Appropriate pixels?

[bsuska]

I shoot HDV (1080i/30fps)(1440 x 1080). I'm wondering which square HD format does this format translate into. I understand for YouTube that moving to a 1280 x 720P format for upload will work best since HD computer video is usually at this res. Can I get away with converting this 1080i format to 1920 x 1080p? Or is there some upscaling done here? I've also read that the Blu-Ray spec allows for HDV (1080i) natively. So if I was to go to Blu-Ray, I would just stay in this format and let the DVD player do the upscaling (or downscaling) for TV.

Confused...

Thanks...

[aedipuss]

1440x1080 HDV is a wide pixel format. in square pixels it is 1920x1080. converting to 1280x720 also works because they are all 16x9 formats. for youtube it is better to shoot 30p so that the HDV 30i doesn't have to be deinterlaced.

[bsuska]

From what I read, my Canon XH-A1s doesn't shoot with a "true" progressive CCD, so I'd like to stay away from that. Anyone have any ideas on the Blu-Ray question?

[poisondeathray]

1440x1080i60 is supported for blu-ray . 30p isn't

[edDV]

I shoot HDV (1080i/30fps)(1440 x 1080). I'm wondering which square HD format does this format translate into. I understand for YouTube that moving to a 1280 x 720P format for upload will work best since HD computer video is usually at this res. Can I get away with converting this 1080i format to 1920 x 1080p? Or is there some upscaling done here?

Square pixel conversion would be to 1920x1080i/29.97. This is done by a simple horizontal resample 1440 to 1920. I'm not sure if YouTube accepts native HDV. If You send 1920x1080i/29.97, they will deinterlace to 1920x1080p/30.

Conversion by you to 1280x720p/29.97 requires a deinterlace and resize. In theory you could do this better than YouTube using advanced AVIsynth filters. This will take some learning curve and processing time.

I've also read that the Blu-Ray spec allows for HDV (1080i) natively. So if I was to go to Blu-Ray, I would just stay in this format and let the DVD player do the upscaling (or downscaling) for TV.

Confused...

Thanks...

Yes, no need to re-encode HDV for Blu-Ray. 1440x1080i/29.97 Mpeg2 is directly supported but you do need to convert the wrapper from m2t to m2ts if you want an "AVCHD" structure DVDR playable on most Blu-Ray players.

MultiAVCHD will handle the container conversion and create the "AVCHD" DVDR file structure with your MPeg2 m2ts files in the BDMV/STREAM folder and even burn the DVDR if Imgburn is linked. See the MultiAVCHD tutorial.


PS: I should add the caveat that the formal Blu-Ray spec says 1440x1080i is only supported for h.264 and VC-1 but so far it appears that most if not all players that accept the AVCHD file structure on DVDR will decode and properly play 1440x1080i MPeg2 from the STREAM directory. If you are concerned about being formally correct, you would need to resample to 1920x1080i MPeg2.

Another caveat is some very early Blu-Ray players had a max bitrate of 17 Mb/s from the red laser DVDR so in those cases, 25 Mb/s HDV or 24 Mb/s AVCHD may not play or could skip. This doesn't seem to be a problem on current model Blu-Ray players.

1440x1080 23.976p, 24p, 25p, 30p HDV should also play from DVDR if the stream bitrate is properly flagged. This could take some experimentation. I can't find anyone in Google saying there is a problem.

[aedipuss]

30p HDV should play, as the stream is flagged 30i, the only thing different from 30i is that both fields from a single frame are recorded simultaneously, so that when put back together they make a progressive frame.

[edDV]

Also true for "24F" and 24"PA" as they come from the camcorder with repeat fields to 29.97i.

[bsuska]

Thanks for the indepth answers. That helps a lot.

I'm finding that one of the biggest cogs in getting good video is the whole deinterlacing thing. I know that Premiere sucks when it comes to deinterlacing, so I did my homework and started using some Avisynth filters to do the deinterlacing. As time went on and the need to create H.264 mp4 video become more of a necessity I stumbled across HandBrake. Through some forum questions I was told that the "decomb" feature that Handbrake offers was essentially using Avisynth providing good results when I brought my interlaced source footage in. This workflow used to work well, but now that I have switched to HD, things have changed. Since I use a Matrox system, when I export out of Premiere, my intermediate file is usually wrapped with Matrox (this saves a ton of exporting time). It always seemed to make sense to keep my files in their original state until they reached my final encoder. This worked well with standard DV because Handbrake could read my Matrox DV file. Now when I export my HD Matrox file, it is encoded with an Matrox HD I Frame (or something to that respect) codec and Handbrake bombs when I try and import. I guess what I'm asking...what should my workflow now be with these HD projects. Should I export out of Premiere to a lossless codec (HuffYUV or Lagarith) and then use Virtual Dub and Avisynth to deinterlace. From there save as lossless again and then bring that file into Handbrake? The problem with this is the insane amount of time it takes to render a lossless file. I also have Sorenson Squeeze, and that will read my Matrox propriety codec, but I've been less than impressed with my resulting file.

Thanks for the help...

[poisondeathray]

I'm not sure what matrox codecs you are using, but avisynth can read the free one (mpeg2 in avi)
http://www.matrox.com/video/en/support/windows/vfw_software_codecs/downloads/softwares/version1.0/


Or you can use some lossless codec , or even uncompressed. Your script can specify the deinterlace, so you can skip a step instead of using avisynth , then encoding. The only reason you might use that extra step, is if you are using slow filters and doing a 2pass encode (this way the filters are used once instead of twice - it ends up being significantly faster)

AVISource("video.avi")
ConvertToYV12(interlaced=true)
#some deinterlacer

If you've had time to experiment with the various deinterlacers, you will find the good ones are very slow (e.g. mcbob, tempgaussmc_beta2)

I think handbrake can accept .avs files. If not, there are plenty of GUIs that can e.g. ripbot264, megui, xvid4psp, etc.... Some of them even write the script for you and allow you the choice of several deinterlacers (e.g. xvid4psp)

BTW, handbrake's "decomb" isn't very good. It's basically using yadif (which is a fast, lowish quality deinterlacer)selectively on combed frames

[bsuska]

I export out of Premiere with the Matrox MPEG-2 I-frame HD at 1440 x 1080 (interlaced).

Forgive my ignorance, but I don't follow when you say - "your script can specify the deinterlace". What program would I use to open this script? The script I usually write, I open with Virtual Dub. Since Virtual Dub will not export to H.264 I would need to export to another lossless file, correct?

If there was a way to get Handbrake to read my Matrox MPEG-2 I frame HD file natively, you would still not suggest relying on the DeComb feature to handle the deinterlacing?

[poisondeathray]

you can use notepad or avsp to open the script. I would suggest learning to use avsp, as it provides additional functions like preview (f5), macros, sllders

e.g.

AVISource("premiere.export.avi")
ConvertToYV12(interlaced=true)
TempGaussMC_beta2()
SelectEven()
LanczosResize(1280,720)


If you're doing this for web, you need to 1/2 the framerate (TGMC is a bobber, so it will bob to 60p, and most web video hosts will only support 30p), hence the "selecteven()" (or you could use selectodd() )

You don't need vdub. You can feed that .avs script directly into some GUI like ripbot, megui, xvid4psp. (actually I don't think handbrake likes avs scripts)

If you were doing a 2pass encode (for specific bitrate), then you might consider using a lossless intermediate first (because TGMC is slow filter). Otherwise you could use a crf encode (quality mode)

If there was a way to get Handbrake to read my Matrox MPEG-2 I frame HD file natively, you would still not suggest relying on the DeComb feature to handle the deinterlacing?

I wouldn't recommend using handbrake's decomb. I just did a quick test and it is using yadif. It leaves "dot artifacts" residual from deinterlacing - these "eat up" bitrate and are detrimental for encoding efficiency (important for streaming in if you want quality)

[bsuska]

Okay, so export out of Premiere with the Matrox MPEG 2-I frame HD codec. Open my Avisynth file in ripbot, megui, xvid4psp and save as H.264 with those programs?

[poisondeathray]

yes, that's what I would do (if you wanted absolute best quality, i would export uncompressed, or lossless)

you haven't stated your goals, but web videos usually require processing and optimization for quality at low bitrates (stabilization, denoising, optimal deinterlacing), since bandwidth is a limitation. With blu-ray, you have high bitrates and it's not as much of a concern

[bsuska]

For the most part everything I'm doing will go on the web. Blu-ray may happen down the road. Just intially wanted to get informed. I know this is every changing and completely dependent on your audience, but any hints on what the "industry" is using for bitrate concerning web video. I've heard 500 kbits/sec is the going rate?

[poisondeathray]

For the most part everything I'm doing will go on the web. Blu-ray may happen down the road. Just intially wanted to get informed. I know this is every changing and completely dependent on your audience, but any hints on what the "industry" is using for bitrate concerning web video. I've heard 500 kbits/sec is the going rate?

500kb/s for SD video , it would be too low of a bitrate for most kinds of HD video (maybe it would be ok for still motion, "talking heads", interview type footage could be ok)

Even Vimeo , Youtube use 2-3Mb/s for 720p

[bsuska]

Okay, thanks so much for you help. Now to download ripbot, megui, xvid4psp and get acquanted. Do you have a preference?

[poisondeathray]

ripbot would be the easiest/simplest to use

I prefer megui because it has the most control over encoding parameters (but most difficult to use)

If you're hosting your own videos, those bitrates mentioned above are common. But if you are uploading to 3rd party sites (like vimeo, yt, exposureroom) , you need to upload much higher bitrates (because they re-encode the videos)

[aedipuss]

if you are using pp cs5 or cs4 you might try exporting native HDV mpeg-2, not matrox. pp will only recode the parts it needs to and leave the rest alone. handbrake will accept HDV as source video.

[bsuska]

I'm still on CS3. Thanks so much again....

[bsuska]

Poisondeathray...you still out there? Anyway, not that you are a RipBot expert, but it appears that I have to my source footage in separate audio and video files?

[poisondeathray]

no you don't

why do you say that ?

[bsuska]

This is the Avisynth script I'm using -

Load_Stdcall_Plugin("C:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\yadif.dll")
AVISource("C:\Documents and Settings\bsuska\Desktop\abc climber.avi")
ConvertToYV12(interlaced=true)
Yadif(mode=0,order=0) #bottom field first
LanczosResize(512,288)

When my file is finished encoding there is no audio.

I tried just importing the .avi (dv) file directly and the resulting file has audio. That leads me to believe that there is something with my script? Do you see any red flags or am I missing something in RipBot?

[poisondeathray]

if you add info() to the end of the script, and preview the avs in vdub or avsp, does it report audio?

did you select audio parameters in ripbot?

you're just testing right? yadif really isn't that great (speed is good, quality is meh...)

[bsuska]

Does that info() tag tell me about my source? Cause yes, it reports audio (16 bit, 48,000 KHz)...which is spot on.

I did select audio parameters. 64 Kbps.

It looks like Ripbot is automatically filling in the source path...if I click the "..." it brings up an Explorer window, but I believe I would at this point need to find an audio file only. (I think this would be for changing the audio). Overall, it seems really cut and dry...really not too many things to click.

[poisondeathray]

Yes, info() tells you what the avs script "sees" and is passing on to the encoder. There is nothing wrong with your script that I can see

If you use mediainfo on your output file, does it report audio? or use different media player like mpchc or vlc? (maybe you have playback problem)

I haven't used ripbot in a long time, maybe there is a problem with the current version you are using ? It's pretty straight forward to use.

If you can't figure it out, try xvid4psp

[bsuska]

Checked Media Info

The resulting file from Avisynth and RipBot has these parameters:

Codec - mp4a: MPEG-4 AAC LC
Info - 24000Hz 3 kb/s tot , stereo (2/0)

The file from RipBot that does have audio has these parameters:

Codec - mp4a: MPEG-4 AAC LC
Info - 24000Hz 64 kb/s tot , stereo (2/0)

The "3 kb/s tot" seems a tad alarming...

[poisondeathray]

something is weird, because earlier you said it was 48KHz when you used info() , but both are reporting 24KHz

I'm not sure what is going on , are you using a current version of ripbot? maybe try an older one or another program

[bsuska]

Yes, I'm using the most current. I assumed that because I was selecting a lower bit rate (64 Kbps) that is was automatically resampling from 48KHz to 24KHz. Your saying that should not be the case?

I'll try an older one...

[poisondeathray]

Yes, I'm using the most current. I assumed that because I was selecting a lower bit rate (64 Kbps) that is was automatically resampling from 48KHz to 24KHz. Your saying that should not be the case?

I'll try an older one...

I don't think it should. It should be up to the end user to resample audio IMO. I'll download the newest version and check...

This version seems a little buggy, maybe try another program like megui or xvid4psp

[bsuska]

Just installed xvid4psp and my avisynth resulting mp4 file works. You are right though...all of the parameters available can be a quite overwhelming. Do you know which version of ripbot you used in the past that worked? There is quite the list of older versions.