How Do I Play Raw DV Stream Files on a TV?

[jagabo]

I discovered that MPEG Streamclip (on my Mac) offers Save as . . . with an option to select AVI in a pull down menu. However, when using this feature to save raw DV files as AVI, the resulting AVI files play with video but lack audio.

Maybe if you change the video stream header from "vids" to "iavs" the audio will play.

[NY2LA]

Maybe if you change the video stream header from "vids" to "iavs" the audio will play.

I like this idea. But it will be my first time using a hex editor.

Any recommendations? I think I'd rather do it on the Windows netbook than on the Mac.

[jagabo]

If you have VirtualDub it has a built in Hex Editor. Tools -> Hex Editor. I use an old (free) hex editor from hhd software:
http://www.hhdsoftware.com/

[Cornucopia]

From a previous post of mine:

In the RIFF headers,
Type1 sees: "IAVS" as the stream type. This stands for "Interleaved Video-Audio Stream". That's it. One stream, already pre-muxed within the container's muxing.
Type2 sees: "VIDS" + "AUDS" as the stream types. These clearly stand for "Video elementary Stream" and "Audio elementary Stream". Two streams, muxed within the container.

With DV capture of Type 1, the RAW DV stream (already muxed) gets saved AS-IS without any further processing. This makes for easier/less burdensome capture, but MORE burdensome processing/editing down the road.
With DV capture of Type 2, a neat trick is done where the RAW DV stream gets saved AS-IS - with the exception of not calling the stream header "IAVS", but instead calling it "VIDS". It also demuxes and taps off a copy of the audio, saving it to the "AUDS" stream. More burdensome to capture, but less to process/edit. Because of the way most apps read the resulting "VIDS" (nee' "IAVS") stream, the internally-muxed audio portion just gets ignored. The only other downside is the additional filesize (because of the copy of the audio stream) in type 2.

This thread falls in line with what I was suggesting...

On Macs the *.DV is "Type1". The (DV)*.MOV might be a special "Type2" where via Quicktime, as Herge suggested, the Audio stream is padded to Video bitrates (very wasteful). I have, however, seen and worked with STANDARD QT (DV)*.MOV "Type2" files (filesize is larger than type1, but not so large as DOUBLE). I'm not anywhere near a Mac right now, so I couldn't replicate it.
On PCs, if you get *.DV, you KNOW they're type1 (you might also see these as *.DIF or *.DVSD).
(DV)*.AVI can be either Type1 or Type2. And, like jagabo is suggesting, if you change the RIFF header info to reflect a IAVS stream as opposed to an VIDS stream (and leave the AUDS stream alone), it should do the trick. You might be able to find a "RIFF Viewer/Editor" (I used to have a copy somewhere), but it is probably just as easy to do the hex edit. Just make sure you save an original copy of the file FIRST.

Scott

[NY2LA]

Very interesting. A while ago, I discovered that if I open a raw DV file with Quicktime Player 7, and try to make one, little change, such as adding an author's name in an annotation field, and try to save it . . . it automatically does "save as . . .", and the result is a file of twice the size.

I never try to edit or convert my raw DV files with Quicktime Player for that reason.

And this is why, in order to do the successful experiment explained above, "I had to use a Final Cut Express to create the Quicktime movie, not Quicktime Player, in order for this to work." When using Final Cut Express' export to Quicktime movie, the file size grew only a little bit (2.23 to 2.35 GB in my test.) Then, when I used MPEG Streamclip to save the MOV file as AVI (which successfully created the AVI file with audio that plays), it grew only a little bit more, to 2.36 GB.

I think I'll install VirtualDub on my Windows netbook, and try your suggestions to change the header. I'll report back later. Thanks.

[Cornucopia]

Ok, I finally got around to testing a variety of options, and this is what I found out:

QT is stupid!



Like I surmised, I now have evidence to back up the fact that,

1. Raw .DV have Muxed Video+Audio+UserMetadata, and that's it. They will play directly in QT - Windows or Mac - as long as it is a recent vintage (e.g. 7.6.4+ verified). They will also play in SOME (but not all) versions of WMP. It will play in VLC. MediaInfo show a V and a separate A track (not a "muxed in").
2. Raw .DV that has been capped to AVI on a PC can be "type1" or "type2"
3. Type 1 AVI is that same Raw .DV, wrapped in an AVI container, with "IAVS" as the stream type (even though it truly include V+A+). MediaInfo show V+A ("muxed in"). It plays in WMP (a few older versions it doesn't), QT, VLC, Vdub fine.
4. Type 2 AVI is THAT same Raw .DV, wrapped in an AVI container, PLUS an additional stream of the Audio (pre-extracted from the original combined stream), with the "IAVS" designation (but not the essence) having been replaced by a "VIDS" designation, and that separate Audio stream using an "AUDS" designation. Media Info shows V+A ("muxed in") and A (PCM). It plays in everything!
5. MANY apps can bork the designations and headers, so it's very possible for other, player apps to not read them well enough to play either the audio or the video correctly.
   1. ***One app that seems to do a GREAT JOB at fixing those headers, etc is Enosoft's AVIRepair utility (comes with DV processor).***
6. The filesize difference between Type1 and Type2 varies, but usually is 5 - 20% greater for Type2.
7. QT (regardless of whether it's Windows or Mac) will do a "SAVE AS" of a Raw .DV stream to a Raw .DV stream, and keep the filesize the same, but
8. If you do a "SAVE AS" or "EXPORT" from the .DV stream to a DV .MOV, it will ALWAYS save as an equivalent to the AVI's "Type2" format, but with the added BUG (in Windows or Mac) in QT's processing of the internally muxed V+A is done in a dumb way where the stream is duplicated and then one stream is given the "Video Track" designation and one is given the "Audio Track" designation. So it's just like Herge guessed - the Audio stream is "padded" to equal the huge video bitrate. This partly happens because even before export, QT assumes those padded bitrates in the track properties. I could be wrong, but I believe this bug didn't used to exist and has only in the past few years come to light. I used to do a LOT of PC<->Mac DV MOV/AVI conversion and never once noticed a major filesize difference. MediaInfo will show V+A (with a "vdva" codec/type) and an A (LPCM). It will play in QT, but not WMP, and VLC will play the video but not the audio (gives "vdva" error).
9. Surprisingly, if you do an "EXPORT" from the .DV stream to a DV .AVI (in QT), it will CORRECTLY save it as a standard "Type2" AVI format that isn't overly huge.
10. If you try to convert the Bugged Type2 DV .MOV back to Type2 DV .AVI, it will work, but it retains some problems, one of which is audio not always playing, another of which is that the Enosoft AVI repair won't work with it (Directshow error). Also, Vdub can read/parse the file, but can't play it.
11. MPEGstreamclip has an additional bug that QTPro doesn't have: While you can convert from Raw .DV to Type1 Dv .AVI, it changes the stream designation to "VIDS" (not "IAVS") without any accompanying "AUDS", so nearly ALL apps show NO audio. It also (in certain conversion circumstances) loses the 4:3 DAR.

Well, that's enough for now... Got to go to bed.

Scott

[NY2LA]

Wow. Thank you, Cornucopia.

[NY2LA]

Maybe if you change the video stream header from "vids" to "iavs" the audio will play.

I downloaded Virtualdub's latest beta version onto my Windows netbook. I used its Hex editor and made exactly the change shown in your screenshot above - to one of the aforementioned test AVI files.

Then, I tried playing the file with Windows Media Player. The audio plays now. But gosh, something really weird happens to the video upon playback -- as if blocks are not being decoded, or something like that.

I'd attach a screenshot, but I don't know how to create screenshots on Windows.