good free DV (firewire) capture app with on the fly conversion

[a1s2d3f4]

I have a DV camcorder with Firewire connection to my laptop, sitting on a tripod (thus the scene backdrop doesn't change). I use it to capture "work process", where the only thing that moves in the frame is the person(s) doing the whatever action (for instance, imagine a piano recital, or similar).

My laptop is running Windows XP, SP3, but I am about to transition to Win7 64 bit, so the app I am looking for should ideally work for both.

Is there anything I could try that could on-the-fly convert my incoming standard DV stream to something where I get maximum quality for least amount of GB? Also, since I use virtualdub to make some quick eddits, it would be nice if it could be something that saves the output as an AVI file.

In the past I have used WMV output from moviemaker. Is there something better?
(If an app is <$30, I am willing to consider it as well, but free would be better).

As an added bonus, it would be great if I could interleave my DV video stream with an input audio stream from my external sound card (using mics and preamps for better audio).

Also, if I ever borrow an HDV camcorder, I would want to find a similar app for that, but I can post a different thread for that (couldn't find one).

Thanks,
a1

[jagabo]

Is there anything I could try that could on-the-fly convert my incoming standard DV stream to something where I get maximum quality for least amount of GB?

The problems here is that the codecs that give high compression are too slow for realtime conversion (unless you use them at "fast" settings which reduces the quality or increases the file size). There are several commercial consumer apps that can convert (DV while capturing) to MPEG 2 in realtime with OK results as long as you stick with high bitrates -- ~8000 kbps (roughly 1/3 the size of DV AVI).

[a1s2d3f4]

Well, it might be that I will have to stick with MM2.1 WMV. I have Core 2 Duo on my Windows XP, and quad core i5 on Win7. It definitely doesn't max out when Ido WMV high quality variable bit-rate. (say 640x480 29.97 fps).

So, what do people on this forum typically do for on the fly DV capture->re-compressed? It would be great to just gather some user data in one place (application($), OS, CPU, RAM, compressor settings).

e.g.
Windows MovieMaker 2.1 (free)
XP SP3
Core 2 Duo, P8400 @ 2.26GHz
3GB RAM
WMV - high quality video (large) [MS PRESET]

[a1s2d3f4]

Another possibility is an app where the incoming DV is not compressed in real-time, but close to.
In other words, the file would be cached uncompressed to some temporary file, and the CPU will work as fast as it can, chisling away at it, until it converts all of itto whatever format.
If I was to capture raw DV first (say 4 hours worth, and then compress it using VirtualDub, it would take forever before it's done, whereas if the cpautre app was able to compress it in parallel with capturing, I wouldn't need to wait as long for the final file before I could actually work with it.

Movie Maker does that when you ask it to compress to WMV, but use a slow CPU.

[zoobie]

seems to me there was a Ulead program that capped thru firewire then converted to mpeg2 on the fly...probably find it for free since it came with MediaStudioPro in which development has been dropped

[jagabo]

Yes, Ulead DVD Moviefactory has the feature. I believe Ulead Video Studio has it too. They're now owned by Corel. Pinnacle Studio (now owned by Avid) has it too (but I wouldn't recommend pinnacle to my worst enemies).

[aedipuss]

might be easier to get a usb capping device and capture the video out rather than the DVavi -> other.

[mediachimp]

Take a look at "Enosoft". The non-commercial version is a freebie.
www.enosoft.net
Cheers,
Fred

[a1s2d3f4]

Enosoft seems to provide possibilities. So far I have been able to use it to pipe separate audio and video streams into Windows Media Encoder and output a high quality WMV. I will have to do longer tests to see if the free version has a time limit on it.

[mediachimp]

I've been using Enosoft for awhile and as far as I know it does not have a time limit.

[jagabo]

Enosoft seems to provide possibilities. So far I have been able to use it to pipe separate audio and video streams into Windows Media Encoder and output a high quality WMV. I will have to do longer tests to see if the free version has a time limit on it.

Note that your DV video is probably interlaced and WMV is probably deinterlacing it, reducing the quality. What kind of bitrates are you getting?

[a1s2d3f4]

That's a good question. I do know that my DV Camcorder allows me to choose progressive or interlaced output. I think I have it set to interlaced - because I like my videos to have the "time resolution".

So, I need to read up on what the encoder does for interlaced/deinterlaced stream.
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/forpros/codecs/video.aspx

[jagabo]

Post a short WMV sample made from the interlaced DV. Try something with very thin (a few pixels thick) horizontal lines and a little motion.

[a1s2d3f4]

I'll try. Is there a size limit on attachments on this forum? But I do like what I read under "Advanced Profile" section in the link I posted.
I quote:

The Windows Media Video 9 Advanced profile fully conforms to the SMPTE VC-1 standard, supports interlaced content, and is transport-independent. Content creators can use this profile to deliver either progressive or interlaced content at data rates as low as one-third that of the MPEG-2 codec—with the same quality as MPEG-2.

In the past, interlaced video content was always de-interlaced before encoding with the Windows Media Video codec. Now, encoding applications such as Windows Media 9 Series, and third-party encoding solutions can support compression of interlaced content without first converting it to progressive content. Maintaining interlacing in an encoded file is important if the content is ever rendered on an interlaced display, such as a television.

I suppose I just need to figure out where that setting is in Windows Media Encoder.

[jagabo]

I suspect the default is to deinterlace because many players won't handle interlaced content correctly.

The video file size limit here is 30 MB.

[a1s2d3f4]

Thanks.
Well, I can upload, but I think I figured it all out and so now there is at least one way of doing what I set out to do in my OP.

Here is a list of bullet points that some people might find useful (it does address the "interlaced video" issue that you brought up):



(ENOSOFT is OPTIONAL - see post below)

• Download Enosoft DV Processor from here...
• In its main window, choose your "Input Source", and under Output choose Enosoft Virtual DV Renderer.
• Press "Run" and minimize the Enosoft window.

• Open Windows Media Encoder (C:\Program Files\Windows Media Components\Encoder\wmenc.exe). You will need to download and install it if you don't already have it.
• Choose "Capture Audio or Video" in the "New Session" wizard that should come up
• In the next Wizard dialog choose Enosoft Virtual DV Renderer for your Video source, and your sound card's inputs for your Audio.
• Choose the path for the WMV file that will get created
• Content Distribution: File Archive (but at this point you're welcome to experiment, as it leads you down various avenues, all of which lead to a particular compression used for the eventual video file).
• Encoding Options. If you chose File Archive: You can try Video: High Quality video (VBR 95), Audio: CD Quality Audio CBR. Basically, VBR 100 (lossless) will give you the best video file, but your CPU will probably not have enough juice to handle the pressure, so watch your task manager, and if you see CPU hit 90-100% while working during the capture, you will have video that's not smooth (i.e., somehow wasn't captured correctly), so you will want to do something about that (see below).
• Display Information: whatever
• Settings Review: do not choose Begin capturing when I click Finish. Click Finish.
• Click on "Properties" (top bar of the window)
• Compression Tab->Edit
• Video Codec: choose Windows Media Encoder 9 Advanced Profile
• Check Allow Interlaced Processing if your DV stream is interlaced
• Ok, Apply, and close the properties window.
• Click "Start Encoding" and minimize the encoder window also.
• Watch that CPU consumption to make sure you are not going over 90%.
• If you are, stop and go back to Compression Tab-Edit->Quality Based Tab. Here you can fine tune the controls to where you will be able to bring it down to around 90% which will guarantee smooth video and audio (although, I have noticed that even if the video was not smooth, audio always was for me). On my Core 2 Duo 2.26GHz system, I could set the quality to 90% and key frame interval to 4 seconds. I don't know what key frame interval does (probably allows for smaller video size???), but making it larger reduces CPU load.

Video looks stunning, all things considered. Audio is nice too (not coming from the built in DV camcorder mic.)

If anyone experiments using these settings, it would be interesting to find out the values that people are having to use for their respective machines.

Can anyone get a stutter free VBR 100 Lossless video on their machine?

[a1s2d3f4]

Just realized: no need for Enosoft. It is not necessary for what I am trying to do, and it just takes up CPU. Just start with "Open Windows Media Encoder..." in bullet points above, and choose your DV Camcorder for video, rather than Enosoft Virtual DV Renderer. I am able to get good stuff with 90% quality key frame every 4 seconds.

Enosoft is probably useful, if you want to add things like logo to your video - but again, takes up CPU.

Also, I have noticed that when I pipe in audio from my soundcard, it ends up slightly out of sync with the video (in my case, ca120ms before the video - verified by looking at the waveform of my claps and comparing to video frames). This is solvable if you use VLC (Video Lan) for playback with its audio delay feature.

[mediachimp]

True, Enosoft does take up CPU but it also allows you to make video and audio adjustments on the fly.
Glad you found something that'll work for you though!
Fred

[a1s2d3f4]

Really surprised, though, that Windows Media Encoder is the only thing that I found available for this type of capture. In general, it seems that MP4 (WMV is a variant) is the way to go?

[titigrom]

I used WinAvi Video Capture. You can find this soft here http://video-capture.winavi.com
It can help you to create MPEG-2 DVD files on the fly from your Digital Camcorder.

[jagabo]

Really surprised, though, that Windows Media Encoder is the only thing that I found available for this type of capture.

Several other apps were mentioned earlier.

In general, it seems that MP4 (WMV is a variant) is the way to go?

Personally, I don't care for the MP4 container or WMV3. I'd rather use MKV and x264. But I don't know of any realtime capture+encode options for that.

[a1s2d3f4]

I guess, I meant MP4 Part 10 (also known as AVC), supposedly identical to H.264.
I don't know about MKV compression quality, not having used it much.

And yes, I think that I would consider the quality of MPEG-2 (for the same disk space) to be inferior to AVC (unless my comparisons were somehow flawed). I need to think about this more.

[jagabo]

I guess, I meant MP4 Part 10 (also known as AVC), supposedly identical to H.264.
I don't know about MKV compression quality, not having used it much.

MKV is a container as is MP4, AVI, MPG, VOB, etc. x264 is an open source MPEG 4 Part 10 encoder.

And yes, I think that I would consider the quality of MPEG-2 (for the same disk space) to be inferior to AVC (unless my comparisons were somehow flawed). I need to think about this more.

At the same file size MPEG 2 is lower quality than h.264. There's no doubt about that.

[a1s2d3f4]

Ok, thanks for the lesson: MKV is not a compression algorithm.

I think I am ok with WMV9, since VirtualDub with ffchandler's plugin allows me to work with that type of video.

[a1s2d3f4]

I'm still experimenting with wmenc, since one of the encoding settings results in my audio getting an annoying series of clicks at regular intervals (I think VBR 90 for video and CBR CD quality for Audio).

[jagabo]

I'm still experimenting with wmenc, since one of the encoding settings results in my audio getting an annoying series of clicks at regular intervals (I think VBR 90 for video and CBR CD quality for Audio).

Look to see if there are some audio/video sync options and disable them. They shouldn't be necessary for DV capture.

[zoobie]

I'm still experimenting with wmenc, since one of the encoding settings results in my audio getting an annoying series of clicks at regular intervals (I think VBR 90 for video and CBR CD quality for Audio).

make sure to turn off any anti-virus blockers (down in the taskbar by the clock) and the like when capping

[lordsmurf]

Having a DV camera is a waste if you're just going to butcher the content later on.
May as well just shoot with a Flip of something.

Or plug the DV camera into a DVD recorder.

[a1s2d3f4]

Look to see if there are some audio/video sync options and disable them. They shouldn't be necessary for DV capture.

I have gone through every setting I could find in WMEncoder GUI and could find no such options.

There is something called "Maximum packet size" on the advanced tab of Properties. Not sure if that's related.

So far, I have actually decided to stick with WMEncoder, since one very quickly runs out of hard disk with uncompressed DV.


Those annoying clicks seem to disappear after a couple of minutes. They are annoying while they last.

[edDV]

Yes, Ulead DVD Moviefactory has the feature. I believe Ulead Video Studio has it too. They're now owned by Corel. Pinnacle Studio (now owned by Avid) has it too (but I wouldn't recommend pinnacle to my worst enemies).

The ULead products had the Mainconcept real time MPeg2 encoder module. I could capture DV to 7000 Mb/s 480i MPeg2 real time with a 2.4 GHZ P4. Tighter compression was subject to buffering or lost frames. A Core2 Duo could do 3500 Mb/s with no problems.

Hardware MPeg2 capture cards are an alternate.