what would you recommend? I tried Avidemux, but for some reason, after loading the AVI in, I can't select anythng under "audio" All that is available is "copy". I should be seeing a choice of mp3, wav, etc. from what I read about it. EDIT: I tried the standalone zip version and that worked fine. I saved it as PCM wav.

One thing I noticed, you mentioned if I want pulldown applied I might want to check the pulldown box. But the "pulldown" box is grayed out for me in CCE. I can select between 2:3 and 3:2, that's it. I have 3:2 selected.


I also ran both of the above scripts on my test1 and test2 clips, but I think I need to make a longer clip to really see the difference. I dropped both .mpv clips into Gspot and Mediainfo out of curiosity. Mediainfo reports Progressive 2:3 pulldown 23.976 NTSC 4:2:0, Gspot reports interlaced 3:2 pulldown 23.976 NTSC, same clips. I wonder why Mediainfo says 2:3 progressive and Gspot says 3:2 interlaced.

[jagabo]

I ran both of the scripts above on the hybrid clip. I set me CCE settings as advised above. I definitely can see the difference between the two, but I'm not sure which is better.

Yes, it's a matter of personal taste. Now IVTC the file with CCE and see how it adapts to the video. The results are better than either script. But I don't know how well CCE's IVTC works in general.

What is a good demuxer? I probably already have what I need to do that. I know I have things that demux, but what would you recommend?

For AVI I use VirtualDub.

One thing I noticed, you mentioned if I want pulldown applied I might want to check the pulldown box. But the "pulldown" box is grayed out for me in CCE. I can select between 2:3 and 3:2, that's it. I have 3:2 selected.

I think you have the "for DVD" option enabled. It doesn't give you a choice because pulldown must be applied to a 23.976 fps source for DVD compatibility.

I also ran both of the above scripts on my test1 and test2 clips, but I think I need to make a longer clip to really see the difference.

The scripts shouldn't be used on Test1. If you do, look for comb artifacts and jerky motion from the pp=0/hybrid=1 script. Find a medium speed panning shot and try that.

With Test2 you shouldn't see any real difference between the two. It is not a hybrid frame rate video.

I dropped both .mpv clips into Gspot and Mediainfo out of curiosity. Mediainfo reports Progressive 2:3 pulldown 23.976 NTSC 4:2:0, Gspot reports interlaced 3:2 pulldown 23.976 NTSC, same clips. I wonder why Mediainfo says 2:3 progressive and Gspot says 3:2 interlaced.

Neither program actually parses the GOPs to see what the real pulldown pattern is. They just see that pulldown is used and call it 2:3 or 3:2 pulldown. They show the same thing with other pulldown patterns, like the 3:2:3:2:2 pulldown pattern used to convert 25p (PAL) to 30i (NTSC).

[sasuweh]

"I think you have the "for DVD" option enabled. It doesn't give you a choice because pulldown must be applied to a 23.976 fps source for DVD compatibility."

So I want to disable the "for DVD" option and then select the pulldown box? Oh wait, I think you mean that if "DVD" is selected then it automatically applies pulldown, is that it? So leaving the "DVD" box checked automatically takes care of the pulldown?

"The scripts shouldn't be used on Test1. If you do, look for comb artifacts and jerky motion from the pp=0/hybrid=1 script. Find a medium speed panning shot and try that."

But test1 and test2 came from the save video. I'd say about 50 minutes of the video are like test2 (telecined), and the other 5 or 6 minutes spread in segments throughout are like test1.

"Yes, it's a matter of personal taste. Now IVTC the file with CCE and see how it adapts to the video. The results are better than either script. But I don't know how well CCE's IVTC works in general."

So I might in fact be better off letting CCE handle it?

[manono]

So leaving the "DVD" box checked automatically takes care of the pulldown?

Apparently. So I was wrong about having you check the box. I always leave it unchecked because I do all sorts of things (like encode at non-standard framerates) that are (initially) not DVD compliant.

[jagabo]

"I think you have the "for DVD" option enabled. It doesn't give you a choice because pulldown must be applied to a 23.976 fps source for DVD compatibility."

So I want to disable the "for DVD" option and then select the pulldown box? Oh wait, I think you mean that if "DVD" is selected then it automatically applies pulldown, is that it? So leaving the "DVD" box checked automatically takes care of the pulldown?

Yes.

But test1 and test2 came from the save video. I'd say about 50 minutes of the video are like test2 (telecined), and the other 5 or 6 minutes spread in segments throughout are like test1.

Ah, I see. I didn't realize they were from the same source. Then you would have to handle the sections separately. And join all the clips together after MPEG encoding.

So I might in fact be better off letting CCE handle it?

Yes. Although, as noted, I don't know how well CCE's IVTC works in general. But it does have that automatic frame rate adjustment for hybrid videos.

[manono]

So I might in fact be better off letting CCE handle it?

Yes.

'Might' being the operative word here. I quite often encode pieces separately and then join them together during authoring. Say you have a telecined (hard or soft) main video with interlaced credits. For the main video, I'll IVTC in the script if necessary and encode it with better quality. The credits I'll encode as interlaced 29.97fps at a much poorer quality, the idea being to remove bits from the end credits for use in improving the main video. This can sometimes provide a significant boost to the quality of the feature. Heck, even if the entire thing is progressive 23.976fps, the main movie can be improved by lowering the quality of the end credits which are sometimes quite long for major Hollywood features (10 or 15 minutes long).

[sasuweh]

Very interesting. Sounds like you both really know what you are doing with this stuff. I'm not sure if I'm ready for encoding separately and joining. I'm sorry I didn't explain better that test1 and test2 are from the same video. Well, in a case like that, I wonder if I should give CCE a shot then and see how it does with hybrid videos with its auto framerate adjustment.

Would there be any settings in CCE I should make different than mentioned above if letting CCE handle the IVTC? (Tick inverse pulldown, 3:2, 23.976 framerate, untick rate conv., tick progressive, auto block scan order, disable audio file and untick "sync with video"?

Would CCE handling the hybrid video affect the fact that I've got the audio output separate from CCE and then muxed back in with muxman? I mean would the audio sync/timing be off, or would it still be in sync even with it auto adjusting the framerate for the hybrid?

[jagabo]

CCE will not change the running time.

In another thread manono posted this link to a site with a good explanation of film telecine and inverse telecine:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_4/dvd-benchmark-part-5-progressive-10-2000.html

[sasuweh]

Okay, I've been trying a few things here. With my hybrid AVI, none of the scripts seemed to work well with the interlaced parts. Too much herky-jerky motion. The reverse telecined parts looked good, so I may use the scripts on the captures that are fully telecined. I also let CCE do an IVTC, and it also had the same issues with the hybrid. To keep things simple I might just encode the hybrid capture as interlaced and be done with it.

What would you recommend for trimming my captures? Since I can't use my trimmed captures because Pinnacle Studio did something wacky with them, I still need to trim them. I was going to use Avidemux, except for this major problem:


Problems
It can only output AVI-DV with PAL settings(720x576 25fps).

I know how to do it in Virtualdub, and I like it, but I am still concerned over the audio interleaving . I don't know if I should tick "enable audio/video interleaving". Half the comments I read say ticking it can result in audio sync issues, and the other half of the comments say not ticking it can cause audio sync issues. For instance, divx-digest says this under a guide for cutting avi files:

"The primary reason for audio synch problems is that audio interleaving option in VirtualDub's "Audio" menu. You should uncheck the "Enable audio/video interleaving" option and make sure the audio track delay setting is at 0. Also, it is wise to cut on keyframes to avoid similar audio problems."

I just want an exact copy of the file as is, except trimmed. I don't want to do anything that alters the audio or video. Avidemux seems perfect except for the PAL limitation.

Virtualdub has this to say:

"Enable audio/video interleaving If this option is selected, audio blocks are interleaved between video frames throughout the file. If not, all of the audio is placed at the end."

"Interleaving audio and video is not necessary unless the file is stored on a medium that streams much more efficiently than it handles random access, such as a CD-ROM drive or transmission over the Internet. High-speed devices such as hard disks can handle playback from non-interleaved files without problem, which is a consideration as interleaving isn't free -- it costs a small amount of overhead in the file size."

But I don't know what that means and which I should select. I obviously want whatever the original file is. If my original capture isn't interleaved, I want it to remain that way. In effect I want smartrendering, which is what Pinnacle was supposed to have done. I also read that Vdub adds some information into the output files , so they are not actually a direct stream copy.


Or would Vdubmod be any different? It doesn't seem to have an option for Enable audio/video interleaving, though it does have an option called "sync to audio".

[jagabo]

Audio in AVI files is almost always interleaved. Leave the audio interleave set at 1 frame. After you've edited some video check the A/V sync. Sync problems usually occur with VBR encoded MP3 audio, not with PCM audio in DV AVI. I don't recall ever seeing problems with A/V sync with DV AVI files in VirtualDub.

What the VirtualDub text means:

The process of playing a video basically consists of reading a frame of video and a frame's worth of audio from the file, displaying the frame and playing the audio. Then the next frame of video and audio is read from the file, displayed and played, etc. If the audio isn't interleaved it's all in one chuck at the end (or beginning) of the file. That's not a problem for playback from a hard disk. The drive can seek to the end of the file very quickly (a few milliseconds) to fetch the audio data, then back to the beginning of the file to fetch the video data, back and forth, over and over. But optical drives (CD, DVD) are much slower. They can take a second or more so to seek across the disc. If the audio and video aren't interleaved (ie, the audio data for each frame isn't right next to the video data), all those seek delays screw up the playback.

[sasuweh]

I know that my captures are type 2. That means that the audio is stored twice, doesn't it? Since both type-1 and type-2 contain interleaved audio (with type 2 containing the audio a second time), shouldn't I select interleaving?

I ran one of my captures through Vdub twice, both times with direct video stream and direct audio stream ticked. Once interleaved and once unticked. When playing back the unticked version in Media Player Classic, it came up with this warning:

"This AVI file was not prepared for sequential reading, the alternative "Avi Splitter" will now let the default one handle it. The complete reinterleaving of this file is strongly recommended before burning it onto a slow media like cd-rom.".

And when jumping to various parts of the video, there is a brief delay before the audio kicks in. So it seems like ticking "enable audio/video interleaving" is the way to go then.

Interestingly, when I drop the output files from Vmod into Gspot, it no longer reports "unneeded bytes at end of file". It says file length is correct. So I guess it fixed whatever was wrong with it (probably something to do with Pinnacle again).

[jagabo]

I know that my captures are type 2. That means that the audio is stored twice, doesn't it?

Yes.

I ran one of my captures through Vdub twice, both times with direct video stream and direct audio stream ticked. Once interleaved and once unticked. When playing back the unticked version... when jumping to various parts of the video, there is a brief delay before the audio kicks in. So it seems like ticking "enable audio/video interleaving" is the way to go then.

I already told you that.

Interestingly, when I drop the output files from Vmod into Gspot, it no longer reports "unneeded bytes at end of file". It says file length is correct. So I guess it fixed whatever was wrong with it (probably something to do with Pinnacle again).

Is that file over 4GB?

[sasuweh]

Yeah, it's about 5.5GB.

[sasuweh]

Thanks for all the help here. I have a much better idea now of how to do the things I want to do with these transfers.

[jagabo]

Weird about GSpot. But it does have bugs relating to file size. I wouldn't worry about it.