Nothing is ever the way you want it to be, tmpgenc vs CCE

[vulcan4d]

Ever since I got my Apex player I've been testing out different conversion settings using various programs. What I was testing mostly, was the conversion of divX to SVCD. Here is what I found out and my problem,

TMPGenc:
Lord I spent a lot of time testing settings with this program. I tested the normal TMPGenc and the TMPGenc PRO, but for the most part they are the same. I tested making SVCD's using various settings of CBR, VBR (old and new 2 pass), CQ_VBR, CQ, with different quality settings and filters including the noise filter (set on normal and high). Thank god this DVD player can read CDRWs, I would have spend a lot of $$$ for cdr's . CBR and VBR had pretty much the same quality but VBR saved around 140mb. The CBR file was 780mb (fits on 80min CD), and the VBR file was 640mb (fits easily on a 74min CD). That sounds good but I don't like it. Obvisouly VBR saves space and therefore you can have better quality for the same amount of space used by a CBR video, but I can't figure out what to set the bitrate at so it fills the 80min CD. I know it's bigger obviously, but by how much. For me it's like a guessing game, so I'll stick with CBR, it's a lot easier . The noise filter is super, set at high quality it takes a while to convert but CBR+high quality noise filter takes the same amount of time as a 2 pass VBR conversion without noise, so again I'll stick with CBR . Unfortunately out of the 100+ tests I did with TMPGEnc, no matter how good the noise filter was this program created some of it's own noise . It's hard to discibe, it's not the kind of noise you see from analog cable TV, and it's not the digital blocky stuff you see in bad conversions either. There are these very short horizontal and vertical lines, and they pulse in and out, it's quite annoying. They are VERY EASILY seen on black, and they are all over the screen. There is some of the normal noise there too pulsing in and out, but that is seen on normal colors. I tried converting the DivX movie to VCD instead of SVCD, same thing. TMPGEnc is a great and easy program, practilcy everything you need, but unfortunately the conversion quality is HORRIBLE. I'm saying horrible because these things are so easily seen that it ruins the movie. If it wasn't for this problem, I would say it was excellent because it's sharp and the noise filter is the best! Maybe this can be fixed in an newer version.

Cinema Craft Encoder SP 2.5+2.6X
The steps necessary in making a SVCD using the CCE method isn't as easy as with Tmpgenc, but I'll do anything to get those artifacts out. Before saying some things about the program I would first like to say that virtualdub isn't necessary for seperating the video, audio. The frameserver isn't necessary either. Just simply download and install vfapi which you can find in the tool section. This program makes a fake avi file from saved TMPGenc project file. The conversion to this fake avi file is very quick, just make sure you set all the settings in TMPGenc as you would for a normal SVCD (check TMPGenc guide to making SVCDs). This is also the method you would have to use if you were using CCE 2.6X because newer version than 2.5 do not accept .vbr files. Make sure you export the audio from CCE, it'll be mpa file but that will work because it's just like a mp2. I tested this program quite a lot aswell. If you go with CCE one thing is for soure, you HAVE TO, I repeat you HAVE TO, use pulldown after if the video framerate is 24 and not 30. For TMPGenc, it didn't matter, the movie played just fine at 24fps. For CCE, if you don't use pulldown after your movie will skip. I don't like this because you have better video quality in a movie at 24fps than a 30fps movie at the same bitrate. If someone knows a way of how I can keep my movies at 24fps please say so, I want the best quality I can get . Whether you multiplex with bbmpg (avi2mpg2) or with TMPGEnc, it's the same so it's your choise really. The noise filter isn't as good in CCE as in TMPGenc. in TMPGenc, the noise filter killed the noise but didn't blur the image much. CCE blurs the image too much if you set the setting too high. TMPGenc noise filter is slow, while CCE is very fast so I guess it balances out. For slower computers I would highly suggest CCE if you want to play around with the noise filter. When played in the DVD player the artifacts do not show up as they did using TMPGenc, so it seems for me CCE is the way to go.

Conclusion:
As you can see TMPGenc is still necessary with the CCE method, well at least for me . TMPGenc would blow CCE out of the sky if it converted the video properly. I tried loads of settings and none of them got rid off those artifacts. If anyone knows what I'm talking about and knows a way to get rid of them, TELL ME NOW!!! .

[t1955feb]

DVD2SVCD works for me no artifacts

[FranckV]

I basically agree with what you are saying except that I do not see why you would need to use pulldown with CCE if you don't with TMPGEnc.

Did you check the MPG file you made with TMPGEnc at 24 fps with Bitrate Viewer to see if they have really been made at 24 fps ?

[energy80s]

I assume that "Pulldown" is only needed for NTSC discs. A PAL encode of a PAL DVD should be fine without pulldown, shouldn't it?

[FranckV]

3:2 pulldown is only for NTSC to go from 23.97 fps to 29.97 fps.

In case of PAL, you need to go from 24 fps to 25 fps (don't you ?) and I do not know how this is done.

[Truman]

Sorry vulcan4d, I do not know what you are talking about, so I can not help you in this special case.
First I want to thank you, that you tested a lot before posting. Doing this is not very populare these days....
Let me add some words.
NTSC SVCDs have to be 29.97fps. However, it's possible to encode them at 23.976fps progressive and insert rff and tff flags which will tell the player to perform a 3:2 pulldown during playback, making the video 29.97fps for your NTSC TV. The framerate is still 23.976, but it makes the dvd player thinking it would be 29.97. You have to use pulldown, no matter which encoder you use.
VBR can save space. You can calculate the filesize, if you use CBR or at least 2pass VBR. Calculate the average bitrate. Only the average bitrate does effect the filesize.

[MITSUI_1]

Unfortunately out of the 100+ tests I did with TMPGEnc, no matter how good the noise filter was this program created some of it's own noise . It's hard to discibe, it's not the kind of noise you see from analog cable TV, and it's not the digital blocky stuff you see in bad conversions either. There are these very short horizontal and vertical lines, and they pulse in and out, it's quite annoying. They are VERY EASILY seen on black, and they are all over the screen. There is some of the normal noise there too pulsing in and out, but that is seen on normal colors.

Two comments:

These are artifacts from trying to recompress DIVX MPEG 4 into MPEG2. MPEG 4 plays games with technically "imperfect" human vision by throwing away data that our visual perception won't detect. Playing the DIVX, you won't notice it 'cause your eyes don't see it. BUT, the MPEG 2 encoder "sees" the glitches and trys to encode them but you wind up seeing it in the final result.

Second observation, if you see ANYTHING on "pure black" screens, you need to do some color correction. I'd do "simple" color correction in TMPTenc... set Contrast to 15 to 20 and Brightness to -3 to -1. Lower Gamma by to -4 to -10. Make sure you ONLY check the "floating point" option on the TMPGe screen that has the quantizer.

I can now consistently get very good MPEG1 and MPEG2 conversions out of TMPGenc, but it took a LOT of experimenting. My practice was to convert the same 10 minute sequence (with low and high action) 10 or so times with various settings and burn all versions onto one CDRW. This allowed me to browse the results on my Apex 1500 and decide what settings were working right.

[sambucca]

Mitsui_1, and?
what settings got you the best picture?

Please post them.

Thanx in advance

[vhelp]

evening MITSUI_I and all,

I'm with you. I pretty do the same thing when encoding or researching
the best encode quality. I'm for quality, not size. But, size is what I go
for "after" I've nabbed the quality thing.

Anyways, I go an even step further. . . I have TWO Apex AD-1500
dvd players. Ok, I WAS gonna give my 1st one to a friend, but I decided
to cancel that idea. Why, well, becaues NOW i can really juge for quality
but with better accuracy. What I'm saying is, I can put a DVD disk in my
1st ad-1500, and MY encoded VCD or SVCD disk in my 2nd ad-1500 and
coupled with an 4pos A/B switch setup, I can quick play both at the same
time and judge for quality, color, sharpness, etc, etc. Virtually impossible
to do had you only one ad-1500. And, not all dvd players are the same
and quality most likley be off some. So, judging for quality is [b]THAT[b] much
closer/accurate, he, he.. .. ..

-vhelp

[speedy726]

Mitsui,

Second observation, if you see ANYTHING on "pure black" screens, you need to do some color correction. I'd do "simple" color correction in TMPTenc... set Contrast to 15 to 20 and Brightness to -3 to -1. Lower Gamma by to -4 to -10. Make sure you ONLY check the "floating point" option on the TMPGe screen that has the quantizer.

Are you referring to making the black bars on the top and bottom of a 'widecreened' movie even blacker?