How Do I Play Raw DV Stream Files on a TV?

[edDV]

DV camcorders set a bit in the DV stream for 4:3 (default) or Wide (16:9). Dumb players play square pixel 720x480.

[NY2LA]

DV is interlace. The Yadif deinterlace works great without too much CPU load.

I have a long way to go. I appreciate you recommending the deinterlace setting. But why deinterlace in the first place? To accommodate HDMI out to an HDTV?

This comparison will be interesting: 1.) Playback of DV in NLE timeline, video out from NLE, digital-to-analog through Canopus ADVC or DV camcorder, composite analog into 720p HDTV; versus 2.) Playback of DV material in a program VLC and MPCHC, deinterlacing done on the computer, and sending progressive video (over HDMI?) into 720p HDTV. I've only tried the former, and it looks good. I don't know what to expect from the latter.

It will be pretty interesting to see what happens to my regular 8mm films, transferred via Rank Cintel to MiniDV tapes, captured as raw DV stream, if I try to deinterlace that material. The original films are 16 frames per second.

[edDV]

This comparison will be interesting: 1.) Playback of DV in NLE timeline, video out from NLE, digital-to-analog through Canopus ADVC or DV camcorder, composite analog into 720p HDTV; versus 2.) Playback of DV material in a program VLC and MPCHC, deinterlacing done on the computer, and sending progressive video (over HDMI?) into 720p HDTV. I've only tried the former, and it looks good. I don't know what to expect from the latter.

Well the wild card here is the processing quality in that particular "720p" HDTV. "720p" (1366x768 native) models are mostly the bottom of the line and come with generic processing chips. Or they are older models.

Case 1. DV out converted to interlace S-Video.

In this case the "720p" TV must decode NTSC, convert analog to digital, deinterlace, then upscale to 1366x768.

Case 2a. MPCHC uses DXVA for display card hardware DV deinterlace and upscale to computer screen resolution. Display card resizes for 1280x720p output to TV over HDMI, HDTV resizes 1280x720p to 1366x768 for display.

Case 2b. MPCHC uses DXVA for display card hardware DV deinterlace and upscale to 720p or 1080p for HDMI second monitor output. HDTV rescales 720p or 1080p to 1366x768 for display.

Case 2c. MPCHC uses DXVA for display card hardware 720x480i output over HDMI second monitor output. HDTV then deinterlaces and upscales 720x480 to 1366x768 for display. This assumes your display card is capable of direct 720x480i output without first deinterlacing.

For a medium to premium level HDTV (e.g. Samsumg level 5 or better), case 2c should get the best result with the HDTV doing all the work.

A conventional CRT TV or an interlace projector will get the best result from the ADVC S-Video.

It will be pretty interesting to see what happens to my regular 8mm films, transferred via Rank Cintel to MiniDV tapes, captured as raw DV stream, if I try to deinterlace that material. The original films are 16 frames per second.

To get 16 fps to interlace DV format will require them to slow the projector to 14.985 fps for double gate (2x frame repeat) to 29.97. The resulting interlace video will not be a conventional 2:3 telecine. This may confuse some HDTV processors.

For 8mm film, a better strategy is to request frame by frame progressive scans so you can optimize your own playback strategy. For instance, for 480p or 720p 59.94 fps output, you could use AVISynth to create a custom frame repeat pattern and keep the video progressive. Future HDTV sets may accept other than 29.97 or 59.94 fps input. With your film data in raw frames, you have more flexibility for the future.

It may be possible to request your scans at 960x720 size, ideal for 1280x720p display. If this were 16mm film, you would request 1440x1080 scans.

[NY2LA]

VLC and MPCHC play DV

VLC can be set to stream interlace or deinterlace to the HDTV.

I am taking one little step at a time, so I am referring back to this earlier statement again. At the moment, I don't have a Windows computer with HDMI out. So I am merely testing playback of sample raw DV files on my MSI Wind netbook with an Atom processor.

Tonight, I finally installed Media Player Classic Home Cinema, 32bit version. A message pops up asking me to download and install the latest DirectX runtime (June 2010), which I know nothing about.

MPCHC will not play my raw DV files. I guess you knew that. I'm going to be stubborn for a while, and procrastinate putting my raw DV files in an AVI wrapper, because personally I think raw DV should be supported.

[NY2LA]

In VLC, under "Video" you can force set aspect ratio. Mine is set to "default".

You should also set deinterlace to Yadif or Yadif(2x). You can also set this in Perferences for auto deinterlace.

I experimented with VLC some more. I like its Open Folder...feature, allowing automatic successive playback of all of the media files in a folder -- in this case, my three test raw DV files. During playback with VLC, I notice ever-so-slight combing that I don't see during playback of the same files with Quicktime for Windows.

I tried all of VLC's deinterlace settings. Only Blend and X works, though I don't see any difference between them and deinterlacing off on the computer monitor. Yadif, Yadif 2x, Bob, Mean, Linear, and Discard result in no video playing, only the audio. Is this because I am using a computer with only an Atom processor, or am I missing something else?

P.S. Two of the DV files are Canopus ADVC captures of analog videotapes. The other DV file is a sample captured miniDV tape consisting of the aforementioned telecine transfers of regular 8mm film. The telecine transfer did not behave differently from the other two DV files. (edDV, the transfers were done last year, so it is too late to follow your suggestion, unless I have some redone.)

[NY2LA]

Re: MPCHC uses DXVA

I never heard of DXVA, so I searched it. This lead me to also read about DirectShow, and its replacement, Media Foundation.

If I understand this correctly, Media Foundation decodes raw DV:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd940322(VS.85).aspx

[edDV]

VLC and MPCHC play DV

VLC can be set to stream interlace or deinterlace to the HDTV.

I am taking one little step at a time, so I am referring back to this earlier statement again. At the moment, I don't have a Windows computer with HDMI out. So I am merely testing playback of sample raw DV files on my MSI Wind netbook with an Atom processor.

Tonight, I finally installed Media Player Classic Home Cinema, 32bit version. A message pops up asking me to download and install the latest DirectX runtime (June 2010), which I know nothing about.

MPCHC will not play my raw DV files. I guess you knew that. I'm going to be stubborn for a while, and procrastinate putting my raw DV files in an AVI wrapper, because personally I think raw DV should be supported.

Directshow is the media layer for Windows video playback and capture. Idea is Directshow uses available hardware assist from the display card, and does the rest in software. For DV playback, your Atom processor must take the full load. DirectX runtime is a download from the MS site.
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/en/details.aspx?FamilyID=2da43d38-db71-4c1b-bc6a-9b...emRequirements

[edDV]

In VLC, under "Video" you can force set aspect ratio. Mine is set to "default".

You should also set deinterlace to Yadif or Yadif(2x). You can also set this in Perferences for auto deinterlace.

I experimented with VLC some more. I like its Open Folder...feature, allowing automatic successive playback of all of the media files in a folder -- in this case, my three test raw DV files. During playback with VLC, I notice ever-so-slight combing that I don't see during playback of the same files with Quicktime for Windows.

I tried all of VLC's deinterlace settings. Only Blend and X works, though I don't see any difference between them and deinterlacing off on the computer monitor. Yadif, Yadif 2x, Bob, Mean, Linear, and Discard result in no video playing, only the audio. Is this because I am using a computer with only an Atom processor, or am I missing something else?

P.S. Two of the DV files are Canopus ADVC captures of analog videotapes. The other DV file is a sample captured miniDV tape consisting of the aforementioned telecine transfers of regular 8mm film. The telecine transfer did not behave differently from the other two DV files. (edDV, the transfers were done last year, so it is too late to follow your suggestion, unless I have some redone.)

Bob, Yadif require more processing power. It must be the Atom processor since all play on my Core2/4.

[edDV]

Re: MPCHC uses DXVA

I never heard of DXVA, so I searched it. This lead me to also read about DirectShow, and its replacement, Media Foundation.

If I understand this correctly, Media Foundation decodes raw DV:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd940322(VS.85).aspx

A modern display card will have DXVA access for hardware playback acceleration.

[jagabo]

I don't think DXVA will handle DV. It's usually used for h.264 and sometimes MPEG2 and VC1.

Something is seriously borked with VLC's DV playback. Many of the output devices and deinterlacing options don't work when playing DV.

[NY2LA]

The AVI container doesn't really support aspect ratios. Individual codecs can contain aspect ratio information within their private data. DV has such an aspect ratio flag. Not all DV decoders see it or pass the aspect ratio information to other filters within the filter graph used for playing the video. All filters along the graph must support aspect ratio signaling. MPCHC doesn't include its own DV decoder so it is using the system DV decoder.

Video can use either PAR or DAR flags to indicate the final display aspect ratio:

DAR = SAR * PAR

DAR = final display aspect ratio (what you see on-screen)
SAR = storage aspect ratio (frame dimensions in pixels)
PAR = pixel aspect ratio (shape of individual pixels)

Thanks for your latest comment, jagabo. Also, related to your earlier comment, quoted above:

Using a program called DV Analyzer, I see the following DV metadata in my DV files:

Pixel Aspect Ratio: 0.889

Display Aspect Ratio: 1.333

Display Aspect Ratio/String: 4:3

Apparently, VLC is not using this information properly?

[jagabo]

Using a program called DV Analyzer, I see the following DV metadata in my DV files:

Pixel Aspect Ratio: 0.889

Display Aspect Ratio: 1.333

Display Aspect Ratio/String: 4:3

Apparently, VLC is not using this information properly?

It plays 4:3 DAR DV AVI as 4:3 DAR on my computers. I don't have any 16:9 DV AVI files to test.

[NY2LA]

For a medium to premium level HDTV (e.g. Samsumg level 5 or better), case 2c should get the best result with the HDTV doing all the work.

I'm not sure what you mean by level 5. Mine is a Samsung Series 4 451. Its upscaling of standard definition composite analog looks good to me.

[edDV]

For a medium to premium level HDTV (e.g. Samsumg level 5 or better), case 2c should get the best result with the HDTV doing all the work.

I'm not sure what you mean by level 5. Mine is a Samsung Series 4 451. Its upscaling of standard definition composite analog looks good to me.

Level 4 is the value line found in discount stores. These have a more generic level of video processing (e.g. deinterlace, inverse telecine, scaling, etc.) but are much better than a few years ago.

The level 5 models are now all 1080p with either 60 Hz or 120 Hz processors. The latest processing chips are found in level 6 up. Levels 7, 8 and 9 add advanced networking features and some offer 3D processing. The newest models have 4 digit series numbers.
http://www.samsung.com/us/video/tvs?prd_ia_url_name_path=video|tvs&landing_yn=N&sort_t...b2c_typ_cd=B2C

[NY2LA]

Level 4 is the value line found in discount stores. These have a more generic level of video processing (e.g. deinterlace, inverse telecine, scaling, etc.) but are much better than a few years ago.

The level 5 models are now all 1080p with either 60 Hz or 120 Hz processors. The latest processing chips are found in level 6 up. Levels 7, 8 and 9 add advanced networking features and some offer 3D processing. The newest models have 4 digit series numbers.
http://www.samsung.com/us/video/tvs?prd_ia_url_name_path=video|tvs&landing_yn=N&sort_t...b2c_typ_cd=B2C

I got mine at Best Buy.

[edDV]

Level 4 is the value line found in discount stores. These have a more generic level of video processing (e.g. deinterlace, inverse telecine, scaling, etc.) but are much better than a few years ago.

The level 5 models are now all 1080p with either 60 Hz or 120 Hz processors. The latest processing chips are found in level 6 up. Levels 7, 8 and 9 add advanced networking features and some offer 3D processing. The newest models have 4 digit series numbers.
http://www.samsung.com/us/video/tvs?prd_ia_url_name_path=video|tvs&landing_yn=N&so rt_type=&b2b_b2c_typ_cd=B2C

I got mine at Best Buy.

So, if you feed the TV 720x480i, the TV does all the processing work. If you use MPCHC or VLC to deinterlace and upscale through the display card, the TV just does the final scale to native display resolution.

Try it both ways and see which you like.

[NY2LA]

To get 16 fps to interlace DV format will require them to slow the projector to 14.985 fps for double gate (2x frame repeat) to 29.97. The resulting interlace video will not be a conventional 2:3 telecine. This may confuse some HDTV processors.

The transfers were done (last year) on Rank Cintel, not a projector based film chain system. So perhaps the speed was more precise?

I spoke to the technician today to ask about the pulldown used. He preferred the term "sequence", because the Rank doesn't use claws to literally pull down the film. He said the Rank, "multipulses to slow the film down to the correct speed." He didn't know the sequence exactly, though, because the Rank does it automatically.

I used his service called "controlled one light", which involves an auto corrector that does corrections in one frame (no one else has this, he says). Also, sometimes he stops the process in order to fix levels, and starts again. I believe it, because when checking all of the transfers, I never saw an "on the fly" correction during a scene. But this also means the "sequence", or pulldown (we can still call it that), changed every time he did such an edit.

I don't yet know what the consequences are going to be of this possible variation in the pulldown, when either deinterlacing in an NLE, or having a program like VLC deinterlace for presentation.

[NY2LA]

Please find the Boxee Box supported file types and container formats here:
http://forums.boxee.tv/showthread.php?t=18698

Can anyone explain why DV is in parentheses after MPEG-4? That doesn't make any sense to me.

[NY2LA]

A sign of things to come:

SMP8656 - Secure Media Processor™
http://www.sigmadesigns.com/products.php?id=120

SMP8910 - Secure Media Processor™
http://www.sigmadesigns.com/products.php?id=131

Note support for DV (IEC 61834 and SMPTE 314M) listed under Video Decoding for both products.

[NY2LA]

Mac uses a containerless dv stream. It is very similar to to the start/stop stream recorded to tape. Windows usually wraps the dv video and pcm audio streams into an avi wrapper. All DirectShow processing of DV is done assuming the avi wrapper. An alternate wrapper used in pro environments is MXF. The goal of MXF is support of all pro codecs (e.g. DV, DVCPro, XDCAM, AVC-Intra, etc.).

I'm reading Compression for Great Video and Audio by Ben Waggoner, Second Edition (2010).

Page 512: "Windows has included a DV25 decoder since DirectShow was introduced. It supports .dv and .mov wrappers as well as .avi for easy interoperability."

Page 504: "Direct Show and Media Foundation codecs need to explicitly have VfW support turned on, which is why some codecs like Microsoft's DV implementation don't show up in VirtualDub or other VfW apps (if any others are left)."

I am still experimenting with playing my raw DV stream files (.dv extension) on my netbook with Windows 7. I still haven't set up an HTPC, but still plan to.

How do I turn on VfW support? Could it not being turned on be the reason Media Player Classic Home Cinema and Windows Media Player do not play my raw DV Stream files?

[edDV]

Mac uses a containerless dv stream. It is very similar to to the start/stop stream recorded to tape. Windows usually wraps the dv video and pcm audio streams into an avi wrapper. All DirectShow processing of DV is done assuming the avi wrapper. An alternate wrapper used in pro environments is MXF. The goal of MXF is support of all pro codecs (e.g. DV, DVCPro, XDCAM, AVC-Intra, etc.).

I'm reading Compression for Great Video and Audio by Ben Waggoner, Second Edition (2010).

Page 512: "Windows has included a DV25 decoder since DirectShow was introduced. It supports .dv and .mov wrappers as well as .avi for easy interoperability."

Page 504: "Direct Show and Media Foundation codecs need to explicitly have VfW support turned on, which is why some codecs like Microsoft's DV implementation don't show up in VirtualDub or other VfW apps (if any others are left)."

I am still experimenting with playing my raw DV stream files (.dv extension) on my netbook with Windows 7. I still haven't set up an HTPC, but still plan to.

How do I turn on VfW support? Could it not being turned on be the reason Media Player Classic Home Cinema and Windows Media Player do not play my raw DV Stream files?

Windows/DirectShow expects DV in an AVI wrapper. Best to do the conversion in Mac Quicktime. Quicktime for Windows may work. No time now to try it for you.

[NY2LA]

Windows/DirectShow expects DV in an AVI wrapper. Best to do the conversion in Mac Quicktime. Quicktime for Windows may work. No time now to try it for you.

I've found out that MPEG Streamclip on the Mac probably works well to do the conversion you speak of. But I really don't understand your response. With my limited knowledge, it seems to contradict what Waggoner says. ("It supports .dv and .mov wrappers as well as .avi . . ."). Waggoner is a principal video strategist at Microsoft, according to the book's back cover. Perhaps there is something I am not understanding.

[edDV]

He may be talking API elementary stream level rather than Windows player support.

[NY2LA]

He may be talking API elementary stream level rather than Windows player support.

If so, hopefully that will change with Windows 8.

[NY2LA]

I've found out that MPEG Streamclip on the Mac probably works well to do the conversion you speak of.

Forget what I said about using MPEG Streamclip for this. I don't see any feature for doing this that doesn't look like it re-encodes.

[edDV]

[QUOTE=NY2LA;2094050]

I've found out that MPEG Streamclip on the Mac probably works well to do the conversion you speak of.

Forget what I said about using MPEG Streamclip for this. I don't see any feature for doing this that doesn't look like it re-encodes.

There is no need to re-encode anything. dv is an elementary DV format video stream. Audio is uncompressed PCM. DV-AVI is the dv stream+PCM audio+metadata wrapped (muxed) as AVI. There is no recode loss. Type 1 is an interleaved stream. Type 2 adds a second separate PCM audio stream copy to the mux (eliminates need to deinterleave for simple audio edit).

[NY2LA]

There is no need to re-encode anything.

Yes, I understand. I am saying that MPEG Streamclip's Export to AVI... feature looks like it re-encodes, so it is not the right tool to use.

[edDV]

I don't have a Mac here or even a *.dv file to test on Windows.

[jagabo]

I have a raw (containerless) DV file that I downloaded from here some time back. VLC can play it, as is. It can also remux raw dv into an AVI container using its File -> Convert/Save feature. It gives the file the odd fourcc "dv " which no decoder (except VLC) understands. But using a hex editor to change the fourcc to "dvsd" made the file playable in other players. AviSynth can open the elementary stream with the ffmpeg source plugin:

ffvideosource("raw.dv")

[NY2LA]

An update, to whom it may concern:

I discovered that MPEG Streamclip (on my Mac) offers Save as . . . with an option to select AVI in a pull down menu. However, when using this feature to save raw DV files as AVI, the resulting AVI files play with video but lack audio. Media Info also shows no audio in the AVI files. (However, strangely, the file size doesn't change, or doesn't change enough to account for missing audio.)

The same thing happens if a save raw DV files as AVI with Quicktime Player 7 (registered as Quicktime Pro) on my Mac.

I copied these test AVI files over to my Windows netbook via an ex-FAT formatted USB thumb drive. The files also play back with video and lack audio in Windows Media Player.

I came up with a workaround, which is far from ideal. If I first create a Quicktime movie from the raw DV (without re-encoding), and then save the Quicktime movie as AVI with MPEG Streamclip, the resulting AVI file plays with video and audio just fine on Windows or Mac. (However, I had to use a Final Cut Express to create the Quicktime movie, not Quicktime Player, in order for this to work.)