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  1. Member
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    Like many, I wanted to convert my vhs to dvd's. Based on what I read here, I bought a used JVC SR-V101US VCR and DR-M10 DVD recorder on ebay. When I played the tapes on the VCR with the TBC/NR on, I could clearly see cleaner images, but it was not perfect. I noticed faint yellowish horizontal lines, equally spaced on the upper part of the picture which I was unable to remove. Was it unrealistic on my part to expect that the TBC/NR would clean up the image 100% or is the used VCR I bought a dud? Also, I noticed that the JVC DR-M10 which has its own noise filters didn't clean up the image. I am unsure how to proceed with my video conversion.
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  2. Mod Neophyte Super Moderator redwudz's Avatar
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    A lot depends on the original VHS quality. Unfortunately, VHS quality and VHS video that is correctly set to the exact VHS specification is not that usual. There is a lot of latitude, which is a common problem with analog video.

    What you could do is post a representative video clip, 30MB or less and someone here may be able to give you some improvement tips. Generally TBCs correct timing problems, not video noise.

    And welcome to our forums.
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    Try starting here:
    http://www.digitalfaq.com/
    Last edited by sanlyn; 20th Mar 2014 at 15:54.
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  4. Member BrainStorm69's Avatar
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    It may be that you are seeing what is one of two issues with the JVC VCRs. One is that they soften the picture a bit, which some people like and some don't. The other is this:

    https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/222061-Problem-2-color-bands-from-JVC-SR-V101US?hig...ht=JVC+streaks
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    Originally Posted by BrainStorm69 View Post
    It may be that you are seeing what is one of two issues with the JVC VCRs. One is that they soften the picture a bit, which some people like and some don't. The other is this:

    https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/222061-Problem-2-color-bands-from-JVC-SR-V101US?hig...ht=JVC+streaks
    Streaks: I've seen that effect on all of my VCR's. Just one of those old NTSC/VHS bugs. Sometimes it's on the original tape, sometimes it's on playback. There are Virtualdub temporal-based filters that can clean it up.

    If the playback speed varies randomly, it's the VCR's fault. That problem isn't limited to JVC's. If it always happens at the same point, it's either the tape's fault or the fault of the original recorder.
    Last edited by sanlyn; 20th Mar 2014 at 15:54.
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  6. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Start here:
    - http://www.digitalFAQ.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/restore-filter-improve-17.html
    - http://www.digitalFAQ.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/project-planning-workflows-34.html
    - http://www.digitalFAQ.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/dvd-project-help-9.html
    - http://www.digitalFAQ.com/guides/video/index-restore.htm
    - https://forum.videohelp.com/forums/41-Restoration

    These topics have been covered many times -- often from posts I started and/or have answered for others.

    Originally Posted by FreddieP View Post
    Like many, I wanted to convert my vhs to dvd's. Based on what I read here, I bought a used JVC SR-V101US VCR and DR-M10 DVD recorder on ebay. When I played the tapes on the VCR with the TBC/NR on, I could clearly see cleaner images, but it was not perfect. I noticed faint yellowish horizontal lines, equally spaced on the upper part of the picture which I was unable to remove. Was it unrealistic on my part to expect that the TBC/NR would clean up the image 100% or is the used VCR I bought a dud? Also, I noticed that the JVC DR-M10 which has its own noise filters didn't clean up the image. I am unsure how to proceed with my video conversion.
    Your expectations are unrealistic for any setting, professional or forensic. The goal of restoring video is to make it better, not make it perfect. That is not to say, however, that your skills and methods don't need some tweaking or improvements. Nor would it rule out faulty equipment, should that be the case.
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    Originally Posted by FreddieP View Post
    Like many, I wanted to convert my vhs to dvd's. Based on what I read here, I bought a used JVC SR-V101US VCR and DR-M10 DVD recorder on ebay. When I played the tapes on the VCR with the TBC/NR on, I could clearly see cleaner images, but it was not perfect. I noticed faint yellowish horizontal lines, equally spaced on the upper part of the picture which I was unable to remove. Was it unrealistic on my part to expect that the TBC/NR would clean up the image 100% or is the used VCR I bought a dud? Also, I noticed that the JVC DR-M10 which has its own noise filters didn't clean up the image. I am unsure how to proceed with my video conversion.
    Adding to ls's comment:

    Those faint streaks aren't new to me. I've seen them on many tapes, whether played on a JVC or not. A TBC won't affect them. The TBC in your JVC VCR doesn't just improve a few parameters, it's also tied-in with digital image enhancement circuits. Turn of the TBC, and you also turn off the enhancements. Those enhancements aren't exclusive to JVC; many Panasonic VCR's have them turned on all the time.

    Many temporal-based (but usually not spatial-based) VirtualDub filters help remove things like faint streaks. VirtualDub's built-in temporal filter works on them, but don't use temporal filters beyond their midpoint values or you'll have ghosting and motion trails. One of the best VDub filters I've seen for many tasks is NeatVideo with its temporal filter turned on to a value of 1 or 2 (ditto about using temporal filters at strong values). NeatVideo is a combination temporal-spatial filter; you can turn off either filter section if you want. It's highly configurable, which takes a little study but is worth it. NV Home Version isn't free, but it isn't that expensive and is excellent value. You wouldn't need the Pro version. NV has a trial version that works on AVI video up to 640x480 format. Others have suggested various AviSynth filters, but I've found them to be ineffective on the problem you describe.

    If you have to do a lot of cleanup on tapes, no DVD recorder can handle it. You'll have to record to an uncompressed or huffyuv AVI format and follow-up with PC software suitable to your media. Tape noise and other disturbances, once embedded into MPEG on a recorder or into other heavily compressed formats, are impossible to remove. Learning to use your PC for such work is the only way to go. Who knows, once you catch onto free stuff like VirtualDub you just might get hooked.
    Last edited by sanlyn; 20th Mar 2014 at 15:54.
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  8. If the streaks vary from frame to frame VirtualDub VHS filter (the temporal chroma noise reduction part) can reduce them. If they're in the same location on every frame that won't work.
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    Originally Posted by BrainStorm69 View Post
    It may be that you are seeing what is one of two issues with the JVC VCRs. One is that they soften the picture a bit, which some people like and some don't. The other is this:

    https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/222061-Problem-2-color-bands-from-JVC-SR-V101US?hig...ht=JVC+streaks
    The above link describes exactly what I am seeing.
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    Originally Posted by FreddieP View Post
    Originally Posted by BrainStorm69 View Post
    It may be that you are seeing what is one of two issues with the JVC VCRs. One is that they soften the picture a bit, which some people like and some don't. The other is this:

    https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/222061-Problem-2-color-bands-from-JVC-SR-V101US?hig...ht=JVC+streaks
    The above link describes exactly what I am seeing.
    That's exactly the same thing I see on many tapes and VCR's. The problem isn't exclusive to JVC. In fact I could show streak samples that are more severe and far more visible than the sample. The effects are due to a great many variables inherent in VHS, tape players, and the whole VHS record/playback chain. Sometimes the tape was recorded this way, sometimes it's due to variables associated with the differences between 4 playback heads, tape damage, tape media variations, and on and on. In most cases I've been able to eliminate or reduce the effects with a very few temporal filters, NeatVideo doing the best job I've seen. In some (not many) cases I've seen the effect reduced using line-level TBC's (depends on the TBC). My Toshiba DVD recorders used as pass-thru devices are the only time I've actually seen an improvement. JVC's built-in VCR TBC didn't help this particular problem, as far as I could tell. In some cases, I saw that particular TBC do little more than make the streaks more visible thru the TBC's associated image enhancement circuits.

    I could furnish samples of past video work. Like a real pack-rat, I save many of the original AVI recordings I've converted to DVD. That collection of "problem" VHS videos takes more than 250 discs on DVD and DVD-RAM. It would take a few days to get together some clips and to post captures of various effects, and right now time is a real premium -- thanks to my wife's Frankenstein home decoration fantasies and a misbegotten project of my own that's consuming my life for now. Later, I'll try to gather some samples.
    Last edited by sanlyn; 20th Mar 2014 at 15:54.
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  11. Member BrainStorm69's Avatar
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    I agree that to some extent, this is a problem with NTSC VHS and all VCRs in general. But, JVC VCRs do seem to exhibit the problem to a somewhat greater extent than some others. However, JVC VCRs also have some features (like DNR and TBC) that many VCRs do not. So it's a tradeoff, and a good reason to have more than 1 VCR available for your capturing needs. In fact maybe even more than 1 of the sasme brand. I own 3 JVCs (7600, 9500, and 9900). The picture quality of each is a little different, but they all exhibit this problem to a certain extent.
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  12. Originally Posted by BrainStorm69 View Post
    I agree that to some extent, this is a problem with NTSC VHS and all VCRs in general.
    That's my experience too.
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    Originally Posted by FreddieP View Post
    Originally Posted by BrainStorm69 View Post
    It may be that you are seeing what is one of two issues with the JVC VCRs. One is that they soften the picture a bit, which some people like and some don't. The other is this:

    https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/222061-Problem-2-color-bands-from-JVC-SR-V101US?hig...ht=JVC+streaks
    The above link describes exactly what I am seeing.
    Here are 2 captures of really bad streaks from very old aircraft documentaries on VHS I converted to DVD. I used NeatVideo in VirtualDub.
    Image
    [Attachment 2514 - Click to enlarge]

    Image
    [Attachment 2515 - Click to enlarge]


    Two more below.
    Last edited by sanlyn; 20th Mar 2014 at 15:55.
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    Two more caps from the same tape used above. There are pink and blue streaks in the first image. This demonstrates how NeatVideo can remove noise without asversely affecting the gradients at the top and bottom of the frame. The streaks are still there (a compromised between strong filter settings and maintaining detail), but in image 2 they're difficult to see.
    Image
    [Attachment 2518 - Click to enlarge]
    .
    Image
    [Attachment 2519 - Click to enlarge]
    Last edited by sanlyn; 20th Mar 2014 at 15:55.
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  15. Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
    Two more caps from the same tape used above. There are pink and blue streaks in the first image. This demonstrates how NeatVideo can remove noise without asversely affecting the gradients at the top and bottom of the frame. The streaks are still there (a compromised between strong filter settings and maintaining detail), but in image 2 they're difficult to see.
    How high was Neat Video's Temporal Filter Radius setting? I higher value may have reduced the streaks even more -- but may cause more posterization elsewhere.
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    That's chroma noise in the images two posts up.
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    Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
    Two more caps from the same tape used above. There are pink and blue streaks in the first image. This demonstrates how NeatVideo can remove noise without asversely affecting the gradients at the top and bottom of the frame. The streaks are still there (a compromised between strong filter settings and maintaining detail), but in image 2 they're difficult to see.
    How high was Neat Video's Temporal Filter Radius setting? I higher value may have reduced the streaks even more -- but may cause more posterization elsewhere.
    My notes say NV's temp filter was at 1 (NV will sample 3 frames total. At 2, NV samples 5 frames. And so on). I've sometimes used 2, but 3 was overkill. You also set the percentage that NV allocates to this filter - 30% here. I usually use 10-20%. I also dropped the other (spatial) filter power values about 25%. NV's temp filter seems more effective and cleaner than most, but with any filter scheme you have to compromise between the filter and the detail you want to keep. I did try to get it more pristine, but the image started getting that carved-soap look even though there was no movement in this segment.

    Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
    That's chroma noise in the images two posts up.
    Man, this tape was nothing but noise! I was surprised to get any coherent image at all. I must have spent 4 hours getting 2 minutes of video. It took forever to just find a frame that NV could use for a noise sample, I got one NV message after another about YUV channels being too corrupt to sample. I had to use a slightly less noisy segment some 15 minutes after these frames, then fiddle with NV's umpteen settings forever. Not that this video was all that important, I was just determined to find out more about what NV was doing. A fairly clean VHS tape isn't all that much of a learning experience.
    Last edited by sanlyn; 20th Mar 2014 at 15:56.
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  18. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    The tape's timing must have really been bad, judging from the oddities I see in the overscan.
    The original recording VCR/camera must have been pretty awful.
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    Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
    The tape's timing must have really been bad, judging from the oddities I see in the overscan.
    The original recording VCR/camera must have been pretty awful.
    My first VCR. A 2-head RCA, mono audio, $180 (that was good money in 1990!). And a bad cable line. Learned a lot, real fast. My next was a $650 SONY. I'd just turned it on and loaded a fresh tape about 20 seconds before CNN broke in with the start of bombing in Iraq in 1991. Thanks to NeatVideo, that tape's in my DVD collection now.
    Last edited by sanlyn; 20th Mar 2014 at 15:56.
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  20. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Funny you say that. I had a 2-head RCA mono VCR in 1990.
    It had very unique chroma noise.
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    ls, I shoulda kept the model number. I sure got my $180 worth and worked it to death until I upgraded. Considering the trouble all those tapes gave me the last few years, I'd say the RCA has been getting back at me ever since.
    Last edited by sanlyn; 20th Mar 2014 at 15:56.
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  22. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    I've known enough about video for long enough that I stopped using it after maybe 10-15 tapes. The errors were obvious from the start.

    It was relegated to play duty after that, never again did it record for me.

    Nothing that I recorded is unavailable in released format now, so that's good for me. I have retail DVDs.
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