driver for webcam that does NOT take in data through MJPEG?

[silph]

hey y'all! so after using videohelp.com for a few years, i'm finally needing to make a post of my own thanks for considering my post!

so, i bought two inexpensive webcams, but am (obviously) having problems doing what i want to do.

here's what i /want/ to do:
- record myself dancing, recording myself into a video file, preferrably compressing along the way since i don't have much hard disk space
- have what i'm recording show up in real-time on my PC's monitor, but the image flipped [so that it will feel like i'm dancing in front of a mirror]

the drivers that came with the webcams don't seem to work.


issue 1: no horizontal flip option in the driver i seem to have

i had windows XP SP2, and got windows to choose the best recommended driver for my webcam [ie control panel > device manager | select webcam and navigate to drivers menu, then get windows xp to suggest a driver] but:
` - the option to "horizontal flip" within the webcan properties under device manager is greyed out, and so too in virtual dub's "capture avi mode | video > capture pin..." menu option, or any simliar menu option in any other webcam software i've downloaded.

i upgraded to windows XP SP3, got it to suggest a driver (and it seemed to suggest a different one), but the dialogue box that the "capture pin..." or similar menu options gives looks exactly the same, as well as horizontal flip being off.

i had one webcam with SP2, and then i upgraded to SP3 and bought another webcam, but plugging in both gives the same behaviour as i explained above.



issue 2: can't use compression in viritual dub's "capture AVI..." mode, it seems because of MJPEG!

so, i was looking around for free software that i could use to capture video with a webcam, but the only one that didn't crash on my computer was virtualDub. i found out about using this functionality of virtualDub from this website: http://jaw.iinet.net.au/stuff/makevideo.html , and i'm basically trying to do what the webpage suggests doing. however, in the section on the webpage called "virtualdub - capture format", i'm having problems. it says:
===
Go to Video->Set Custom Format and choose the picture size. You will need to choose a format the webcam supports. I go for the highest resolution which on mine is 640x480. Leave the data format at the default Virtualdub has it set at. If you have chosen a format that the camera doesn't support Virtualdub will let you know.
===
but the only format that works is MJPEG. if i use any other format, virtualDub stops me, saying that it is not supported by my webcam.

if i try to go into "capture pin..." menu, there is a dropdown selector menu labelled "colour space / compression", but the only option available for me to choose is MJPEG.

if i go into "compression..." in virtualDub, i don't see a list of compression options like how it shows on the webpage. instead, all i see is:
===
(No recompression: MJPEG)
===






questions:
1) lol, do you folks have any ideas on how to achieve my goals?
2) is it a driver issue that MJPEG is the only option showing up in "capture pin..." or why no other colour space / compression option in virtualDub will work? or is it an issue with the webcam itself, and it's a matter of buying various webcams until one works?





i know i've been lengthy in typing ths, but i hope pretty clear and easy enough to read through it! thanks.

[titigrom]

Hi ! I'm trying something for you silph.

First of all, did you try the option with VirtualDub in capture device and "Microsoft WDM Image Capture (Win32) (VFW)" ?
If it works, then you can add a filter in "Video" Menu and "Filter Chain" ticked enabled. And in the "Filter list" "Add" and choose "flip horizontally". This works when you choose in Video "Format" and "RGB24" mode. Size for me is "720x576" for PAL, Webcams often "640x480".

Always in the Video Menu, I choose "Preview" and in the "Preview acceleration" "Interlaced - frame". Then you can choose your video compression but not the MJPEG codec of your webcam !

If you have something changed in right or wrong way, describe the symptoms we will try to find out a solution for you.

[silph]

hi titigrom, thanks for your thoughts!

i've tried your suggestions, but are having problems. i'll go through each of your suggestions and tell you what i am seeing.

==
First of all, did you try the option with VirtualDub in capture device and "Microsoft WDM Image Capture (Win32) (VFW)" ?
==
so once in 'Capture AVI' mode, if i look in the 'Device' menu, i do indeed see an option to select "0 Microsoft WDM Image Capture (Win32) (VFW)". but when i choose it, i get a big black square instead of a video that my webcam is picking up (ie which would appear if i instead selected "USB Video Device (DirectShow)" ).

==
Always in the Video Menu, I choose "Preview" and in the "Preview acceleration" "Interlaced - frame".
==
if, after selecting Device > "0 Microsoft WDM Image Capture (Win32) (VFW)", i then look at the options that 'Video' > 'Preview Acceleration' offers, i'm offered the following four options (none of which is "Interlaced - frame") :
1. Off
2. Even lines only
3. Odd lines only
4. Both fields

[note that the Video > Preview option is enabled with a checkmark beside it]
if '1.Off' is selected, i have the black square i mentioned before. if any of the other three options are selected, i instead get text displaying instead of the black square, and the text says: "VirtualDub cannot display the incoming video, as it is an unsupported format for display/analysis".


==
If it works, then you can add a filter in "Video" Menu and "Filter Chain" ticked enabled. And in the "Filter list" "Add" and choose "flip horizontally".
==
I don't have a Video > 'Filter Chain' option, but i do have a Video > 'Filters...' option.
if i go into it, i get what you see in the uploaded attachment.


===
This works when you choose in Video "Format" and "RGB24" mode.
===
when i go into Video > Format, the only option i have is MJPG! i have no other option to choose from in the dropdown list!!


what do you make of this...?

[silph]

oh! hold on! i lied a little in my first post -- i actually /didn't/ install the driver that came with the second webcam i bought.
i did do it now, and the "0 Microsoft WDM Image Capture (Win32) (VFW)" option DOES work for me, and i CAN choose something other than MJPG (actually, MJPG isn't even an option anymore), and i realized what you meant in how to "Add.." the flip horiztonal option in "Filters...", though it's not working in teh preview,

but i've made some progress.

after i fool around with the various options more, i'll tell you if i got it to work (or how close i got it to work!).

[jagabo]

I believe Logitech's capture module has a mirror function (it probably only works with Logitech cameras though). VirtualDub's filters will let you mirror but you don't see it on-screen, only in the captured file. VirtualDub doesn't support MJPEG capture. Switch the driver to YUY2, I420 or something like that. Video -> Capture Pin -> Colorspace/Compression. I've never seen a webcam deliver interlaced video.

[silph]

hi jagabo!

actually, in the post that you just replied to, i said that i was having luck with a new driver; with it, i could not select MJPG option in ViritualDub, but i /was/ able to select two options with names (i can't remmeber exactly) like RGB24 and YU[some other letter].

however, lol, my computer had even /more/ difficulty capturing video with RGB24 and YU[something] options -- i got a ridiculously low framerate! which is sad because the mirror option /did/ work!

so i rolled back my driver... to the one where MJPG is the only option.

===
VirtualDub doesn't support MJPEG capture.
===

ac-tu-ally, my copy of virtualDub seems to be doing so? it captures video from my webcame without any dropped frames, and MJPG is the only option that Capture Pin > Colour Space / Compression is giving to me!


==
I believe Logitech's capture module has a mirror function (it probably only works with Logitech cameras though).
==
what is a capture module? is it like a driver that i can try making work with my webcam?

[silph]

i've got to admit, i wish i knew why it was grayed out! if it wasn't, i'd be satisfied enough!

the attached screenshot is what i get when in Virtual Dub, then going into "File > Capture AVI..." mode; and then choosing "Video > Capture Pin...".

(note, "Video > Capture Filter..." has no horizontal flip option)



[to be clear, i rolled back to a system restore point made just before installing the newest driver (ie from the second webcam i bought) as i mentioend in the earlier post. that is, the attached picture is from the webcam driver that windows XP SP3 suggested and installed for me]



it's driving me a little bonkers, like it's mocking me or something, lol. i mean, the option is /provided/, but it's just that it's *grayed out*. can anyone explain why it is grayed out?

[jagabo]

ac-tu-ally, my copy of virtualDub seems to be doing so? it captures video from my webcame without any dropped frames, and MJPG is the only option that Capture Pin > Colour Space / Compression is giving to me!

Ah, I didn't have a MJPEG decoder installed. My camera had that capture option but VirtualDub just gave a black window when I selected it. I enabled ffdshow's VFW MJPEG decoder and got a picture.

what is a capture module? is it like a driver that i can try making work with my webcam?

Logitech ships with a lot of software. Part of it is a simple capture application. I only have the drivers installed right now but I'm pretty sure it has preview and record with a mirror image option.

[silph]

Logitech ships with a lot of software. Part of it is a simple capture application. I only have the drivers installed right now but I'm pretty sure it has preview and record with a mirror image option.

would i have to actually go out and buy a logitech camera? or do you know if they provide the software for free..?

----

update: i found a program called quickcam express on logitech's website for download. i'm installing it now, i wonder if it'll work with my webcam? i'll have to see!

update: aw, dangit! maybe i'm not surprised, but the software says my webcam is "incompatible" and refuses to detect it, lol.

[titigrom]

Hi silph ! I saw in your attachments that you're using an old version of VirtualDub that explains you doesn't have the same option as I. The last version is 1.9.9 since 10th April...

As jagabo said, you can install ffdshow. It has lots of DirectShow decoding filters and Video For Windows (VFW) codecs you can choose for compression in the VirtualDub Compression Menu (Compression>ffdshow video codec>Encoder "Tab" and MJPG, DV etc.)

[jagabo]

Regarding the grayed out horizontal flip option: when you capture using YUY2 or RGB the driver and capture program are receiving uncompressed video frames. It is easy to flip those images horizontally. But when capturing in MJPEG mode the video frames are compressed. It's much more difficult to modify compressed video. It has to be decompressed first. That's probably why the option is disabled when capturing MJPEG.

You should be able to get VirtualDub to capture YUY2 (or other YUV mode) or RGB and compress with a fast compression codec like HuffYUV and still maintain a 30 fps frame rate.

[silph]

jagabo, thanks again for the reply!

your explanation makes sense, in terms of compressed frames being difficult to capture. what confuses me is why does the windows xp driver which apparently *only* allows MJPG, then give an option for horizontal flip (and then gray it out)? i would think that if the only colour space / compression that a driver would allow is one that doesn't allow for horziontal flip, then they wouldn't even offer the option to begin with, lol!

i'll look at HuffYUV... gotta install that second driver again ['cause i rolled back to the win xp driver, heh]. thanks all of you for your continued ideas gives me hope that if i persisit maybe i'll find a solution!

[silph]

Hi silph ! I saw in your attachments that you're using an old version of VirtualDub that explains you doesn't have the same option as I. The last version is 1.9.9 since 10th April...

titigrom, i indeed am using an old version, aren't i? lol, mine is 1.6.17, which is a few numbers away from 1.9.9.

okay, i'll also try toying around with ffdshow and seeing if i can install it and if it can get me any closer to my goal. thanks for the idea!

[jagabo]

If you use ffdshow to decompress MJPEG from the camera -- it has filtering options that let you mirror the image before giving the decompressed video to VirtualDub, or any other capture program.

[jagabo]

your explanation makes sense, in terms of compressed frames being difficult to capture. what confuses me is why does the windows xp driver which apparently *only* allows MJPG, then give an option for horizontal flip (and then gray it out)? i would think that if the only colour space / compression that a driver would allow is one that doesn't allow for horziontal flip, then they wouldn't even offer the option to begin with, lol!

Things like that happen because the same software is used for different devices. Some have some options, others have others. But they use the same configuration dialogs. At least the option is grayed out so you don't try it and then wonder why it doesn't work. Or even worse, crashes the computer!

[silph]

jagabo said
==
At least the option is grayed out so you don't try it and then wonder why it doesn't work. Or even worse, crashes the computer!
==
indeed!

okay, so i think what you said makes sense -- the same windows xp driver might YUV or RGB for a different webcam, but for my two webcams, it doesn't (for some strange reason -- strange, because this other driver i got from buying my second webcam DOES allow both webcams to use YUV and RGB!).