How Do I Play Raw DV Stream Files on a TV?

[edDV]

You should be seeing most of these choices in v8. Each has extensive custom template choices.

[tonyp2]

Hey, whaddya know? It worked! I've reinstalled this thing more than once and was unable to get MPEG-2 to show up, but this time I decided to do a Registry clean before the reinstall and there it was. So for the type of HD display I have, what would be the best Template to use?

[edDV]

Hey, whaddya know? It worked! I've reinstalled this thing more than once and was unable to get MPEG-2 to show up, but this time I decided to do a Registry clean before the reinstall and there it was. So for the type of HD display I have, what would be the best Template to use?

Sony plays hell with your Vegas for dual installs even if the terms say this is OK. The terms say you can only use one at a time. Problem is they want a re-activation to change hardware. Don't get me going.

This even happens if you own multiple licenses.

[tonyp2]

Tell me about it! I'm still having trouble getting this and SoundForge to play nice. So definitely thanks for making me try it one more time. So to do a conversion for a 1080p display, should I still be using the DVD NTSC Video Stream Template? Or would I go with HDV 1080-60i?

[edDV]

Tell me about it! I'm still having trouble getting this and SoundForge to play nice. So definitely thanks for making me try it one more time. So to do a conversion for a 1080p display, should I still be using the DVD NTSC Video Stream Template? Or would I go with HDV 1080-60i?

Depends on your source. We have been talking about SD DV format. A good HDTV will deinterlace and upscale better than Vegas or most software techniques.

And yes, SoundForge is even more difficult for activation.

[tonyp2]

Depends on your source. We have been talking about SD DV format. A good HDTV will deinterlace and upscale better than Vegas or most software techniques.

Okay. Well in my case I have mostly material that was captured to disk via my Canopus ADVC110 (that explains the DV video part). So simply by the nature of its capture it is in SD format. Then I have some stuff that was transferred to disk from my 720p DV video cam. But let's start with the Canopus stuff since that's the majority of what I have. In general is it best to retain the native resolution of the material when doing a conversion like this? So given that the stuff off the Canopus is NTSC SD, I should stick with DVD NTSC or DVD NTSC Video Stream? Let the display do the rest?

Not sure just what DVD Architect NTSC Video Stream brings to the table.

[edDV]

Depends on your source. We have been talking about SD DV format. A good HDTV will deinterlace and upscale better than Vegas or most software techniques.

Okay. Well in my case I have mostly material that was captured to disk via my Canopus ADVC110 (that explains the DV video part). So simply by the nature of its capture it is in SD format. Then I have some stuff that was transferred to disk from my 720p DV video cam. But let's start with the Canopus stuff since that's the majority of what I have. In general is it best to retain the native resolution of the material when doing a conversion like this? So given that the stuff off the Canopus is NTSC SD, I should stick with DVD NTSC or DVD NTSC Video Stream? Let the display do the rest?

Yes for two reasons.

1. An HDTV deinterlaces and upscales in hardware. A good TV (above value models) will have sopphisticted motion adaptive bobbers that retain 60 frame per second motion or even interpolate to 120 frames per second. It would take days of PC computation to match the performance of a quality HDTV. They also upscale to 1080p native resolution in one step.

2. SD files are smaller with less bit rate. This is better for server storage and networking. If you software upscaled properly to 1920x1080p, your 13-20 GB/hr SD files would quatruple in size for MPeg2 or double for h.264/VC-1. The smaller you squeeze files for compression, the longer the CPU time to render.

[edDV]

Not sure just what DVD Architect NTSC Video Stream brings to the table.

Those templates will open in the DVD Architect authoring program without a re-render. They would be DVD ready.

You can modify under the "Custom" menu for many other purposes including reducing GOP length to 1 (all I frames). You need to compensate with more bit rate.

The main benefit of all I frame Mpeg2 is editing ease but if you give it sufficient bit rate, quality will also be maximized. As said above the all I frame SD MPeg IMX format used in XDCAM can be 30, 40 or 50 Mb/s. The HD versions of the format use 15 frame GOPs.

Its good for a beginner to experiment with these highest end formats so you have a comparision point for more compressed codecs or settings. You will be surpriced how much compression you can apply with small picture quality loss. Still, the deinterlacer/scaler in the HDTV will perform better with higher bit rate source.

[NY2LA]

Eventually media servers, media players and/or HDTV sets will add DV playback codecs. That would make all this h.264 transcoding work redundant.

Music to my ears.

[NY2LA]

If you really want top quality irrespective of file size look at MPeg2 720x480i between 25 and 50 Mb/s*. You could also experiment with all I frame MPeg2 and see if the TV codec will take it. All I frame MPeg2 is essentially the same thing as DV format but with 4:2:0 color map instead of 4:1:1 (for NTSC).

Apparently, the Library of Congress prefers:

"For file-based compressed video, conform to or approximate MPEG-2_422 (4:2:2 Profile) at Main Level (aka MPEG-2 422@ML) or MPEG-2_MP (this document; Main Profile) at Main Level (aka MPEG-2 MP@ML). Uncompressed or losslessly compressed copies are preferred to compressed (for future development).For file-based compressed video, conform to or approximate MPEG-2_422 (4:2:2 Profile) at Main Level (aka MPEG-2 422@ML) or MPEG-2_MP (this document; Main Profile) at Main Level (aka MPEG-2 MP@ML). Uncompressed or losslessly compressed copies are preferred to compressed (for future development)."

See local use preference at:
http://www.digitalpreservation.gov/formats/fdd/fdd000032.shtml

I've been wondering what the heck this is. Is it essentially DV except for the different chroma sub sampling?

[edDV]

See local use preference at:
http://www.digitalpreservation.gov/formats/fdd/fdd000032.shtml

I've been wondering what the heck this is. Is it essentially DV except for the different chroma sub sampling?

Not sure what you are asking. Thought we were talking about something an HDTV would accept.

720x480i DV format includes all frames with a light 5x intraframe DCT compression. Chroma sampling is 4:1:1.

720x480i DVD MPeg2 has 15 frame GOPS with intraframe and interframe (motion) compression and is sampled 4:2:0.

All I frame (GOP=1) MPeg2 would be similar to DV format (intraframe compression only) but would be 4:2:0.

MPeg422 wouldn't be accepted by any TV set. Consumer MPeg formats (including DVD, Blu-Ray) are all 4:2:0 sampled.

[NY2LA]

Not sure what you are asking. Thought we were talking about something an HDTV would accept.

In addition to wanting to play my DV files on an HDTV, I want my media files to survive me. I mean, I am interested in considering file formats most likely to still be around, with tools for support and playback, rather than being obsolete, in the future. For some reason, many heritage institutions think MPEG-2 is the way to go.

[edDV]

Not sure what you are asking. Thought we were talking about something an HDTV would accept.

In addition to wanting to play my DV files on an HDTV, I want my media files to survive me. I mean, I am interested in considering file formats most likely to still be around, with tools for support and playback, rather than being obsolete, in the future. For some reason, many heritage institutions think MPEG-2 is the way to go.

Your best archive format for quality is native DV. MPeg2 (all I frame) would be a somewhat lossy conversion. DV will continue to be supported in prosumer and professional environments. Most SD pro archives are DV, DVCAM or DVCPro.

If you are concerned about low tech consumer access, DVD MPeg2 (interlace and high bit rate) is the most universal at the consumer level but is a significant step down in quality from DV. DVD MPeg2 is compatible with all media players and will continue to be.

So I would recommend you save both. I do.

[NY2LA]

Your best archive format for quality is native DV. MPeg2 (all I frame) would be a somewhat lossy conversion. DV will continue to be supported in prosumer and professional environments. Most SD pro archives are DV, DVCAM or DVCPro.

If you are concerned about low tech consumer access, DVD MPeg2 (interlace and high bit rate) is the most universal at the consumer level but is a significant step down in quality from DV. DVD MPeg2 is compatible with all media players and will continue to be.

So I would recommend you save both. I do.

Makes perfect sense to me. Thanks.

[NY2LA]

VLC and MPCHC play DV

VLC can be set to stream interlace or deinterlace to the HDTV.

Another question comes to mind.

My DV files are currently located on external drives formatted with the HFS Plus file system because I've been using a Mac. The DV files are 10GB each or more.

If I purchase a Windows laptop for using MPCHC, what would be the best way to copy the DV files to it (or to an external drive for use with the Windows laptop)?

[edDV]

VLC and MPCHC play DV

VLC can be set to stream interlace or deinterlace to the HDTV.

Another question comes to mind.

My DV files are currently located on external drives formatted with the HFS Plus file system because I've been using a Mac. The DV files are 10GB each or more.

If I purchase a Windows laptop for using MPCHC, what would be the best way to copy the DV files to it (or to an external drive for use with the Windows laptop)?

Oh yes, the Mac incompatibility issues

You can access the disk over a network or buy PC software that can access disks with HFS file system directly.

But that is just the first layer. The player or editor needs to read the Mac *.dv files. Not many do.

Or you can rewrap *.dv into DV-AVI (no loss).

[NY2LA]

But that is just the first layer. The player or editor needs to read the Mac *.dv files. Not many do.

What do you mean? They a raw DV Stream files. What is unusual about Mac DV files? I already know, from uploading and downloading test files, they do play with Quicktime player on Windows computer. Are you saying they might not play with other software?

[jagabo]

But that is just the first layer. The player or editor needs to read the Mac *.dv files. Not many do.

What do you mean? They a raw DV Stream files. What is unusual about Mac DV files? I already know, from uploading and downloading test files, they do play with Quicktime player on Windows computer. Are you saying they might not play with other software?

Yes, that's what he's saying. Most Windows media players and editors will not play/edit containerless DV files.

[edDV]

VLC might. Try it.

VLC on the Mac plays either as I recall.

Quicktime for Windows doesn't play .dv last I checked.

[NY2LA]

VLC might. Try it.

VLC on the Mac plays either as I recall.

Quicktime for Windows doesn't play .dv last I checked.

I have a Windows netbook. Quicktime Player for Windows plays .dv files. On the other hand, Windows Media Player would not play .dv files when I tried it.

[NY2LA]

But that is just the first layer. The player or editor needs to read the Mac *.dv files. Not many do.

What do you mean? They a raw DV Stream files. What is unusual about Mac DV files? I already know, from uploading and downloading test files, they do play with Quicktime player on Windows computer. Are you saying they might not play with other software?

Yes, that's what he's saying. Most Windows media players and editors will not play/edit containerless DV files.

I don't understand what edDV means by Mac *.dv files, as if to distinguish .dv files created on a Mac, and .dv files created elsewhere. And what does the asterisk mean?

[edDV]

But that is just the first layer. The player or editor needs to read the Mac *.dv files. Not many do.

What do you mean? They a raw DV Stream files. What is unusual about Mac DV files? I already know, from uploading and downloading test files, they do play with Quicktime player on Windows computer. Are you saying they might not play with other software?

Yes, that's what he's saying. Most Windows media players and editors will not play/edit containerless DV files.

I don't understand what edDV means by Mac *.dv files, as if to distinguish .dv files created on a Mac, and .dv files created elsewhere. And what does the asterisk mean?

Mac uses a containerless dv stream. It is very similar to to the start/stop stream recorded to tape. Windows usually wraps the dv video and pcm audio streams into an avi wrapper. All DirectShow processing of DV is done assuming the avi wrapper. An alternate wrapper used in pro environments is MXF. The goal of MXF is support of all pro codecs (e.g. DV, DVCPro, XDCAM, AVC-Intra, etc.).

For seemingly petty reasons, the Mac OSX has never supported DV-AVI except in Quicktime conversion, and Windows and most Windows Applications have never supported .dv. In the past Quicktime for Windows also lacked .dv support. Maybe it does now.

*.dv, *.mpg, *.jpg is a notation for a wildcard * file name plus extension as often used for Unix, DOS, Windows etc.

[NY2LA]

Mac uses a containerless dv stream. It is very similar to to the start/stop stream recorded to tape. Windows usually wraps the dv video and pcm audio streams into an avi wrapper. All DirectShow processing of DV is done assuming the avi wrapper. An alternate wrapper used in pro environments is MXF. The goal of MXF is support of all pro codecs (e.g. DV, DVCPro, XDCAM, AVC-Intra, etc.).

For seemingly petty reasons, the Mac OSX has never supported DV-AVI except in Quicktime conversion, and Windows and most Windows Applications have never supported .dv. In the past Quicktime for Windows also lacked .dv support. Maybe it does now.

*.dv, *.mpg, *.jpg is a notation for a wildcard * file name plus extension as often used for Unix, DOS, Windows etc.

Okay, I understand now.


FYI

Premiere Elements 8.0 for Windows, supported file types for import include:

DV Stream (.dv)

http://help.adobe.com/en_US/PremiereElements/8.0/Win/Using/WS300DE01D-F057-4639-96D1-F...EEE163C24.html

(Import only? Not export?)


Also can be used on Windows:

Live Capture Plus 2.2

http://www.squarebox.co.uk/lcplus.html

"Capture as a raw DV stream..."

[edDV]

Mac uses a containerless dv stream. It is very similar to to the start/stop stream recorded to tape. Windows usually wraps the dv video and pcm audio streams into an avi wrapper. All DirectShow processing of DV is done assuming the avi wrapper. An alternate wrapper used in pro environments is MXF. The goal of MXF is support of all pro codecs (e.g. DV, DVCPro, XDCAM, AVC-Intra, etc.).

For seemingly petty reasons, the Mac OSX has never supported DV-AVI except in Quicktime conversion, and Windows and most Windows Applications have never supported .dv. In the past Quicktime for Windows also lacked .dv support. Maybe it does now.

*.dv, *.mpg, *.jpg is a notation for a wildcard * file name plus extension as often used for Unix, DOS, Windows etc.

Okay, I understand now.


FYI

Premiere Elements 8.0 for Windows, supported file types for import include:

DV Stream (.dv)

http://help.adobe.com/en_US/PremiereElements/8.0/Win/Using/WS300DE01D-F057-4639-96D1-F...EEE163C24.html

(Import only? Not export?)


Also can be used on Windows:

Live Capture Plus 2.2

http://www.squarebox.co.uk/lcplus.html

"Capture as a raw DV stream..."

After 12 years of DV they are finally responding to user desires. Apple is still the problem. You should be able to directly import and export DV-AVI to iMovie, FCE and FCP. They make you convert these huge files.

[NY2LA]

VLC and MPCHC play DV

VLC can be set to stream interlace or deinterlace to the HDTV.

I finally downloaded and installed VLC on my Windows netbook (the only Windows computer I have right now.) It plays my sample raw DV stream file. However, it defaults to an incorrect aspect ratio (encoded pixels???). And I don't see how to reset the aspect ratio.

Quicktime Player for Windows doesn't do this with raw DV stream files. (I've tried it with the same file.) It defaults to the correct aspect ratio for DV.

As you know, DV video pixels are not square, because of the horizontal sampling rate determined by the DV-NTSC standard.

[edDV]

VLC and MPCHC play DV

VLC can be set to stream interlace or deinterlace to the HDTV.

I finally downloaded and installed VLC on my Windows netbook (the only Windows computer I have right now.) It plays my sample raw DV stream file. However, it defaults to an incorrect aspect ratio (encoded pixels???). And I don't see how to reset the aspect ratio.

Quicktime Player for Windows doesn't do this with raw DV stream files. (I've tried it with the same file.) It defaults to the correct aspect ratio for DV.

As you know, DV video pixels are not square, because of the horizontal sampling rate determined by the DV-NTSC standard.

VLC and MPCHC play DV-AVI in correct aspect ratio. My Mac died so I can't access my .dv files.

In VLC, under "Video" you can force set aspect ratio. Mine is set to "default".

You should also set deinterlace to Yadif or Yadif(2x). You can also set this in Perferences for auto deinterlace.

[NY2LA]

VLC and MPCHC play DV

VLC can be set to stream interlace or deinterlace to the HDTV.

I found the aspect ratio settings in VLC's Video pull down menu. But I am only able to change it during playback of the video, which is strange. Otherwise, it is greyed.

I find it annoying to have to change it. Playback of DV-NTSC should default to its proper aspect ratio for presentation.

Right now, I am only checking playback on my netbook's monitor. What is the reason you mentioned the deinterlace feature?

[edDV]

VLC and MPCHC play DV

VLC can be set to stream interlace or deinterlace to the HDTV.

I found the aspect ratio settings in VLC's Video pull down menu. But I am only able to change it during playback of the video, which is strange. Otherwise, it is greyed.

I find it annoying to have to change it. Playback of DV-NTSC should default to its proper aspect ratio for presentation.

Right now, I am only checking playback on my netbook's monitor. What is the reason you mentioned the deinterlace feature?

DV should default to 4:3. A wide flag shows as 16:9.

Try MPCHC. It seems better with aspect ratio flags.

DV is interlace. The Yadif deinterlace works great without too much CPU load.

[NY2LA]

DV should default to 4:3. A wide flag shows as 16:9.

Try MPCHC. It seems better with aspect ratio flags.

DV is interlace. The Yadif deinterlace works great without too much CPU load.

Can you tell me more about the flags to which you refer? Is this in the metadata inside the .dv file?

The aspect ratio is not only a matter of the frame aspect ratio, i.e. 4:3 versus 16:9. The aspect ratio of concern is the pixel aspect ratio.

[jagabo]

The AVI container doesn't really support aspect ratios. Individual codecs can contain aspect ratio information within their private data. DV has such an aspect ratio flag. Not all DV decoders see it or pass the aspect ratio information to other filters within the filter graph used for playing the video. All filters along the graph must support aspect ratio signaling. MPCHC doesn't include its own DV decoder so it is using the system DV decoder.

Video can use either PAR or DAR flags to indicate the final display aspect ratio:

DAR = SAR * PAR

DAR = final display aspect ratio (what you see on-screen)
SAR = storage aspect ratio (frame dimensions in pixels)
PAR = pixel aspect ratio (shape of individual pixels)