FCC allows blocking of set-top box outputs

[joepic]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100507/ap_on_hi_te/us_tec_fcc_movie_recordings#mwpphu-container

WASHINGTON – Federal regulators are endorsing Hollywood's efforts to let cable and satellite TV companies turn off output connections on the back of set-top boxes to prevent illegal copying of movies.


The decision by the Federal Communications Commission, announced late Friday, is intended to encourage studios to make movies available for home viewing on demand soon after they hit theaters or even at the same time.


Bob Pisano, head of the Motion Picture Association of America, said the FCC's action will give consumers "far greater access to see recent high-definition movies in their homes."


But critics warned that the FCC order could prevent 20 million Americans with older, analog TVs from seeing these new-release movies at all. That's because the order allows the studios to limit delivery of new movies to only those households with newer digital sets.


In addition, critics say the blocking technology could prohibit legal recordings on some video recorders and other devices with analog connections.


"We are unsure when the FCC has ever before given private entities the right to disable consumers' products in their homes," the Consumer Electronics Association said in a statement. "The fact that the motion picture studios want to create a new business model does not mean that functioning products should be disabled by them."


Public Knowledge, a public interest group, said the FCC "has succumbed to the special-interest pleadings of the big media companies."


The FCC prohibits the use of so-called "selectable output control" technology, which encodes video programming with a signal to remotely disable set-top box output connections. The FCC granted a waiver from those rules on Friday at the request of the MPAA.


Allowing movie studios to temporarily prevent recording from TVs could pave the way for movies to be released to homes sooner than they are today. The FCC said the waiver is therefore in the public interest, because the studios are unlikely to offer new movies so soon after their theatrical release without such controls.


Companies such as The Walt Disney Co. have been trying to shorten the time between theatrical and home video releases, partly to benefit from one round of marketing buzz and partly to head off piracy. With DVD sales declining, studios are looking for new ways to deliver their content securely while still making money.


In its decision Friday, the agency stressed that its waiver includes several important conditions, including limits on how long studios can use the blocking technology. The FCC said the technology cannot be used on a particular movie once it is out on DVD or Blu-Ray, or after 90 days from the time it is first used on that movie, whichever comes first.

[MOVIEGEEK]

Companies such as The Walt Disney Co. have been trying to shorten the time between theatrical and home video releases, partly to benefit from one round of marketing buzz and partly to head off piracy. With DVD sales declining, studios are looking for new ways to deliver their content securely while still making money.

I've been saying this for years, just release the movie on VOD/DVD/BD/theater day and date. I prefer to watch a movie at home on my HT.

As for analog being cut off: it was only a matter of time. DVD and Blu-ray players will have their analog video limited to 480p(576 PAL)after 12/31/10, all analog will be turned off on machines made after 12/31/2013.
http://www.audioholics.com/news/industry-news/aacs-hdmi-kill-component-2010

[Seeker47]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100507/ap_on_hi_te/us_tec_fcc_movie_recordings#mwpphu-container

WASHINGTON – Federal regulators are endorsing Hollywood's efforts to let cable and satellite TV companies turn off output connections on the back of set-top boxes to prevent illegal copying of movies.

Please clarify this for me: they (the sat / cable companies) have the ability to turn these outputs off remotely, via some kind of signal, as opposed to doing this in the design of later rev.s of the hardware boxes ? If so, that is going to undermine the whole basis of a 2-year provider commitment I'm about to enter into, which I might have scrubbed had I known about this sooner.

It's not a piracy thing. I tend to watch things once, and then dispose of them / free up the space / whatever -- which is what we are paying for with our service subscription in the first place. It's just that I've invested substantially in my own good hardware and prefer to control my own timeshifting, not leave it up to their control.

[DarrellS]

Soon, Hollywood will control the world. They already control the United States Government.

Bob Pisano, head of the Motion Picture Association of America, said the FCC's action will give consumers "far greater access to see recent high-definition movies in their homes."

Everything the government does is for our own good. We the people are just too stupid to realise that all these rich bastards have our welfare in their best interests.

[MOVIEGEEK]

Please clarify this for me: they (the sat / cable companies) have the ability to turn these outputs off remotely, via some kind of signal, as opposed to doing this in the design of later rev.s of the hardware boxes ? If so, that is going to undermine the whole basis of a 2-year provider commitment I'm about to enter into, which I might have scrubbed had I known about this sooner.

It's very easy for the provider to do, they will just send a signal to turn it off. Cable companies are able to do this through the coax, satellite companies can do it through the phone line connected to the box. They can also do this by having a mandatory box swap on old boxes, the new boxes won't have analog out. Since you rent the box they can do what they want with their equipment, I'm not saying this is right though.

Cable companies did(and still do) a similar thing to battle "black boxes", they send a signal to block their use.

[Seeker47]

Please clarify this for me: they (the sat / cable companies) have the ability to turn these outputs off remotely, via some kind of signal, as opposed to doing this in the design of later rev.s of the hardware boxes ? If so, that is going to undermine the whole basis of a 2-year provider commitment I'm about to enter into, which I might have scrubbed had I known about this sooner.

It's very easy for the provider to do, they will just send a signal to turn it off. Cable companies are able to do this through the coax, satellite companies can do it through the phone line connected to the box. They can also do this by having a mandatory box swap on old boxes, the new boxes won't have analog out. Since you rent the box they can do what they want with their equipment, I'm not saying this is right though.

Cable companies did(and still do) a similar thing to battle "black boxes", they send a signal to block their use.

Well, in my past experience (TWC in two different regions, DirecTV in another) they made no effort to do this. But, with this new ruling, I guess it may be a whole new ballgame.

If they choose to force the issue, there is a cure for this. It involves the internet, and I can't talk about it here. I've gotten pretty good at it, out of necessity. (Due to technical factors outside my control, not the economic downturn, not a financially based decision, because I was entirely willing to continue paying their service fees, as I have done for many years.) It's less convenient, but I now have "proof of concept." If these companies want to push more customers in that direction, they may find this move to be backfiring on them.

[yoda313]

So does this mean they are going to be able to disable the component analog output from the hd dvr I have with comcast (motorola model)?

That is what I use for backups to my hddvr from hauppauge.

Or I should correct that to say it will downscale not outright lockdown?

Would there still be a benefit to recording that way if indeed they do lower the res instead of a full lockdown? I have to imagine that downscaled video off component would still look better than interlaced video off composite. Not to mention the benefit of widescreen capturing you can get with the hd pvr.

[edDV]

They will inhibit high def output over analog component. 704x480 only. Composite and S-Video will not be affected.

[yoda313]

They will inhibit high def output over analog component. 704x480 only. Composite and S-Video will not be affected.

Thanks.

Will it still be progressive and "true" widescreen though?

[edDV]

They will inhibit high def output over analog component. 704x480 only. Composite and S-Video will not be affected.

Thanks.

Will it still be progressive and "true" widescreen though?

You would need to make the settings. If you had it set 1080i, it may change to 480i.

Try it now 480p - 16:9.

[DarrellS]

I was going to buy myself the Hauppauge HD-PVR for my birthday so I can record from the HD-Cable box but this kills that idea. No need to waste $200 if all I can capture is SD. I can do that already with my Hauppauge 1800 and that only cost me $59 after rebate.

That's one reason why I was hesitant in buying the HD-PVR besides the price. I knew the government would kill it as soon as I bought it.

[yoda313]

Well it seems like the point of the article was for new release movies.

Would that mean regular channels would not be affected? Just vod and premium channels? If so then it would not be so bad.

@ darrells - do you have a ps3 or xbox 360? If so then you may still want to consider a hdpvr. They work great for game captures. Not to mention realtime h264 encoding from bluray over component (but no dts encoding unfortunately, works great on dolby digital though).

[edDV]

I was going to buy myself the Hauppauge HD-PVR for my birthday so I can record from the HD-Cable box but this kills that idea. No need to waste $200 if all I can capture is SD. I can do that already with my Hauppauge 1800 and that only cost me $59 after rebate.

That's one reason why I was hesitant in buying the HD-PVR besides the price. I knew the government would kill it as soon as I bought it.

If I read the above FCC position correctly, this will only affect certain early release pay per view movies that haven't been released on DVD. It also looks like they may disable SD analog recording as well until the DVD is released.

Still, the cable companies will separately try to limit distribution of HD cable boxes with analog component outputs. I'm going to keep my non HDMI "HD Ready" TV to force the issue with them.

Separate from the above, cable/sat companies can control analog component outputs to inhibit HD on a program by program basis as can broadcasters. So far they aren't doing this. If they did, many early HDTV sets wouldn't hot switch standards properly.

[jagabo]

Ars Technica has a much better article about this:

http://arstechnica.com/telecom/news/2010/05/fcc-gives-hollywood-control-over-your-home-theater.ars

In theory, the analog blocking is only for "new services", not existing services. I was worried that studios would start delaying the delay of DVDs and Blu-ray discs indefinitely while they sucked money out of those stupid enough to purchase the new pay per view rentals. But the FCC has limited the amount of time to 90 days after the first blocking of a particular title, or until it's release on disc, whichever comes first.

So in a worst case scenario release on disc would only be delayed by 90 days. Unless, of course, they find ways around this limitation. I don't know if the 90 days after first use applies to the movie or the service. For example, could they define the initial release as a premium $9.95 pay-per-view service. After 90 days they could call it a standard $7.95 pay-per-view release, and claim that's a different new service. Another 90 days later call it a bargain $4.95 pay-per-view release, then a bargain basement $2.95 release, a premium $19.95/mo subscription release, a standard $9.95/mo subscription release... until finally, five or ten years later, it's released on disc?

Or maybe they could have an initial standard theatrical release. After 90 days have an extended edition release and claim that's a "new" release. Then a director's cut release, a director's cut with commentary, a super extended cut with out-takes, an edited release for the religious right, a PG-13 release for the kids...

[Seeker47]

Ars Technica has a much better article about this:

http://arstechnica.com/telecom/news/2010/05/fcc-gives-hollywood-control-over-your-home-theater.ars

from the article:
"For example, MPAA points out that unauthorized copies of television shows are online so quickly that copies that air on the East Coast are available before they air on the West Coast. Furthermore, a pay-per-view boxing event was broadcast online without authorization simultaneously with its airing on pay-per-view. MPAA argues that if the Video-on-Demand ('VoD') release window is moved earlier, illegal copiers will focus on the earlier VoD release."

What sort of odds would you give that their SOC victory is going to significantly impact this ?

[edDV]

Cinema theater owners are not pleased with this ruling. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/18/business/media/18movies.html?ref=technology

[NICEBUD]

The answer is so simple.When those greedy motherf***kers start all that telling you what you can and carnt do in your home.All you do is CANCEL THAT GREEDY SERVICE.

[yoda313]

The answer is so simple.When those greedy motherf***kers start all that telling you what you can and carnt do in your home.All you do is CANCEL THAT GREEDY SERVICE.

Thats a nice sentiment but I think this ruling is intended to be industry wide. That means you'd only be left with free ota service.

[Seeker47]

Cinema theater owners are not pleased with this ruling. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/18/business/media/18movies.html?ref=technology

Interesting. Some pushback from an unexpected direction. (Or at least one that did not occur to me immediately.) I don't know that this reaction would affect anything other than first-run movies, whereas there is major suspicion that this is just the leading edge of an effort to gain total control over the consumers' options. That is, the Big Media cabal won't stop with first-release on-demand movies, but will follow this up by gradually invalidating a lot of your HT hardware investment. (Assuming that you already had some ability to make use of those outbound ports.)

Might not this put Tivo out of business, to give one example ? But I think the consumer electronics mfr.s will not have much clout on this, and maybe not the theater owners either.

[yoda313]

Might not this put Tivo out of business, to give one example ?

Probably more likely that will force tivo to pay some exorbonate fee to the cable/sat companies. They can already use cable cards and such on the hd model. It might be that they'd exert more control on what the tivo could do since its not hardware owned by cable/sat/fios.

I seriously doubt any export of the actual files on the tivo would be allowed to continue if you can still do so on unhacked tivos (I know the tivo series 2 analog models had the tivo 2 go software where you could copy the actual file to the computer).

[usually_quiet]

Even before the new FCC ruling, some premium movie channels had copy protection applied that would prevent a TiVo from recording them under ordinary circumstances, so I doubt that TiVo's bottom line will suffer much from this decision.

TiVo makes more money off their service fees than they do from the hardware sales, and they seem to be exploring new business opportunities with paid TV service providers to sell TiVo service. My cable provider already has a deal with them. In selected areas of the country, customers can order HD DVRs that use TiVo's service. http://www.comcast.com/tivo/

[Seeker47]

Even before the new FCC ruling, some premium movie channels had copy protection applied that would prevent a TiVo from recording them under ordinary circumstances

But the providers own DVR hardware can record all of these things, so obviously there is a hardware or software "passkey" of some kind.

[usually_quiet]

Even before the new FCC ruling, some premium movie channels had copy protection applied that would prevent a TiVo from recording them under ordinary circumstances

But the providers own DVR hardware can record all of these things, so obviously there is a hardware or software "passkey" of some kind.

I don't believe that is accurate. The cable TV providers' own DVRs aren't supposed to record anything marked CGMS-A "copy never" either. They may record enough to provide a buffer for pausing and rewinding, but they won't allow a permanent recording to be made and kept on the DVR indefinitely.

[jagabo]

HBO is already deleting recordings from TIVO boxes.
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13846_3-9919829-62.html
http://consumerist.com/2008/03/hbo-using-tivos-macrovision-drm-to-restrict-john-adams-...iniseries.html

[txporter]

HBO is already deleting recordings from TIVO boxes.
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13846_3-9919829-62.html
http://consumerist.com/2008/03/hbo-using-tivos-macrovision-drm-to-restrict-john-adams-...iniseries.html

This is similar to what happens with rented content from Amazon on Tivo. I don't subscribe to HBO, so this particular issue doesn't really affect me. Since HBO isn't public broadcast, aren't they free to allow/not allow recording/distribution of their content? Is there really anything that can be done other than complain about it and hope they change?

[dvdsham]

HA! This is funny. I work in technology and they won't be able to prevent the very types of people that have electronic engineering or just the experience in electronics. I was one of those people back in the VHS Macrovision days that discovered how to by-pass the copy protection flags on VHS TAPES just by changing the value of a resistor and a capacitor on the AGC circuit.

Fine, let the MPPA take control and let them shut off the composite and other HDMI outputs, I only wonder what makes them think that the coaxial output cannot be turned into an HDMI processor...after all they are already exist inside new HDTV'S. What makes the MPAA think that a converter won't be built and put on the market? I say let them do it. I will laugh at the MPAA!

[sum_guy]

Some Solutions = simple, for some methods i.e. rent it on Amazon, use WM Capture. Convert to whatever format you want. For streaming online content, not much of a problem, for stuff coming thru the cable/sat box, there will be a work around, if you wait long enough, unless the next new hot format comes down the lane.

[Seeker47]

HA! This is funny. I work in technology and they won't be able to prevent the very types of people that have electronic engineering or just the experience in electronics. I was one of those people back in the VHS Macrovision days that discovered how to by-pass the copy protection flags on VHS TAPES just by changing the value of a resistor and a capacitor on the AGC circuit.

Fine, let the MPPA take control and let them shut off the composite and other HDMI outputs, I only wonder what makes them think that the coaxial output cannot be turned into an HDMI processor...after all they are already exist inside new HDTV'S. What makes the MPAA think that a converter won't be built and put on the market? I say let them do it. I will laugh at the MPAA!

You are likely correct, in time if not already. But it may be a reality even now. If you read through the User Comments on the Ars Technica article (post # 14 above), you will find references to two gizmos. One is inexpensive and there were a few tech opinions expressed that it would not really do the job. The other one costs around $350. -- putting it into the used TBC-1000 price range, so this is not a solution for those on a tight budget, but maybe just for those who have a major investment in HT -- which was described as a solution that would work.

Although I might not be deterred by the price, it seems like this one would do nothing to solve the issue I would be concerned about first: not having my Pio DVDRs (still working fine, and which I still like and rely on a lot) become useless doorstops. As with nearly all legacy gear, the best signal input you can feed these is S-Video, and the gizmo I'm referring to does not support that. The only standalone DVDRs (HDD & burner) I recall having component INs were that first Polaroid model and maybe a couple of the early Lite-On units. Even though it is just standard def, I wouldn't want to give up this capability from my setup. You can't edit squat on your cable or sat supplied DVRs, and of course you can't export anything -- even if it does not vanish off of their HDDs after a few days.

[dvdsham]

Another method that does work like a charm...you could always remove the screws from the PVR and remove the hard drive and place it into a computer or USB external box and copy the files over to your computer hard drive. I have a Motorola PVR from Bell and it has copy protection (NOT MACROVISION) so instead of messing around with this type of protection, I just pop the Hard Drive out. The files are encoded in MPEG 2. Other PVR's may use a different encoding format so all you would have to do is just find a converter on the net.

[Supreme2k]

remove the hard drive and place it into a computer or USB external box and copy the files over to your computer hard drive.

For most boxes, this won't work. The files are encrypted and keyed only to that box. Your PC won't even see the drive because it's a different OS/Firmware.