Digital Master vs DVCAM for HDV

[Winsordawson]

I was asked to record an interview next week on a MiniDV Camcorder (specifically a Sony HVR-VIU HD). I was planning to either buy Digital Master or DVCAM for HDV miniDV tapes, both by Sony. Digital Masters are only a little bit more expensive than the HDVCAM tapes, and I know that they are technically superior. But are they worth it?

Here are the two brochures:

http://pro.sony.com/bbsccms/assets/files/mkt/recmedia/brochures/prodbroch_digitalmaster.pdf
http://pro.sony.com/bbsccms/assets/files/mkt/recmedia/brochures/dvcam4hdv_broch.pdf

Thank you for the help!

[edDV]

I was asked to record an interview next week on a MiniDV Camcorder (specifically a Sony HVR-VIU HD). I was planning to either buy Digital Master or DVCAM for HDV miniDV tapes, both by Sony. Digital Masters are only a little bit more expensive than the HDVCAM tapes, and I know that they are technically superior. But are they worth it?

Here are the two brochures:

http://pro.sony.com/bbsccms/assets/files/mkt/recmedia/brochures/prodbroch_digitalmaster.pdf
http://pro.sony.com/bbsccms/assets/files/mkt/recmedia/brochures/dvcam4hdv_broch.pdf

Thank you for the help!

The main issue is who is paying for these tapes? You or the client/employer?

If budget isn't an issue and the client agrees to pay, use the Digital Master.

If they don't care and this is out of your pocket, use this.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&N=0&Q=&Ntt=HDV+tape+sony&A=endecaSearch

Truth be told, you could go lower to PQ Panasonic with no compromise in video quality but it may expose you to blame if something goes wrong.
http://www.tapestockonline.com/pamidv.html

Bottom line, tape stock choice should be part of the contract. The client chooses and pays for the tape stock.

Price range is $3 to $16+ for 63 minutes. I'd spend the extra money on better lighting.

[Winsordawson]

I was asked to record an interview next week on a MiniDV Camcorder (specifically a Sony HVR-VIU HD). I was planning to either buy Digital Master or DVCAM for HDV miniDV tapes, both by Sony. Digital Masters are only a little bit more expensive than the HDVCAM tapes, and I know that they are technically superior. But are they worth it?

Here are the two brochures:

http://pro.sony.com/bbsccms/assets/files/mkt/recmedia/brochures/prodbroch_digitalmaster.pdf
http://pro.sony.com/bbsccms/assets/files/mkt/recmedia/brochures/dvcam4hdv_broch.pdf

Thank you for the help!

The main issue is who is paying for these tapes? You or the client/employer?

If budget isn't an issue and the client agrees to pay, use the Digital Master.

If they don't care and this is out of your pocket, use this.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&N=0&Q=&Ntt=HDV+tape+sony&A=endecaSearch

Truth be told, you could go lower to PQ Panasonic with no compromise in video quality but it may expose you to blame if something goes wrong.
http://www.tapestockonline.com/pamidv.html

Bottom line, tape stock choice should be part of the contract. The client chooses and pays for the tape stock.

Price range is $3 to $16+ for 63 minutes. I'd spend the extra money on better lighting.

Thank you for the quick reply.

Price is not an issue and they want the best quality possible. But are the extra bucks for a Digital Master really worth it when compared to the HDVCAM? Digital Master tapes can be used for HDV, DVCAM, and DV formats. If i can record in HDV mode, would recording a Digital Master in DVCAM mode be redundant in terms of preventing dropouts?

[edDV]

I was asked to record an interview next week on a MiniDV Camcorder (specifically a Sony HVR-VIU HD). I was planning to either buy Digital Master or DVCAM for HDV miniDV tapes, both by Sony. Digital Masters are only a little bit more expensive than the HDVCAM tapes, and I know that they are technically superior. But are they worth it?

Here are the two brochures:

http://pro.sony.com/bbsccms/assets/files/mkt/recmedia/brochures/prodbroch_digitalmaster.pdf
http://pro.sony.com/bbsccms/assets/files/mkt/recmedia/brochures/dvcam4hdv_broch.pdf

Thank you for the help!

The main issue is who is paying for these tapes? You or the client/employer?

If budget isn't an issue and the client agrees to pay, use the Digital Master.

If they don't care and this is out of your pocket, use this.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&N=0&Q=&Ntt=HDV+tape+sony&A=endecaSearch

Truth be told, you could go lower to PQ Panasonic with no compromise in video quality but it may expose you to blame if something goes wrong.
http://www.tapestockonline.com/pamidv.html

Bottom line, tape stock choice should be part of the contract. The client chooses and pays for the tape stock.

Price range is $3 to $16+ for 63 minutes. I'd spend the extra money on better lighting.

Thank you for the quick reply.

Price is not an issue and they want the best quality possible. But are the extra bucks for a Digital Master really worth it when compared to the HDVCAM? Digital Master tapes can be used for HDV, DVCAM, and DV formats. If i can record in HDV mode, would recording a Digital Master in DVCAM mode be redundant in terms of preventing dropouts?

HDV is high definition

DVCAM is standard definition and is electronically the same as DV25 format. The only difference for DVCAM is the signal is recorded with wider tracks and less recording time vs. DV.

I'll assume you are going to record high defininition HDV so ignore DVCAM.

Either of those tapes will work fine for HDV recording. The Digital Master is their top of the line,

[Winsordawson]

I understand. Thank you again for your help.

[Winsordawson]

It seems I am going to need to record many interviews as oppose to only one. Would you advise that one records on HDVCAM, saves the master on a Digital Master, and degausses the HDVCAM for a few more recordings? Or record directly on Digital Master, degauss it, save the edited footage on it, and never use it again?

Thanks again.

[edDV]

It seems I am going to need to record many interviews as oppose to only one. Would you advise that one records on HDVCAM, saves the master on a Digital Master, and degausses the HDVCAM for a few more recordings? Or record directly on Digital Master, degauss it, save the edited footage on it, and never use it again?

Thanks again.

You are making too much of this. Record directly to your best tape. Either of your tape stock is good enough.

No need to degauss anything. Your camera original tapes are the most important. You can always re-edit from those. You would save your edited program to a separate tape and keep them all. If you can't afford to do that, buy cheaper grade tapes. It is dangerous to erase anything.

There is no such thing as HDVCAM. There is a tape that can be used for either HDV (high def) or DVCAM (standard def). It can also be used for DV (standard def).

You might be thinking the choice of tape has anything to do with video quality. It doesn't for digital. The expensive tapes only offer a slightly lower chance of data loss over time.

[Winsordawson]

Sorry, when I wrote HDVCAM tape I meant a DVCAM for HDV tape.

Let's just say that these interviewees are not worth a whole tape of raw footage! I do not think I would want to go through the hassle of re-editing a tape again. Is there a significant decrease in quality if I edit the file as a .dv and safe it again as one? I would also be keeping it on a large external hard drive.

I have always been told that degaussing will make a dv tape like new (minus the inevitable wear). I would only be degaussing once. Are you saying that a pristine cheaper grade tape is going to last longer than a once-degaussed Digital Master?

[edDV]

Sorry, when I wrote HDVCAM tape I meant a DVCAM for HDV tape.
Let's just say that these interviewees are not worth a whole tape of raw footage! I do not think I would want to go through the hassle of re-editing a tape again.

Oh sheesh! You are on a Mac.

sheesh/SHēSH/
Exclamation: Used to express disbelief or exasperation. More Dictionary.com

First lets pretend you are on a Windows PC using Adobe Premiere, AVID or Sony Vegas...etc.
These products natively edit HDV. You can import a tape, cut edit a timeline and export without generation loss.

The HDV data on export is identical to the camera tape data unless you add filters, transitions or translations. You could rough cut hundreds of times without loss. For example, you could cut 4 hours of interviews into 30 minutes of usable clips with no loss. If you want to save back to tape, you could do so without loss.

Note: Pros would never erase or destroy the original tapes without approval by the client. You were paid to record those interviews and the client owns those tapes.

Now for Mac. This differs slightly for iMovie vs. Final Cut (Express or Pro).
First the Mac can't edit HDV natively unless you use Adobe software.

Final Cut or iMovie will insist on conversion of 25 Mb/s HDV to Apple Intermediate Codec at 60 GB/hr. (large files) on import. iMovie will give the option to downscale to 960x540p (quarter resolution). Don't do this.

You can then create clips in sequence bins and do all the other FCP stuff. Backup or intermediate file storage will be in AIC format (very large files). You could export back to HDV tape but this would be a generation loss. You selected the Mac so I'll assume you know what you are doing.

I'd still save (not erase) the original tapes for the same reasons plus if the Mac dies (they do), you need to be able to start over.

Is there a significant decrease in quality if I edit the file as a .dv and safe it again as one? I would also be keeping it on a large external hard drive.

Yes! You would be shooting HD, editing HD, then exporting in standard def DV?

Or, are you saying you want to shoot in HD but only edit in standard definition? Then why are you shooting HD? Why buy that fancy camcorder? I'm just trying to understand your work flow.

I have always been told that degaussing will make a dv tape like new (minus the inevitable wear). I would only be degaussing once. Are you saying that a pristine cheaper grade tape is going to last longer than a once-degaussed Digital Master?

No. I'd just not erase the camera tapes until the project is signed off and the money is in the bank.

The term "degauss" implies to me huge magnets used to erase audio reel to reel tapes. Never do that to HDV tape. Maybe you mean erase on the camcorder.

[Winsordawson]

Thank you for the new word of the day!

Final Cut or iMovie will insist on conversion of 25 Mb/s HDV to Apple Intermediate Codec at 60 GB/hr. (large files) on import. iMovie will give the option to downscale to 960x540p (quarter resolution). Don't do this.

You can then create clips in sequence bins and do all the other FCP stuff. Backup or intermediate file storage will be in AIC format (very large files). You could export back to HDV tape but this would be a generation loss. You selected the Mac so I'll assume you know what you are doing.

I'd still save (not erase) the original tapes for the same reasons plus if the Mac dies (they do), you need to be able to start over.

Is there a significant decrease in quality if I edit the file as a .dv and safe it again as one? I would also be keeping it on a large external hard drive.

Yes! You would be shooting HD, editing HD, then exporting in standard def DV?

Or, are you saying you want to shoot in HD but only edit in standard definition? Then why are you shooting HD? Why buy that fancy camcorder? I'm just trying to understand your work flow.

My Mac has yet to died on me, but I understand your point. That is why I would never erase a tape until I am finished with the entire project.

How significant is the generation loss when exporting back to HDV tape from FCP? What if I kept the AIC file but did not save it back onto a HDV tape (they also want it online)?

Or should I be using Adobe Premiere?

Note: Pros would never erase or destroy the original tapes without approval by the client. You were paid to record those interviews and the client owns those tapes.

I have always been told that degaussing will make a dv tape like new (minus the inevitable wear). I would only be degaussing once. Are you saying that a pristine cheaper grade tape is going to last longer than a once-degaussed Digital Master?

No. I'd just not erase the camera tapes until the project is signed off and the money is in the bank.

The term "degauss" implies to me huge magnets used to erase audio reel to reel tapes. Never do that to HDV tape. Maybe you mean erase on the camcorder.

I would never erase someone else's tapes!!!!!!! All they want is the edited tape, and none of the raw footage. I was planning to degauss the tapes in just the way you thought. I have done it numerous times with various types of analog tapes. Why is it not recommended to degauss HDV tapes?

[edDV]

As said above, Apple editors (iMovie, FCE/FCP) don't natively edit HDV/AVCHD/XDCAM etc. They convert everything to a digital intermediate or uncompressed (FCP only). iMovie and FCE have very limted export options. Jobs refuses to support Blu-Ray. As a budget consumer you are forced into 3rd party software do much with HD other than export to Apple's version of h.264.

Final Cut Pro (Studio $999) comes with Compressor that that will output many forms of MPeg2 or BluRay compatible h.264. They don't directly support going back to HDV tape.

[Winsordawson]

If I convert it to MPEG2 or h.264 with FCP, will there be significant quality loss when compared to HD? What about with AIC?

And why is it not recommended to degauss HDV tapes? I have done it many times before.

I appreciate your help.

[edDV]

If I convert it to MPEG2 or h.264 with FCP, will there be significant quality loss when compared to HD? What about with AIC?

And why is it not recommended to degauss HDV tapes? I have done it many times before.

I appreciate your help.

HDV is MPeg2 @ 25Mb/s CBR, 1440x1080i/29.97 top field first.

If you set your FCP project to 1440x1080i/29.97 you can export Blu-Ray 1440x1080i/29.97 MPeg2 from Compressor at 25Mb/s or greater with small loss. If you set your FCP project to 1920x1080i/29.97 you should export 1920x1080i/29.97 Blu-Ray MPeg2 from Compressor at 35Mb/s for the Edit Archive. I'd avoid h.264 for the archive but you can use it for distribution. Equivalent quality for interlace h.264 would be around 24Mb/s. Avoid deinterlace unless required for distribution. Deinterlace is highly destructive unless done with care.


TV news operations user degaussers but I'd avoid them for production unless they are certified for broadcast digital media. Otherwise the camcorder will erase the tape on next use. I rarely need to erase tapes because I save them for backup or return them to the client.

Fresh tapes are cheap. Broadcast quality degaussers are expensive.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?ci=1987&N=4294545211+4291170412+4291094226+4293918146

[Winsordawson]

I have read here that such DV tapes, given their digital signals, have a high chance of partial erasure due to their Full On/Full Off signal. Would this be a problem even if one striped a tape afterwards?

You mentioned that the camcorder would erase the tape on the next use. Why would this occur? I am just trying to understand the technical reasons.

[edDV]

I have read here that such DV tapes, given their digital signals, have a high chance of partial erasure due to their Full On/Full Off signal. Would this be a problem even if one striped a tape afterwards?

You mentioned that the camcorder would erase the tape on the next use. Why would this occur? I am just trying to understand the technical reasons.

I've never had a problem re-using tapes just using the camcorder's erase head. The reason TV stations use degausers is to protect copyrite or other proprietary legal issues with material left on re-used tapes.

DV tape like other digital media use FM Modulation to record digital data, not amplitude modulation you may be thinking. So erasure knocks down the RF envelope amplitude to the point it is in the noise. Also DV tape uses alternating head azimuth for adjacent tracks to prevent track to track crosstalk. DV audio is pulse code modulation, not linear AM. I've never heard of crosstalk from erased material being a problem for digital media.

[Winsordawson]

Thank you for the explanation, and I assume that slant azimuth recording is the same as the alternating azimuth recording you are referring too. But how does this explain why the camcorder would erase a HDV tape on the next use? Isn't that what I want?

I was thinking of striping the tape, but this would also have the effect of wearing out the tape heads. Isn't it just safer and easier to degauss it, especially since I already have one (albeit from the VHS days)?

[edDV]

Thank you for the explanation, and I assume that slant azimuth recording is the same as the alternating azimuth recording you are referring too. But how does this explain why the camcorder would erase a HDV tape on the next use? Isn't that what I want?

I was thinking of striping the tape, but this would also have the effect of wearing out the tape heads. Isn't it just safer and easier to degauss it, especially since I already have one (albeit from the VHS days)?

Every DV/HDV camcorder has a flying erase head on the drum that erases any old material before for insert editing in new material.

I still stripe black to my tapes used for serious production. The main reason is to maintain contiinuous time code. Many say this is unnecessary but I often rewind and review tapes during shooting. When cueing to end, sometimes a gap opens changing the time code. This doesn't happen with pre-blacked tapes.

I'm not sure a cheap degauser wouldn't damage the tape. I've never seen a study.

[shotinthedark]

If youre reusing a tape why complicate matters, start afresh. Degaussing scrambles the magnetic tape so you starting all over again. There's no bleed-throughs with other timecodes, which I encounter ALOT editing for others.
If you ALREADY have a degausser fresh tapes are more expensive.
Blacking / striping the tapes wears down the heads; isnt it better to avoid that?

[edDV]

If youre reusing a tape why complicate matters, start afresh. Degaussing scrambles the magnetic tape so you starting all over again. There's no bleed-throughs with other timecodes, which I encounter ALOT editing for others.
If you ALREADY have a degausser fresh tapes are more expensive.
Blacking / striping the tapes wears down the heads; isnt it better to avoid that?

You could be doing damage with a VHS degauser. DV/HDV tapes use different magnetic technology. Metal evaporative (ME) or metal particle (MP). I'd at least use one that is certified for use on the proper tape technology.

Head wear doesn't seem to be a problem. I've yet to wear out D8/MiniDV/HDV heads. I've never seen "bleed through" from previous recordings. After a quick Google search, the only problems reported are for the first few seconds while the flying erase head syncs in. Common practice is to avoid recording anything important in the first 30sec of tape. I start mine at 1 minute with black pre-roll.

For important recordings, I always use fresh tapes. Those I record black. If I'm reusing an old tape, I just record over it.


PS: That would be for my own previously recorded tape, not someone elses.

[Winsordawson]

I would agree that my VHS degausser is made for metal oxide tape, but how would it damage ME, MP, or AME tapes (for I believe DVCAM and maybe DigitalMaster)? I first thought of using it after seeing the video below, which seemed to condone the practice. The difference is that my degausser is an electromagnet, and is a bit larger than the VHS magnet seen here.

[edDV]

You can call Sony's tape support line and ask them. I see no need to do it.

[shotinthedark]

If deguassers only worked for different tapes theyre would be a variety of them. But all they do is disrupt magnetic patterns. If degaussers affect the tape itself I would be wary but they only affect the magnetism. You want to refresh any magnetic tape I see nothing wrong with using them. If original footage is not needed for clients they would help greatly in the editing process, there would be no old footage to confuse editors.

[Winsordawson]

So, in other words, I cannot damage a tape with a degausser?!? Which one is it?

Is there any fundamental difference in how a Metal Oxide VHS degausser and a ME/MP DV degausser is constructed? As edDV said, one can damage a dv tape with a VHS degausser, so it seems that a DV degausser must be built in a manner compatible with DV/HDV technology.

[videopoo]

OMG!! Why is this conversation happening? Why in God's name would you degauss a camera master? How much is a tape? 10 bucks? Just keep them for safe keeping or give them to the client who paid for them. I always charge more if the client wants the master tapes in the end.

[shotinthedark]

OMG!! Why is this conversation happening? Why in God's name would you degauss a camera master? How much is a tape? 10 bucks? Just keep them for safe keeping or give them to the client who paid for them. I always charge more if the client wants the master tapes in the end.

It seems technology here is colliding with the needs of a certain type of videographer. If you dont have clients involved in a partucular project I dont see how degaussing hurts. It eliminates old footage youre not concerned yourself with.

[Winsordawson]

Where am I?

Of course I would not degauss or otherwise erase a master tape, but in this case I have many masters that my clients do not want. They only want the edited version(s). But I am getting mixed signals (yes) about how a degausser can be used. Can it be used safety on .dv tapes? Does it matter what type of tape/degausser it is? Or is it just ineffective, or time-wasting?

[edDV]

Where am I?

Of course I would not degauss or otherwise erase a master tape, but in this case I have many masters that my clients do not want. They only want the edited version(s). But I am getting mixed signals (yes) about how a degausser can be used. Can it be used safety on .dv tapes? Does it matter what type of tape/degausser it is? Or is it just ineffective, or time-wasting?

Sony Tape Tech Support can answer all your questions. If not try Panasonic, Maxell or Fuji.

Then, please let us know what they say.

[brainburst]

"Of course I would not degauss or otherwise erase a master tape, but in this case I have many masters that my clients do not want. They only want the edited version(s)."

Are you crazy? Erasing master tapes? If the client doesn't want them get it in writing in a form that spells out all the implications of the fact that you do not have the master tapes. That you will not maintain the original media in any form whatsoever. That the finished product is the only instance that will exist in this or any alternative universe. That there is no chance in hell of recovering even an additional single frame, or better quality version of the accepted deliverable. Maybe then you can do it. Best practice would be to give them the tapes, have them sign a receipt with all of the previous information included.

[shotinthedark]

"Of course I would not degauss or otherwise erase a master tape, but in this case I have many masters that my clients do not want. They only want the edited version(s)."

Are you crazy? Erasing master tapes? If the client doesn't want them get it in writing in a form that spells out all the implications of the fact that you do not have the master tapes. That you will not maintain the original media in any form whatsoever. That the finished product is the only instance that will exist in this or any alternative universe. That there is no chance in hell of recovering even an additional single frame, or better quality version of the accepted deliverable. Maybe then you can do it. Best practice would be to give them the tapes, have them sign a receipt with all of the previous information included.

You never found yourself drowning in raw footage tapes?

[Cornucopia]

Brother, that's how the industry works!

shotinthedark, there ARE a variety of degaussers. The main difference has to do with magnetic strength & frequency of oscillation. The higher the retentivity (ability of the tape to retain an already recorded signal), the stronger you are going to need the magnets to be.

The levels fall into these ranges (starting from lowest):
1. Audio cassettes & reels
2. VHS/Beta tapes & Pro/Multitrack audio reels
3. 8mm, Hi8, SVHS tapes & 1"C video reels
4. Betacam/SP, MII tapes
5. D1, D2 tapes
6. DV/DVCam/DVCPro tapes
7. HDV tapes
8. Digibeta & DVHS tapes, etc.
A stronger machine can work on weaker tapes but not vice-versa.

Buy enough of the good quality tapes (as approved by your client). Black them. Record. Ingest. Store the master tapes until the edit is done. Then, along with giving the client the final edit master, give them their raw masters. OR give them the option of you continuing to store them for use at a later date (for a FEE!). If and ONLY if they are adamant that they don't want to keep those masters and also don't want you to have them as-is, offer to buy them back (remember they already paid for them) at 25% of the price.
Then, degauss those tapes (with an appropriate degausser of the level I mentioned above) and RE-black them.
Then, for subsequent customers, you can offer the choice of new or pre-used tapes (as long as the client fully understands and signs off). Charge 50% of normal cost. Make an additional profit.
BUT, put a little mark on the tape for counting how many times used (Blacked, Recorded, Ingested, Played) and retire the tapes once they hit your self-imposed limit.

Scott