Building a Low Power Desktop...with Laptop like power?

[Moontrash]

I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on building a low power desktop that had similar power specs to a laptop. Laptops tend to be very low wattage and are good on electricity and I wondered, "How low can I get a Desktop in terms of power?"

I may be moving shortly and have decided not to take my massive quad core machine(too bulky to carry in my little truck and I may have it shipped later on) and thought a laptop would keep me going for a while. When I get to where I'm going I thought I might need to keep bills low at the start but thought it's gonna be hard for me not to have a desktop around so why not try and build a low wattage/power desktop. The PC I'm on now has been running for the last 4 years and with my Voltage/Wattage meter it says it idles at 130 watts. I'm not sure what that means in terms of the cost it takes to run a month but maybe there's hardware out there that could do the job. This PC is just for surfing and downloading and nuthin more so the specs wouldn't have to be too high. This is a project I would like to try and keep quality at a reasonable level and costs low. I've even thought about those Mini ITX Computer Cases but am not sure about em cause I've not dealt with them.



any thoughts/ideas/suggestions would be appreciated.

thanx

[budz]

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811112265

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811112266

Those are Lian Li's new models for mini itx cases. It has much better cooling compared to last years model that I used for a mini itx system. Dunno what your budget is. Use one of those atom based cpu mobo combo's. AMD doesn't have many mini itx cpu/mobo combo's. Intel seems to have more available.

[Moontrash]

thanx for the reply budz. I'm not sure what my budget will be as I don't quite know what i'd be looking for in the Mini Case route. Not sure if there needs to be a special smaller power supply or smaller mobo/processor combo etc. If onboard graphics or a basic video card etc. I'm new to the smaller/budget builds. I could just go with a cheapo $30 case and low end Celeron or Sempron but don't know what they would be in terms of power efficiency over a small unit like a an atom processor build. Cost on an Celeron/Sempron type build would be a little cheaper i imagine but as a whole am not up to speed on the amount of power they use. That's why I'm fishing around for ideas on hardware, see if anyone has done the same thing etc.

[redwudz]

Electrical use is billed in Kilowatt hours. 130W for an hour is 0.13KWh. Times 24 hours, that would be 3.12KWhs.

If you look at your electric bill, it should show the KWh price. But, to make it simple, divide the total bill by your total KWhs. That would include taxes and other charges, but is more accurate for final costs. Off peak and on peak and over alloted usage will affect the actual costs.

My bill last month was $115 and I used 903KWh, resulting a average cost of $0.127 per KWh. Multiply that times your 24 hour usage and the average cost for your PC to operate would be about $0.40 per day here or about $11.89 a month. Remember, this is 24/7 operation. Not likely with most users. Where I lived previously the cost was closer to $0.30 per KWh, and that may be closer to your costs.

I checked a Mini HTPC I just finished building and it uses about 124W average. Next a Mini-ITX PC, and it uses about 54W. But it also has a fairly slow dual core Celeron CPU running at 1.2Ghz. Not really up to video processing. I read those power usages with a Kill-A-Watt power meter.

Newer computer power supplies are 80% or more efficient. The main power draws in a PC are also the main heat producers, the CPU, the Northbridge chip, the video card, the RAM and the drives, hard and optical. About the only way to improve the power usage is to use a lower wattage CPU, a lower wattage video card, and you may save a little bit with a 'green' hard drive. They typically run at 5400RPM to conserve power. Even with conservation there, you're not likely to get too close to a Mini-ITX PC. I suspect you may go from 130W down to maybe 75W if you carefully choose the components and power saving settings. Using $0.127 KWh, that would cost you about $6.87 a month at 24/7 operation.

You can also utilize the power saving programs built into most newer PCs. AMD uses 'Cool and Quiet' to lower power usage. Intel MBs have similar. Also set your display to sleep when not in use. Your motherboard may also have some energy saving features your can activate in BIOS. Most commonly, they lower the CPU multiplier to allow the PC to idle at lower speeds/temps, then return to full speed when needed.

And I didn't add in the power costs from external drives, or the display device. My 22" LCD monitor draws about 54W.

I'm not trying to dissuade you from looking into and possibly building a Mini-ITX or other low power PC, but you should realize that with a desktop PC it's unlikely you will ever come close to the average laptop in power economy. You need to offset the costs of a new, lower power PC with the reduced energy costs you may see in your electric bill. If you just surf the net and don't use the PC for CPU intensive tasks, a slower PC, such as a Mini-ITX may suit you.

[Moontrash]

The bill here is a monster but I can tell you that the rate is 10 cents a killowatt hour. I think it averages out to about $13 a month to keep running. I don't anticipate keeping this low power or "budget" one running 24/7 like this one. It's a miracle this one has lasted this long.

I first went the obvious route and tried the Celeron processor and unless I were to get the single core version, it has the same 65w power usage as the processor i got for my mother last year so I decided to wish list the processor , along with some other things. I could find no 5400 rpm green drives in the sizes i looked at(150gb-800gb)

AMD Athlon II X2 240 Regor 2.8GHz Socket AM3 65W Dual-Core

GIGABYTE GA-M68M-S2P AM3/AM2+/AM2 NVIDIA GeForcePNY OPTIMA 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400)

Sony Optiarc 24X DVD/CD Rewritable Drive Black SATA Model AD-7240S

Hanns·G HW-191APB Black 19" 5ms

Rosewill Case Fan (120mm)

MSI N94GT-MD512 GeForce 9400 GT 512MB 128-bit GDDR2

Antec Basiq BP430 430W Continuous

Seagate Barracuda 7200.12 ST3250318AS 250GB 7200 RPM

PNY OPTIMA 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400)

Price - Est. $420

Thoughts on these choices? This is about as cheap as I could piece it together this afternoon. Prices may get better over the next few months, hopefully. I may put Win 7 on it or just old reliable Xp..not sure yet. Time will tell.

[redwudz]

I think most of the 'green' drives are 500GB or more. I usually prefer WD or Samsung HDDs, but no real issue with Seagate.

I have a couple of Hanns-G monitors and I generally like them. Mine has a great contrast ratio, better than any of my other monitors.

I'd probably look into the GIGABYTE GA-MA78LM-S2H. About the same price, but a bit more modern.

With the newer on-board video, you don't really need a PCI video card. And if you do want to use one, a ATI one is usually a better choice with AMD/Gigabyte MBs as some versions can do crossfire and that will use both on-board and PCI ATI cards for some graphics boosts. (Though I don't think those MBs do.)

If you decide on W7 or Vista for a OS, it would be much better to have four GB RAM. XP is fine with two, Vista and W7 struggle with two. I would also look at DDR2 1066Mhz RAM. Usually about the same price, but better performance most times. But the RAM you listed does seem to be able to run at 1066Mhz with a BIOS adjustment. Hopefully, RAM prices will come down and there may be some bargains in the future.

I use Rosewill parts fairly often, but there are many better quality fans out there.

Everything else looks fine. If you're not in a hurry, just keep an eye out for sales.

[budz]

Gigabyte GA-MA785GM-US2H mobo, $79.99, onboard video ATI HD 4200 chipset
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128394

GSkill 2GB (2X1GB) DDR2-800 Ram, $58.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231098

Corsair 400 watt power supply, $49.99, after a MIR of $10.00 price is $39.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139008

WD Green 800gb Sata hard drive, $69.99 (This hard drive will be tomorrows Newegg shocker deal so the price will be lower.)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136517

Yate Loon 120mm fan from Petra's, $5.99
http://www.petrastechshop.com/12yalod1cafa1.html
Good fan on the inexpensive side and it does well with cooling.

Cooler Master R4 120mm fan, $9.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835103060
These fans are good as well.

Cooler Master Elite 360 micro atx case, $39.99 free shipping amazon.com
http://www.amazon.com/Cooler-Master-Elite-RC-360-KKN1-GP-Desktop/dp/B001TUYTZ2/ref=sr_...3724184&sr=1-6

Cooler Master Elite 310 case, $39.99 free shipping amazon.com
http://www.amazon.com/Cooler-Master-Window-RC-310-SWN1-GP-Silver/dp/B002XIST2I/ref=sr_...3724184&sr=1-8
I just used the CM Elite 310 case for my AMD build.

IMHO mini itx systems are a PITA. Not much room for cable management because the footprint is small. I built one last summer and sold it on my local craigslist for $360.00. Some mini itx systems the cpu cooler can be blocked because of the limited space. When I used a full atx power supply it hovered over the cpu cooler. Luckily I had a spare micro atx power supply to use. I've seen guys mod the mini itx cases to add more fans to it. That Lian Li link I provided is a ideal case because at least now it has a 120mm and 140mm fan. The Lian Li case I used had no fan holes.

As redwuz mentioned just keep a look out for sales at Newegg or even at Fry's Electronics. Newegg has their usual Tuesday and Thursday email specials.

[Moontrash]

Those Green Drives, do they kick down from 7200 to 5400 RPM's or do they chug along at a constant RPM? Have you heard or read about what their boot times are like? Are they noticeably slower or are there any drawbacks using a green drive as the primary HD? (noticed the 800gb newegg deal this morn ...)

I'm a dinosaur when it comes to monitors, I'm still using my 17" Viewsonic from 2001 lol. Nvr owned an LCD

BTW...I forgot to mention, I have a case here. Got an Antec 300 at frys last year for a closeout for $40. It's still in the box. If I didnt have a case now I'd go with a Cooler Master cause this old pc I'm on now is in a Cooler Mater Centurion 5 Case. Great ventilation and they're dead cheap.

Are onboard graphics pretty reliable? I've been building pc's for goin on 9 yrs now and have nvr used em. I just turn em off and use the Video Card. I've always been skeptical on their reliability but can honestly say, I've nvr tried em. It would definitely save me another $50.

Hopefully RAM will come down in price. I built my quad pc in feb 2009 and my mushkin RAM...4gb.. at that time was $47. Same stuff now is $110. Ridiculous. I've read that 2gb's for Win 7 is dead basic but if a better deal comes down the road I may lean towards four(there goes the $50 on savings w/o the video card ...)

I have spare 120mm fans lyin around here from cooler master, antec and apevia but I can't take a lot of parts with me as I dont have the room so I just went for the cheapest fan there was. I may try and cram one in my pc repair toolbox or just under the seat of the truck. I also have an extra Zalman fan speed controller lyin around. It helped quite a bit in my quad machine so I grabbed an xtra at frys for $6 a ways back.

The Gigabyte GA-MA785GM-US2H board and the Gskill RAM u mention budz (with the processor I chose)is the same setup I built for my mother LOL. Out the door it cost $350 w/o a monitor. I think back in October when I built it. Prices seem to still be the same it looks like. Prices seem to change everyday so I'm gna have to stay on top of it.

[dphirschler]

Check out the Aopen minis. I am using one right now and I love it. Mine is an MP965-D. 160GB hdd, slot-loading CD/DVD burner. 2GB ram, 4 USBs, Celeron M 550 @ 2 GHz. It's great for a media front-end machine too (connected to the TV).

http://usa.aopen.com/products_detail.aspx?Auno=2445

They are very much like a laptop. Both the optical drive and hdd are laptop compnents, the RAM and processor too. The power supply is an external power brick just as a laptop uses. The thing uses almost no power.

Darryl

[redwudz]

The 'green' drives normally only run at 5400 RPM. They will slow boot time a few tenths of a second, maybe. I wouldn't use one for a high bitrate capture drive, but for encoding, the CPU is much slower than the drives. For storage, no difference at all. The transfer rate between two green drives may be a bit slower, but if you want to save power, they are one option.

A bonus is they run cooler, use less power, and may have a better lifespan. With your proposed setup, you could start out with one as boot, then add a second, faster drive as finances permit and just clone the OS and drive over to the new drive and use it for boot. The PCs I assemble usually have three HDDs. I use a 150GB 10K RPM Raptor in my Intel PC for boot, and two 500GB HDDs for editing and archiving.

LCD displays aren't as flexible as CRTs, but they use a whole lot less energy and take up a lot less space. The downside is they only operate optimally at one resolution, the native one based on their screen size. With good contrast ratios, they can look better than many CRTs, IMO.

On-board graphics have improved quite a bit in the last year or two. Considering that many have on-board HDMI at 1920 X 1080 and can display HD Blu-ray video with no problems, they are well worth trying. They are often passable for gaming, unless you want cutting edge. Then you may want a +$200 video card or SLI and go to a full ATX MB. And with a Micro-ATX MB, you can always add a video card, but I doubt you will really need it for average PC use.

W7 will run on 2GB RAM, you may not have some of the 'eye candy' unless you add more RAM, but for encoding or playback, won't make much of any difference. But, be aware that the OS will use some of that RAM and the internal video chip some of it also. My W7 ATX PC is presently at idle and using about 824MB, though it has a lot of processes and programs on it. And it doesn't have on-board video. My Vista laptop is using 625MB as I type this.

[budz]

For a boot drive get a WD Black series hard drive or you can get that Seagate 250gb sata hd you posted. I have that Seagate sata 250gb hd on my parents pc. The Green drives are more suited to be used for storage. Yup, ram prices are very high at the moment and it doesn't seem likely they'll come down in price anytime soon. That same GSkill ram was once $35.00!

That built in video is good enough as long as you're not gaming on it. Then again if you get 4gb ram it would be better since we all know onboard video shares ram. I use a Gigabyte and XFX ATI HD 4350 video cards in my AMD Quad & Intel Quad pc's.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814150402

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814125251

[TBoneit]

I have to ask, Why not just get a cheap laptop for what you describe. I paid $329 + tax for the new cheapo laptop I bought last year around the time Win7 came out. It has win7 home prem. 3Gb, DVD Burner etc.
I only use it for Online banking, Bill paying, Income Tax and Online shopping at verified legitimate sites. I don't even surf the net with it. With all the Viruses, Identity Theft, and Bank accounts being cleaned out I see with customers, I'm a bit paranoid about financial safety. Worst I've seen so far was a customer got hit for $4500 from his bank account.

Surfing, and everything else gets done with may main Desktop i7-930 (Income Tax refund build).

Having said that the way to go is use laptop components.

LT = Laptop
Get a motherboard that can use a LT processor, LT hard drive, LT Optical drive. Those drives will use the least power. The LT CPU will be power efficient and so on.
I have seen cases that use LT Optical drives, Adapters for a laptop SATA to 3.5" bay and Motherboards that use LT Processors. Get a Intel dual core and you'll be much happier compared to the intel Atom line. Other option SSD drive.

I ran a LT hard drive for years in a DVR. It performed fine. It ran quiet, and the unit ran much cooler due to the drive running cooler and the lowered power supply load.

Green does not equal cheap to buy, only Cheap to run. BTW dimming the screen on a LCD will lower it's power usage. Or go LED back-light.

[Moontrash]

I have a cheaper laptop but I'm a desktop kinda guy. I've nvr been sold on laptops being a day to day, on 24/7 type of pc. The PC I'm on now is an Athlon 3000 with a Sapphire 1600 VC and its basically been on 24/7 the last 4 yrs. I doubt I could get that kinda reliability out of a laptop. I also doubt this cheapo laptop I have will be powered on for any extended length of time or even this Cheapo/Low Power PC I wanna build in the future anyhow. My brother has nvr owned a desktop and swears by laptops but I like to put the hardware I want in a pc so I stick with desktops. In the beginning all I'll probably have is wifi for net access in the area I should be going to so a desktop early on won't be feasable. I'll get by with the laptop temporarily.

The desktop I wanna build is for later on when I get settled. Maybe for some basic encoding and such but mainly for download/surfing etc...I also like to pound on keyboards and laptops aren't really built for my keyboard abuse issues LOL. For me, it's nvr the PC's fault or the "user's" fault, it's the damn keyboard's fault LOL

The micro pc cases are in and around the price range I was thinking about but are they made or can do 24/7 usage? I guess it comes back to my lack of faith in Laptops(now knowing they have mostly laptop hardware) or lack of knowledge about em. I've had a few LT hard drives as external storage and they didnt last too long. The "clicking" sound soon came upon them so i nvr really thought LT Hd's were a "long term" solution. It also could have been I just got a crappy brand, not sure really.

I certainly like the cheapo Gigabyte 4350 mentioned, great price and as a backup option to the onboard video. I'll give the onboard video a go and see what happens but for $30, can't be beat for the money.

I'm so use to my startup times being good that it's always been important lol. I'm guessing with processor I've mentioned , even with the green drives, the boot up will prolly be reasonable. This pc has an old WD ide 250gb 7200rpm and thats all. Have an esata drive I use between 2 pc's so storage is ok in that respect(external anyhow). This pc will just be for the basics and so far the prices are better than i thought for a joe average pc. I'm not sure about the power/wattage but so far the posts/comments have really steared me in the right direction.

I've kept track of certain stats on this quad core I have (a rarely used 4xcore) and noticed that the most RAM it's ever used was 2.1gb's...playing a game and highest wattage was 250 watts..also playing a game. In startup it sits on 700mb's (most process/services turned off). During boot up it hits around 940 mb's and no higher so I'm wondering with what little I'll do gaming/encoding etc if Win 7 will be ok on this low end/power pc? Sounds like it should be ok.

[redwudz]

If you haven't used W7, IMO, it's a vast improvement over XP. It is very stable and more crash resistant than XP. It also has a lot of energy saving programs built in, though I turn them off most times. When used, they can drop my 2.8Ghz CPU down as low as ~1Ghz when full power isn't needed.

Some Gigabyte/AMD/ATI Micro-ATX motherboards also have Crossfire-X where you can use a add-on video card to assist with video processing and it links to the internal video chipset. I do that with my HTPC. It has a on-board ATI HD 3200 chipset and I have a PCI ATI HD 3400 card hooked up as Crossfire-X. This boosts my video scores. Not needed for BD playback, but it does help for gaming. The video output still comes from the motherboard HDMI/Sub-D connector.

Probably the big improvement with a quad core is multitasking. It's fairly hard to overload it with running programs or processes. I use it mainly for converting BD>MKV where multiple cores can speed H.264 encoding.

[dphirschler]

I used to keep my old laptop on 24/7, but it eventually failed and overheated. Also the keyboard started giving me trouble. I got the PC repaired, but now the fans run full on all the time. I wouldn't recommend running a laptop all the time.

I have been running this mini 24/7 for about a month now. It's been fine, but I realize it is not long enough to give you a proven track record. But if it means anything, the fan is almost always barely audible. It seems to run very cool!


Darryl

[Moontrash]

Well I plugged in my voltage/watt meter to this pc and also my mothers pc(with the same MB, RAM and processor mentioned above in the possible new build) and my pc sitting here and at idle it stays at 130 watts...my mothers pc sits at 80 watts...I couldn't believe it. Thats even with a cheapo radeon 4650 card.

I use Win 7 on the quad core gaming/editing/encoding machine and it runs great. No issues. I've turned off all the power savings settings because that pc rarely stays on for more than a few hours a week, but at idle, it sits around 180 watts. (radeon 4870 card)

I nvr knew you could Crossfire with an onbaord video chip to a installed card. Thought it had to be 2 cards. Learn sumthin new every day.

I've only ever heard of 1 person I knew, online, that ran his laptop 24/7 and he seems to have been the lucky one, so far.

Well it looks like with the low wattage I saw today on a similar build, I'm convinced.

[jagabo]

My 2.4 GHz, dual core, Celeron E3200, always-on, file/media server (including monitor and UPS) gets down to about 55 watts at idle with the monitor sleeping. Awake at idle it's aroud 70 watts, 110 watts at full load. That's with 2 Samsung 1.5 TB green drives for files and an old 150 GB boot drive.

Keep in mind that electricity cost is often tiered. You pay a low rate for the first n kwhrs but the rate goes up the more you consume in a month. When you cut back on consumption you are cutting back from the highest tier you're in. We're saving ~$12 a month after switching from a 150 watt (at idle) quad core system to this 55 watt system. The quad core still gets used but it's only on a few hours a day now.

[budz]

I've only ever heard of 1 person I knew, online, that ran his laptop 24/7 and he seems to have been the lucky one, so far.

Well it looks like with the low wattage I saw today on a similar build, I'm convinced.

So you're getting a laptop!

[Moontrash]

My 2.4 GHz, dual core, Celeron E3200, always-on, file/media server (including monitor and UPS) gets down to about 55 watts at idle with the monitor sleeping. Awake at idle it's around 70 watts, 110 watts at full load. That's with 2 Samsung 1.5 TB green drives for files and an old 150 GB boot drive.

Keep in mind that electricity cost is often tiered. You pay a low rate for the first n kwhrs but the rate goes up the more you consume in a month. When you cut back on consumption you are cutting back from the highest tier you're in. We're saving ~$12 a month after switching from a 150 watt (at idle) quad core system to this 55 watt system. The quad core still gets used but it's only on a few hours a day now.

So if I turned the monitor completely off, would that be the same as putting it in sleep mode through Windows?

here's it 12 cents a kilowatt hour but after a certain amount used it goes down to 10. So I used about $13 a month for this old Athlon PC. The quad mainly stays off becasue I rarely need it. I use it to burn dvd's and encode with dvd rebuilder from time to time. It mainly got built to keep up to specs with gaming and hopefully a Blu Ray addiction that may come soon lol. Haven't been but a few games in the last year I thought were great so it just sits idle mostly. No Wattage to worry about. It also doubles as a heater for upstairs here. Damn it gets hot up here when its on.

So you're getting a laptop!

the ultimate in electric bill savings...buy a small solar panel and run it to a few car batteries lol

[usually_quiet]

I have a fairly low-power system like your Mom's. I only have on-board graphics from a 785G motherboard. It is fine for the usual, plus watching HD TV or DVDs, and working with MPEG-2 video. The on-board graphics are supposed to be adequate for playing Blu-Ray, but I have never tried it for that.

I bought this case. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811108100 It measures 14" x 7.5" x 16". While a case that size isn't as small as what you want, it wouldn't be as difficult to work on. In-Win makes a lot of small cases that are moderately priced and nicely finished.

[redwudz]

The LCD monitor I use, uses about 5W on sleep mode. About the same as a incandescent night light. Sure, could be lower if I turn it off. My electrical supplier has outfitted my home with a special watthour meter. On peak is a different price than off peak. Off peak is, as expected, not during the regular working hours. Summer time here the temps average well above 100F, so I run AC. My AC is a fairly new, very efficient heat pump type, so that's just a cost I have to live with. Otherwise, 120F+indoor temps. But if you set up your PC to use the energy savings built into most newer MBs, the daily cost is fairly low. Or you can just turn the entire system off during non-use periods.

Most newer PCs, even when 'off', idle at about 5W. That is for wake up in sleep or hibernate states. The PS supplies 5VDC to the MB at about 1Amp for wake from sleep modes. It does this if even if the PC is 'off' by the front panel switch.

Photovoltaics sound good, but there is a high initial cost and they have to be oriented properly for maximum output. The 'break even' cost benefit may be several years. Your neighbors or subdivision association may also not appreciate a structure attached to your roof to capture the most sun hours.

Some of this is just the 'cost of living a modern lifestyle'. If you want to 'unhook from the grid', then you probably need to radically change your lifestyle. I doubt that's what you have in mind, though. But with most any newer MB and accessories you should be able to minimize your monthly PC electrical operating costs if you use some of their energy saving settings.

[Moontrash]

that's good news then, I'll stick with the onboard and see what kind of life i can get out of it.

i think the most i could do is just turn the thing off lol. I only leave this old one on the grab stuff/seed etc...i doubt i'll be doing much of that in the future as things progress.

I know the first pc i bought from a company was a compaq back in 2000 or 2001 and it was in the "turn hd off when idle" state, after 18 months that drive died. I thought maybe it was just a bad drive cause i nvr left that pc on but i had another wd 80gb drive do the same after about 2 yrs so since then i either leave the pc off or leave it running with no power savings settings. I figured with things stopping and starting all the time would wear it out. This pc proved me right, being thats its been running for 4 yrs lol. No idle or sleep has ever ran on it. I wish SSD drives would last as long as a spinning drive and weren't as damn expensive. Solve those problems pretty quickly.

yeah the solar deal is not cost effective. It's more for the cool factor or if your really into changing the way u live. I thought it would be sumthin to just get a smallish solar panel and use it with a car battery and run stuff from it. Lower wattage things. I added up the savings and there were none lol. Things that use that panel/battery setup don't tend to use much electricity anyhow so i thought, "maybe be a fun project in the future, but now...nah"

This vid shows pretty much what i was thinking..(slow load time)

http://www.vidoemo.com/yvideo.php?i=YTFmN1ZscWuRpWGo2bnc&macbook-solar-powered-laptop-system

[redwudz]

That Chicago brand inverter in the video is fairly low quality and not too efficient. Better would be to use a 24VDC solar array and two 12VDC batteries in series to output 24VDC, then a voltage regulator to drop the voltage to the laptop input voltage, usually about 15VDC - 20VDC. An AC wattmeter will only show the power used to charge the internal laptop battery and doesn't take into account the losses through the power brick. But most laptops use about 45 Watts in operation, the higher end ones with a better video output, a bit more. 45W at 18.5VDC would be about 2.5 Amps. Obviously, the batteries could be much smaller than the one in the video, unless you have other devices that need to run off it.

I have friends that run their entire houses off a solar cell/battery array, including 12VDC lighting and some small appliances and a TV and computer. They also have a back up generator they use at times. They use a solar array for water heating, with solar water panels. They also have wood heat. No air conditioning, though. They don't live in Arizona with 115F summers.

A ~100W 24VDC solar array would be about $600 - $1000 and be about 30" X 60". Then you have the cost of the two lead-acid batteries, about $60 each, unless you get the preferred deep cycle batteries, which would probably be double that. Deep cycle batteries can survive a complete discharge without damage. A regular lead-acid battery will be damaged and a few of those total discharges will kill them permanently. The ~100W voltage regulator would be easy enough to design and build, the parts probably less than $50.


Just speculation, though. Most of us don't want to change their lifestyles that much.

[jagabo]

A ~100W 24VDC solar array would be about $600 - $1000

At 10 cents a kilowatt hour it will take a 75 watt computer about 15 years to pay for a $1000 solar array. Not a good investment.

[RabidDog]

Rather than solving your problem by increasing your consumption (e.g. buying more things) why not scrounge up/borrow/freecycle an older computer. As jagabo states any new investment has a very long payback time.. probably longer than the kit will be in use.
0.10$ sounds like cheap power. It s fun to put together a low power computer, but it almost certainly will not pay for itself in power savings, especially if its not replacing something running 24/7.
Got to Admit I like the idea of NAS storage, but cheap atom puters are not that much more expensive/power hungry/Noisy.

Incidentally another power saving tip you never hear turn down the sound on your TV/Hifi

[usually_quiet]

Rather than solving your problem by increasing your consumption (e.g. buying more things) why not scrounge up/borrow/freecycle an older computer. As jagabo states any new investment has a very long payback time.. probably longer than the kit will be in use.
0.10$ sounds like cheap power. It s fun to put together a low power computer, but it almost certainly will not pay for itself in power savings, especially if its not replacing something running 24/7.
Got to Admit I like the idea of NAS storage, but cheap atom puters are not that much more expensive/power hungry/Noisy.

Incidentally another power saving tip you never hear turn down the sound on your TV/Hifi

A relatively new refurbished computer would be easier to find. If someone is giving away a five-year old computer, maybe it can be upgraded for $100-$150 (new HDD, more memory, maybe a new PSU) to the point of being useful for the basics again and less likely to die. (I just did that sort of upgrade for my sister's 3.2 GHz P4.) The problem is that many people don't give away a computer until it is hopeless.

...but people who build their computer aren't doing it primarily to save the planet, that is secondary at best.

[Webster]

This is a project I would like to try and keep quality at a reasonable level and costs low. I've even thought about those Mini ITX Computer Cases but am not sure about em cause I've not dealt with them.


[Attachment 1813 - Click to enlarge]

any thoughts/ideas/suggestions would be appreciated.

thanx

For what it worth, I’d just put together a mini system using these parts for an HTPC:
AMD Athlon II X2 240 Regor 2.8GHz 2 x 1MB L2 Cache Socket AM3 65W Dual-Core Processor
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103688
ZOTAC GF6100-E-E AM3/AM2+/AM2 NVIDIA nForce 430 MCP Mini ITX AMD Motherboard
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813500045
SILVERSTONE Sugo SG05-B Black SECC / Plastic Mini-ITX Desktop Computer Case SFX 300W 80Plus Power Supply ***good mini case with plenty clearance for CPU cooler if you want to use stock cooler. Most other ITX cases will not have enough clearance between the CPU cooler and the power supply. If you get those cases, you will end up spending about another $20.00 or more for a low profile cooler.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811163149&cm_re=silverstone_case...-149-_-Product
Western Digital Caviar Green WD5000AADS 500GB 32MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5" Hard Drive -Bare Drive
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136358
some leftover RAM from my drawer:
CORSAIR XMS2 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model TWIN2X4096-6400C5
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820145184

Using KillaWatt to measure power usage. Total power usage at full drive spinning, 100% CPU load at stock speed is at 84-90 watt total. System at idle is at 63-65 watts total. I can lower the total watts usage by lower the core CPU voltage to 1.1V then the system idle at 60 watts.
I could have lower the power futher if I was using single core AMD Sempron 140 Sargas 2.7GHz 1MB L2 Cache Socket AM3 45W Single-Core Processor
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103698
I’ll get this chip soon to check and see how much less power will this system need. I wanted to eventually run the computer fulltime using a power inverter with 4 x 12volts battery bank which is charges by solar panel.

@redwudz
You can get solar panel much cheaper that that these days. Check out this site.
http://www.sunelec.com

[Moontrash]

I got to reading around and started coming upon lots of DIY solar stuff and these videos are pretty interesting. I added most of it up but it was not worth a total lifestyle change for sure(money wise). I honestly have no clue on how or what hardware could be used to run a laptop or a small appliance, solar wise. I thought that car battery in the vid was the right size but you mention that its too big and could get away with a smaller one. I need a link to a place online that would give me an idea what hardware could be used to accomplish these little solar projects. I've actually seen those Chicago Electric inverters before but nvr realized they could be married to a solar thought. And the panel in that vid, from what i've read only needs to be between 20 and 32 watts to run a laptop. I guess going with a bigger one could accomplish more utilities/appliances to be used. I'd sure like a easy/fun solar projects 101 on the basics.

The only old pc i have access to thats not this old athlon i use(which is dying btw) is an old compaq from 2001...pentium III 866. I used it up until last year to burn all my dvd's(4x). I'd say a solid 4 or 5 yrs. It runs fine but it's dead slow and I need a little speed to process some basic video. That little P3 won't cut it. I agree with usually_quiet, most people just won't let those pc's go, regardless of how old or slow they are. Considering I was, and still am, using about $13 a month for this one running, spending around $300 for another one to last 4 or 5 more yrs I think is good way to go. I stay updated on speed and it's most defiantly more power efficient than this 5 yr old athlon processor i have. The first half of the elec. bill goes to 12 cents then when it goes beyond a point it drops to 10...the problem is that where I live here in Texas everyone's bill lately has doubled since last year but still using the same stuff/amount of electricity. TXU says they havent raised the rates but are using sumthin called "averaging". Highest electric bill in this house in 20 yrs was xmas 2008...$280...This xmas it jumped to $555. Almost had a heart attack. Went to all the neighbors and theres to is thru the roof(this house's bill being the cheapest on the block). Can't seem to get anywhere with TXU. Sumthin's up.

At 10 cents a kilowatt hour it will take a 75 watt computer about 15 years to pay for a $1000 solar array. Not a good investment.

totally agree

I wanted to eventually run the computer fulltime using a power inverter with 4 x 12volts battery bank which is charges by solar panel.

Wish I knew how to do that stuff lol. Would be a fun learning experience.

That's a very similar setup to what I wanna try Webster except the RAM...only 2 gb's for the time being. Actually may wish list that 500gb green drive u mention.

[redwudz]

You can use a smaller photovoltiac panel as a 'trickle' charger to keep the batteries charged. The panel doesn't run the appliance or PC directly in that case. As long as the devices aren't on 24/7, the panel can keep the battery up. The ~$600 - $1000 photovoltiac I mentioned is a high quality unit with a lifespan of many years. It does put out enough energy to directly run a PC, about 170W. You can certainly get much cheaper ones, but make sure they have a decent warranty and will supply as much power as you need for the batteries.

If you get an inverter, get a good one with a high efficiency rating so you aren't wasting too much power in the conversion. The highest voltage used in a PC is 12VDC, so optimal would be a power supply that regulated the 12VDC and supplied the lower voltages such as 5VDC + and - and the 3VDC and lower voltages for the RAM and CPU directly from the batteries 12VDC.

Not that I'm a big fan of ITX setups, but some will run off 12VDC directly. The one I have is used in cars on the west coast for on-board computing for multimedia displays and it will operate from 12VDC. But I don't know how they handle the power for the LCD monitors.

[Webster]

Kyocera, BP, Evergreen are considered high end solar panel makers. Cheapest price are currently ranging from $2.15-$3.00 per watt (I bought mine when they are $5-6.00/watt a few years ago. Prices has been dropped a lots in the past couple years) Stay away from panels from Northern tools, Newegg kits. Those panels are made in China and are junks. You will need a decent charge controller to prevent your battery from overcharge. You'll need a battery bank and an inverter to convert DC to AC for the computer.
I would never run a computer directly from the panel itself. Since you need to do a DC regulation to make constant voltage at 12V DC (panel does not output constant 12V) Also, if you are running the computer using power output from a solar panel, if a cloud went by, and the panel does not give out enough amp/voltage, your computer will crash.