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    I have a collection of raw DV Stream files (with the ".dv" extension) in computer storage, which I made via capturing with the Canopus ADVC110, a Digital8 camcorder, and a miniDV camcorder. But I do not intend to take the next step that most people take. I have no plans to use a DVD authoring program. I have no plans to put this digital video on those silly DVD's, which hold only 4.7 or 8.54 gigabytes.

    I want to be able to play the DV files on my HDTV. I'm willing to spend up a few hundred dollars for something . . .

    But whenever I look at the specifications for a media server (I mean, like the WD TV Live HD media player), I don't see DV among the video codecs.

    XBMC Media Center? Perhaps I could put XBMC on a Mac mini? But I don't see DV listed among XBMC's video codecs.

    Would a home theater PC running Windows Media Center be my best bet?

    Oh, I think sending composite analog into my 720p HDTV, and letting it convert and upscale to 720p, would be absolutely fine. (Just as sending composite analog from the miniDV camcorder playing a miniDV tape looks fine.) For some reason, I suspect that might even work better than trying to send an HDMI signal to the HDTV.

    Suggestions, please.
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  2. Always Watching guns1inger's Avatar
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    Most (all ?) players do not support DV for native playback. It is simply not compressed enough to be a practical format for storage other than archiving, and is not commonly used by most people. A whether or not they like to admit it, all these players are basically designed to play formats that are easily downloaded. So you have a couple of choices. You can build a home theatre PC, which will support the format, or you can create converted versions that make use of modern compression and are playable on most players, and use these for playback while keeping your originals for archiving and perhaps re-encoding down the track. That said, using AVC it it possible to 3 - 4 hours of SD material on a standard DVD using the AVCHD format, and have it playable on many bluray players.
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    I positively want to avoid re-encoding (i.e., compressing the DV to H.264).

    The home theatre PC may be the way for me to go.

    But I've also wondered whether I could copy the DV files to a camcorder that will play them. Please explain your last sentence. Are you saying the DV would have to be re-encoded, or not?
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  4. Always Watching guns1inger's Avatar
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    Yes, to create an AVCHD you would have to re-encode the footage. AVC would give you the best quality and would let you put 2- 3 or more hours on a disc, depending on the source and the encoding settings. You can put them back to tape, but you get less on a ta[e that you can put on a disc (60 - 80 minutes depending on the tape) and you have to let the TV do the upscaling to HD, which not get you the best results (especially because you will be limited to composite, or maybe s-video for input). You may also be able to run the footage back to the camera and pass-through to a TV without having to put them onto tape.

    I don't understand your aversion to making a copy encoded to something more playable. You still have your original footage, so you loose nothing, and gain a lot of convenience.
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    We will have 10TB external hard drives in five years. So I think people who have footage on tape formats like Digital8 and miniDV should be able to put it on a media server bit-for-bit.
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  6. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by NY2LA View Post
    We will have 10TB external hard drives in five years. So I think people who have footage on tape formats like Digital8 and miniDV should be able to put it on a media server bit-for-bit.
    That will require a computer as the playback device.
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    So if, for example, I put XBMC on a Mac mini, will it play DV files?

    I don't know much about XBMC. The description of it here on videohelp.com says, "XBMC is capable of playing back almost all known video, audio and picture formats from a computers harddrive." But Wikipedia doesn't list DV as one of the supported video formats.

    DV is an open standard. If XBMC cannot play DV, can I convince its developers to add the capability to it?

    Otherwise, I guess I could go with an Apple TV with iTunes and Quicktime. That would not be my first choice.
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  8. Member edDV's Avatar
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    VLC and MPCHC play DV

    VLC can be set to stream interlace or deinterlace to the HDTV.
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    Originally Posted by edDV View Post
    VLC and MPCHC play DV

    VLC can be set to stream interlace or deinterlace to the HDTV.

    Thanks. I may try either or both of those.
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    To whom it may concern:

    See Section 4
    Direct Recording of DV Format
    http://www.blu-raydisc.com/Assets/Downloadablefile/BD-RE_Part3_V2.1_WhitePaper_080406-15271.pdf
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  11. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Yes and where are the consumer Blu-Ray disc recorders?

    All of this has been implemented on broadcast XDCAM, XDCAM-HD camcorders/VCRs siince 2003.

    XDCAM direct records SD as DV25 or IMX (4:2:0 MPeg2) to Blu-Ray disc.

    XDCAM-HD records HD 4:2:0 MPeg2 at 18Mb/s (VBR), 25Mb/s (CBR) on up to 35 Mb/s direct to Blu-Ray disc.

    The 25Mb/s (CBR) format is the same as prosumer HDV which is recorded to MiniDV tape.

    XDCAM-EX is the flash memory version of the format and can record the above plus SD 4:2:2 DV50 or 4:2:2 MPeg2 at 50Mb/s.

    Many edit programs such as AVID, Premiere and Vegas edit XDCAM/HDV natively. FCP converts to uncompressed or a digital intermediate (AIC or ProRes422).

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XDCAM
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  12. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by NY2LA View Post
    I have a collection of raw DV Stream files (with the ".dv" extension) in computer storage, which I made via capturing with the Canopus ADVC110, a Digital8 camcorder, and a miniDV camcorder. But I do not intend to take the next step that most people take. I have no plans to use a DVD authoring program. I have no plans to put this digital video on those silly DVD's, which hold only 4.7 or 8.54 gigabytes.

    I want to be able to play the DV files on my HDTV. I'm willing to spend up a few hundred dollars for something . . .

    But whenever I look at the specifications for a media server (I mean, like the WD TV Live HD media player), I don't see DV among the video codecs.

    XBMC Media Center? Perhaps I could put XBMC on a Mac mini? But I don't see DV listed among XBMC's video codecs.

    Would a home theater PC running Windows Media Center be my best bet?

    Oh, I think sending composite analog into my 720p HDTV, and letting it convert and upscale to 720p, would be absolutely fine. (Just as sending composite analog from the miniDV camcorder playing a miniDV tape looks fine.) For some reason, I suspect that might even work better than trying to send an HDMI signal to the HDTV.

    Suggestions, please.
    Since XBMC uses ffmpeg for it's codecs, it's pretty reasonable to assume that it would support DV compression. But you'd be giving it RAW dv streams, without a standard MM container. Most playback devices are geared for using MM containers (MPEG, AVI, MOV, WMV, MKV, etc). XBMC is one of those. So it's likely that it couldn't work with the raw stream.

    It is fairly trivial to "wrap" the raw dv stream into an AVI or QT/MOV container, and then you'd probably be good to go. Note: this is not the same thing as re-compressing or encoding. It's the same payload data, but with "headers", etc.

    Scott
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    Originally Posted by Cornucopia View Post
    Since XBMC uses ffmpeg for it's codecs, it's pretty reasonable to assume that it would support DV compression. But you'd be giving it RAW dv streams, without a standard MM container. Most playback devices are geared for using MM containers (MPEG, AVI, MOV, WMV, MKV, etc). XBMC is one of those. So it's likely that it couldn't work with the raw stream.

    It is fairly trivial to "wrap" the raw dv stream into an AVI or QT/MOV container, and then you'd probably be good to go. Note: this is not the same thing as re-compressing or encoding. It's the same payload data, but with "headers", etc.

    Scott
    What about the MXF wrapper? (an open standard)
    http://www.digitalpreservation.gov/formats/fdd/fdd000013.shtml
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  14. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by NY2LA View Post
    Originally Posted by Cornucopia View Post
    Since XBMC uses ffmpeg for it's codecs, it's pretty reasonable to assume that it would support DV compression. But you'd be giving it RAW dv streams, without a standard MM container. Most playback devices are geared for using MM containers (MPEG, AVI, MOV, WMV, MKV, etc). XBMC is one of those. So it's likely that it couldn't work with the raw stream.

    It is fairly trivial to "wrap" the raw dv stream into an AVI or QT/MOV container, and then you'd probably be good to go. Note: this is not the same thing as re-compressing or encoding. It's the same payload data, but with "headers", etc.

    Scott
    What about the MXF wrapper? (an open standard)
    http://www.digitalpreservation.gov/formats/fdd/fdd000013.shtml
    MXF can be handled by some editors (e.g. Vegas Pro) but not many players. MXF is intended as a production asset exchange container and is still in some standards confusion.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Material_Exchange_Format
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    I have a similar issue. I have a number of DV video captures which I really don't want to spend additional time and effort converting to another format. Aren't programs like TVersity supposed to do on the fly transcoding so that it can be recognized by DLNA capable displays? My plasma can recognize MP4, MPG, and Divx/AVI.
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  16. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by tonyp2 View Post
    I have a similar issue. I have a number of DV video captures which I really don't want to spend additional time and effort converting to another format. Aren't programs like TVersity supposed to do on the fly transcoding so that it can be recognized by DLNA capable displays? My plasma can recognize MP4, MPG, and Divx/AVI.
    DV is a low compressed, high bit rate production format without hardware codec support in most TV sets or media players. To software transcode to MPeg2 in TVersity realtime, a large CPU would be required. I find no evidence TVersity is transcoding DV. See here http://forums.tversity.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=30436

    If you had a wired CAT6 network with Gigabit router/switch, you could access DV files to a local HTPC or access DV files from a local hard drive to an HTPC and play with VLC or MPCHC. I play DV, HDV and ts MPeg2 format files this way from my network via Core2Duo laptop to HDTV.
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    Originally Posted by edDV View Post
    If you had a wired CAT6 network with Gigabit router/switch, you could access DV files to a local HTPC or access DV files from a local hard drive to an HTPC and play with VLC or MPCHC. I play DV, HDV and ts MPeg2 format files this way from my network via Core2Duo laptop to HDTV.
    Actually, I do. My display is CAT6 connected to my PC this way. If I install VLC will my display be able to "see" it, or would I actually have to launch the video locally from the PC and VLC and have it somehow redirect itself to the display?
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  18. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by tonyp2 View Post
    Originally Posted by edDV View Post
    If you had a wired CAT6 network with Gigabit router/switch, you could access DV files to a local HTPC or access DV files from a local hard drive to an HTPC and play with VLC or MPCHC. I play DV, HDV and ts MPeg2 format files this way from my network via Core2Duo laptop to HDTV.
    Actually, I do. My display is CAT6 connected to my PC this way. If I install VLC will my display be able to "see" it, or would I actually have to launch the video locally from the PC and VLC and have it somehow redirect itself to the display?
    VLC/MPCHC would run on an HTPC which would feed the HDTV via display card HDMI, VGA or analog component.

    The TV doesn't run software apps (at least not yet). It only runs a firmware player with preloaded codecs. No cuurent HDTV comes with a DV codec.
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    Originally Posted by edDV View Post
    VLC/MPCHC would run on an HTPC which would feed the HDTV via display card HDMI, VGA or analog component.
    Hmm, i think I'd rather find a way to run them directly over Ethernet to the display via a video server package. I guess that means I have to convert the captures. Would H.264 provide the best conversion quality? I can choose from that, MPEG-1, MPEG-2 PS, MPEG-2 TS, and WMV9.
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    Originally Posted by tonyp2 View Post
    Originally Posted by edDV View Post
    VLC/MPCHC would run on an HTPC which would feed the HDTV via display card HDMI, VGA or analog component.
    Hmm, i think I'd rather find a way to run them directly over Ethernet to the display via a video server package. I guess that means I have to convert the captures. Would H.264 provide the best conversion quality? I can choose from that, MPEG-1, MPEG-2 PS, MPEG-2 TS, and WMV9.
    Realtime software DV to MPeg2 720x480i @ 4-6 Mb/s conversion would require the least CPU power and would be accepted by most media players or upper range DLNA HDTV sets.

    Realtime software h.264 encoding would require more CPU power at similar quality. Hardware acceleration could use either format.
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    I've got a Win7 x64 machine running at 4.05GHz with 6GB RAM. It runs 24/7 so I wouldn't care how long a transfer took. My display is a true HD plasma which can do 1080p. If I wanted to get the absolute best quality optimized for this kind of use is the above recommendation still valid? If so, would MPEG2 be preferred over h.264 for highest image quality and fewest artifacts?
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  22. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by tonyp2 View Post
    I've got a Win7 x64 machine running at 4.05GHz with 6GB RAM. It runs 24/7 so I wouldn't care how long a transfer took. My display is a true HD plasma which can do 1080p. If I wanted to get the absolute best quality optimized for this kind of use is the above recommendation still valid? If so, would MPEG2 be preferred over h.264 for highest image quality and fewest artifacts?
    So the Win7 Machine would be a media server converting DV to MPeg realtime? TVersity would need to control this but currently doesn't seem to.

    The model is you select a DV file on a DLNA TV menu, then the media server software performs a realtime conversion DV to a MPeg2 transport stream that is streamed over Ethernet and decoded in the TV hardware MPeg codec for display.

    The missing link is TVersity or other media server software supporting this model.

    Does your HDTV currently support DLNA, and MPeg2/h.264 hardware decode from Ethernet?
    http://www.dlna.org/digital_living/how_it_works/
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Living_Network_Alliance
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    Originally Posted by edDV View Post
    Does your HDTV currently support DLNA, and MPeg2/h.264 hardware decode from Ethernet?
    http://www.dlna.org/digital_living/how_it_works/
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Living_Network_Alliance
    Yes, it does (Pioneer 111FD). The thing is I've tried TVersity in the past and I can't seem to figure out how to configure it so that my display is able to select the DV AVI files from the TVersity server menu available from my display. I spent a bit of time on the TVersity home forums but could not resolve the problem. So maybe I should just do a file by file conversion and put each one in a form my display can access directly. I've been looking at Xvid4PSP and it seems to be a very capable format conversion tool, but I'm not sure what native format to convert my DV AVIs to get the very best quality out of them.
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    Originally Posted by tonyp2 View Post
    Originally Posted by edDV View Post
    Does your HDTV currently support DLNA, and MPeg2/h.264 hardware decode from Ethernet?
    http://www.dlna.org/digital_living/how_it_works/
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Living_Network_Alliance
    Yes, it does (Pioneer 111FD). The thing is I've tried TVersity in the past and I can't seem to figure out how to configure it so that my display is able to select the DV AVI files from the TVersity server menu available from my display. I spent a bit of time on the TVersity home forums but could not resolve the problem. So maybe I should just do a file by file conversion and put each one in a form my display can access directly. I've been looking at Xvid4PSP and it seems to be a very capable format conversion tool, but I'm not sure what native format to convert my DV AVIs to get the very best quality out of them.
    Issue is no TV has codecs for DV playback and server software like TVersity do not support real time DV to MPeg converstion.

    Any conversion will result in quality loss so don't erase your DV originals. I maintain at least one tape and hard disk copy of my DV camera files and edit masters. I also make an MPeg 8.2 Mb/s 720x480i/29.97 w/PCM audio for DVD or server access from my computers. My goal here is maximum quality not wireless delivery. Disk space isn't much a problem these days. I bought an external 2GB drive for $109 last week. I've also wired most of the house with CAT6 gigabit Ethernet so 9.7 Mb/s (8.2 video+1.5 audio) isn't a problem here. I can even access 25 Mb/s HDV for realtime playback from a desktop computer.

    If wireless network delivery is your main goal, you might opt for interlace h.264 at 4-6 Mb/s instead. I draw the line at software deinterlace of DV material. The quality loss is unexceptable to me especially when the display target is a large screen HDTV. The TV will deinterlace in real time with better quality. H.264 encoding with or without deinterlace requires extremely long encode times vs. faster than real time for 480i MPeg2 (Core2 quad).

    Eventually media servers, media players and/or HDTV sets will add DV playback codecs. That would make all this h.264 transcoding work redundant.
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    Connection to the display is wired CAT6. So what's the best way to convert with maxium quality? I tried Xvid4PSP version 5.036 but it crashed on me.
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    Originally Posted by tonyp2 View Post
    Connection to the display is wired CAT6. So what's the best way to convert with maxium quality? I tried Xvid4PSP version 5.036 but it crashed on me.
    If you really want top quality irrespective of file size look at MPeg2 720x480i between 25 and 50 Mb/s*. You could also experiment with all I frame MPeg2 and see if the TV codec will take it. All I frame MPeg2 is essentially the same thing as DV format but with 4:2:0 color map instead of 4:1:1 (for NTSC).

    Another possiblity is interlaced VC-1 Advanced L1 profile 10Mb/s which was designed to replace DigiBeta 90 Mb/s (3x DCT compressed). This is intended to be a studio asset recording format. Broadcasters rely on hardware codecs. The cost for PC software use is long encode times.

    You won't get equivalent quality with interlace h.264 unless you use much more bit rate >15 Mb/s.

    MPeg2 will be by far the fastest for encode times.


    * All I frame MPeg2 720x480i between 30 and 50 Mb/s is essentially the IMX video recording format.
    Last edited by edDV; 23rd Aug 2010 at 17:40.
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    Ah, but what bit of conversion software will let me try all this, and work without crashing?
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    The Mainconcept MPeg Encoder found in Premiere Pro or Vegas Pro has all the settings. Probably free MPeg HCenc too.

    What edit/DVD software do you already have?

    Since DV is a CBR format, probably best to use CBR for high bit rate MPeg2 as well.
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    AAMOF I use Vegas Pro 8.0, but when I select Render As I do not get an option for MPEG-2 PS or any MPEG-2 type. I get MP4 or WMV plus a few others.
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    Originally Posted by tonyp2 View Post
    AAMOF I use Vegas Pro 8.0, but when I select Render As I do not get an option for MPEG-2 PS or any MPEG-2 type. I get MP4 or WMV plus a few others.
    You need to reinstall. The Mpeg2 encoder should be there.
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