NTSC and PAL

[edDV]

actually, what is the exactly telecined?
And why they wanted to slow down to 23.976 instead of 24?

something i would like to know more of.

From your position in the post production/distribution business perspective (Singapore PAL region), you will be dealing with various formats.

Local PAL production at 576i/1080i 25 fps

Local 720p production at 50 fps.

24p film source

23.976p digital source (Hollywood style world distribution)

Legacy "NTSC" 480i/1080i or 480p/720p in need of conversion.

[pboong]

Wow, that's really details which I need to take time to absorb it.
I still some question in my mind which I do not know how to ask, if you all don't mind.

What is the 1001 come from tho?


For instance of audio, film of 24 is
25 / (24000/1001) ~= 1.04270833

What happen if I gotten the source of 29.97? Do i use the calculation as above mentioned?

In addition, how about if I need to change from PAL to NTSC?
What will the calculation be it?

Just hoping to get all these fact right lest there are some such conversion on my end.

[jagabo]

What is the 1001 come from tho?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorburst
http://www.repairfaq.org/samnew/tvfaq/tvwinsswf.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTSC
http://www.ntsc-tv.com/ntsc-main-01.htm

[edDV]

Wow, that's really details which I need to take time to absorb it.
I still some question in my mind which I do not know how to ask, if you all don't mind.

What is the 1001 come from tho?


For instance of audio, film of 24 is
25 / (24000/1001) ~= 1.04270833

What happen if I gotten the source of 29.97? Do i use the calculation as above mentioned?

In addition, how about if I need to change from PAL to NTSC?
What will the calculation be it?

Just hoping to get all these fact right lest there are some such conversion on my end.

No, not detailed, just the short course.

Do you really want to know how this all developed or do you just want clues for doing your job?

It gets complicated. Read Jabago's links first.

How much NTSC conversion work do you need to do? And from what to what?

[pboong]

Thank jabago for the link.

@edDV, it will be good for understanding as well.

Sometime, like last time, I met such situation from NTSC to PAL and PAL to NTSC.

I was thinking, if I import PAL footage on the video editing s/w (Premiere Pro) and set up the sequence to NTSC, export out as NTSC. Will it works?

[edDV]

Thank jabago for the link.

@edDV, it will be good for understanding as well.

Sometime, like last time, I met such situation from NTSC to PAL and PAL to NTSC.

I was thinking, if I import PAL footage on the video editing s/w (Premiere Pro) and set up the sequence to NTSC, export out as NTSC. Will it works?

Probably not in high enough quality.

Does your business depnd on PAL to NTSC transcoding?

[pboong]

Thank jabago for the link.

@edDV, it will be good for understanding as well.

Sometime, like last time, I met such situation from NTSC to PAL and PAL to NTSC.

I was thinking, if I import PAL footage on the video editing s/w (Premiere Pro) and set up the sequence to NTSC, export out as NTSC. Will it works?

Probably not in high enough quality.

Does your business depnd on PAL to NTSC transcoding?

Usually format is in PAL.
At times, we will get NTSC format to convert to PAL. Like for 23.976fps case, they did not provide the information to me initially.

And I remember there's time I need to convert NTSC to PAL. So as you can see, it varies a lot.

Beside format transcoding, we deal more on DVD, which is a DVD production company. Everything must be good to go before I pass to my author for the next stage.

[edDV]

Thank jabago for the link.

@edDV, it will be good for understanding as well.

Sometime, like last time, I met such situation from NTSC to PAL and PAL to NTSC.

I was thinking, if I import PAL footage on the video editing s/w (Premiere Pro) and set up the sequence to NTSC, export out as NTSC. Will it works?

Probably not in high enough quality.

Does your business depnd on PAL to NTSC transcoding?

Usually format is in PAL.
At times, we will get NTSC format to convert to PAL. Like for 23.976fps case, they did not provide the information to me initially.

And I remember there's time I need to convert NTSC to PAL. So as you can see, it varies a lot.

Beside format transcoding, we deal more on DVD, which is a DVD production company. Everything must be good to go before I pass to my author for the next stage.

I'm not an expert on this but

NTSC 23.976 to PAL 25 requires the 4% speedup.

NTSC 29.97 to 25 fps PAL is usually done with an expensive hardware transcoder as is PAL to NTSC.

[pboong]

Hi all,

What happen if my video source is in NTSC 29.97 and audio is cinematic followed: 23.967?
What's the calculation like for me convert the audio from 23.976 to 29.97?

[manono]

The video lengths aren't the same? If not, what are the lengths of the 2 videos? There could be several answers to your question. But none of the right answers include speeding up the audio by a factor of 29.97/23.976=1.25

[pboong]

Hi manono,

The video given is in NTSC format. I have the English audio as well, and it sync perfectly to the video.

According to the client source, the audio given by the production house is in 23.976 length. They had it cut into 5 different parts with some silent in front and end.
I must provide my client everything in NTSC, which include the audio too.

Is there any other information you would like to know?

For the 1.25 you mention, does it means by speeding up from 23.967 to 29.97?

[manono]

You should know this already but what I was trying to get at with my questions is whether or not they're from the same source and are the same length. If from the same source progressive video at 23.976fps is the same length as progressive video at 23.976fps with pulldown applied to output 29.97fps. Film material on NTSC DVD is usually encoded as progressive 23.976, but after pulldown outputs 29.97fps. So, one possible answer to your question is that nothing has to be done with the audio - you can use it as-is.

Audio isn't NTSC or PAL, 23.976, 29.97, or 25fps, it's just length. Only DVD video is NTSC or PAL. And NTSC can be either film-based and progressive 23.976fps wiith pulldown, or it can be video based and native interlaced 29.97fps.

But since you didn't answer my questions, who knows what, if anything, has to be done with the audio.

[pboong]

manono -

Right now, I only have 1 video which is in NTSC.

The audio is break into 5 parts whereby I need to join them up. I can't be sure of the length as well because I need the reference for syncing and checking, right now I can only join them up without having the video to check for syncing. (

But according to my side client, they claim that it is from the studio, which probably in 23.976 length for audio.

I try my best to link them up together and conform the time duration first.

[pboong]

The audio length source given to me is : 1:36:33;18 (Mandarin audio)
The audio length (orginial) is 1:36:39;14 (En audio) - sync with video.

The difference is about 6 seconds.

[manono]

And didn't you say there was some silence at the beginning of the 5 part one? Maybe about 6 seconds of silence? So maybe the 2 videos are exactly the same and nothing has to be done with the audio for the second part except to allow for the silence at the beginning.

It's also possible there's a 30/29.97fps difference (same as 24/23.976fps). Is either at 24 or 30fps? I don't think that's it because you said one's NTSC (29.97) and the other's 23.976fps. But you never know.

[pboong]

The silence in between had been cut off by joining them up as 1 whole audio for the video.
The audio (Mandarin) seem to be a little faster than the original one (EN)

I checked up on net and gotten some calculation for 23.976 to 29.97. It mentioned the speed is 80. When put in Protools to sync after using Goldwave to time warp it, I notice the audio is even slower than the Mandarin one.

Even with the 1.25 speed up, it does not work at all. I guess, I need to slower the audio than speeding up. (as that is what I saw on Protools now tho)

[dphirschler]

From what I read years ago, B/W TV used to be exactly 30fps in North America. It was the addition of color to the signal that forced it to 30/1001 or 29.97.


Darryl

[manono]

But none of the right answers include speeding up the audio by a factor of 29.97/23.976=1.25

The audio (Mandarin) seem to be a little faster than the original one (EN)

You're sure it's 23.976fps and not 24fps? Maybe you only have to slow it by a factor of 24/23.976=1.001:1. Have you tried just adding in the audio and adjusting for any delay? And it doesn't work? And it's off by a few seconds at the end?

[pboong]

manono - according to my client, they claim it is 23.976 because they extract out straight from studio.
Earlier on, I also try to convert the audio using 24. 29.97/24= 1.24875

However, it still dun work. it is still faster than the original source.
The waveform is way too obvious on Protools.

I dun really get your meaning on adding the audio and adjust for any delay tho.

[manono]

Earlier on, I also try to convert the audio using 24. 29.97/24= 1.24875

You seem to have a little trouble understanding what's going on. The difference in time between the 2 is about 6 seconds. It's not a ratio of 29.97 to 23.976. It's not a ratio of 29.97 to 24. It may be a ratio of 24 to 23.976 or 1.001001. Or it may just need to be added to the video with no change other than a delay.

I dun really get your meaning on adding the audio and adjust for any delay tho.

Aren't you adding the audio from one to the video of another? So, do it and then check it for a delay and other differences. You know what a delay is, don't you? It's when the audio and video don't start together and you add a positive or negative delay to the audio to get it to match up with the video. It puts the audio in synch with the video. Then you can check if the sound matches when the lips move or the gun is fired.

[pboong]

My job require to check the syncing of the entire movie, whereby the gunshot, door close, etc had to be very precise.

But at this case, the start of the audio within the first 20min, it had started to drift away from the video. Since the first part is already not in sync, that goes for the rest of the 4 parts.

also, I only have 1 video only. There's no 2nd video at all.



I quite understand the ratio you are referring about.
I know it is a confusing matter, but I do appreciate the help from you throughout.
In fact, I will be puzzled if it is 24 to 23.976 tho. Because I tried doing time warp and I totally can't get any result from it. *sigh*

[manono]

I think the only reason the audio might have been from a 23.976fps video is if it was lifted from another DVD or maybe a TV broadcast. Otherwise, I think it possible it's from a 24fps source. Did you ask them where the audio came from? If you got it synched properly at the beginning, and it begins to drift afterwards, and it's about 6 seconds off by the end, it could very possibly be from a 24fps source.

I totally can't get any result from it.

What does that mean? The software you're using can't do the job? Maybe use something else, something like Audacity. Or even BeSweet. I just tested and BeSweet easily does 24fps to 23.976fps.

[pboong]

I shall try the BeSweet tomorrow when I'm in office.
I have that program thou, but how do I actually use it?

Well, the funny thing is that, I do not know why both source given by client are different format.
Audio - from Studio which had been dubbed with the frame rate of 23.976.
Video - I have no idea, but it is in NTSC format already. Definitely not the same source from the studio.

I know by getting everything from the same source will be better, but then again, client remains the rights tho.

[manono]

I have that program thou, but how do I actually use it?

I just checked the box for 'Change Frame Rate From' and filled in 24000 to 23976. I created a WAV file. You'll reencode it for AC3 later on.

[pboong]

thanks! hope it solve all the problem. =)

[dphirschler]

My job require to check the syncing of the entire movie, whereby the gunshot, door close, etc had to be very precise.

But at this case, the start of the audio within the first 20min, it had started to drift away from the video. Since the first part is already not in sync, that goes for the rest of the 4 parts.

also, I only have 1 video only. There's no 2nd video at all.



I quite understand the ratio you are referring about.
I know it is a confusing matter, but I do appreciate the help from you throughout.
In fact, I will be puzzled if it is 24 to 23.976 tho. Because I tried doing time warp and I totally can't get any result from it. *sigh*

This just seems like a fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants operation for what seems to be a professional product. I mean no offense to you, but here is a client relying on you to do this job and you cannot handle it... forcing you to rely on strangers in a video forum to walk you through it. Is it possible for you to get the unmixed commentary? Then you could mix the soundtrack back in yourself and ensure perfect sync. Or perhaps the audio guy that mixed the commentary can just redo it at the proper sync/speed. Would it be proper for you to just reject this audio and ask for it in the proper format?


Darryl

[pboong]

Hi dphirschler,

No offense thou. Such situation is inevitable. By the way, the commentary problem had been solved.

Cheers.

[pboong]

I have that program thou, but how do I actually use it?

I just checked the box for 'Change Frame Rate From' and filled in 24000 to 23976. I created a WAV file. You'll reencode it for AC3 later on.

I had the input and output set.
Changed the frame rate.

Hit the Wave to Wave button.
A window show up, I select the wav and it stated valid file.
Press OK.
The window close but I cannot see where is it transcoding.

Eh.. Am I missing out something?

[manono]

Yeah, a black box is supposed to open up and say stuff while it's converting. You had valid Input and Output names and locations?

[pboong]

Ah... after figuring ... now i understand... ok i see black window box now. =)