Samsung VP-MX20 and interlaced H.264 / Pinnacle Studio

[agallo70]

For several years I used a Canon MiniDV and edited it with Pinnacle Studio but then few months ago it "died" and it was not worth repairing it so I bought a new one. Unfortunately I selected a Samsung VP-MX20. It stores on SD/MMC in MP4 format and the video itself is H.264 widescreen interlaced PAL.

The problem is with Pinnacle Studio, both v12 and v14. The video is seen as standard 4:3 instead of widescreen 16:9 and moreover it is threated as PROGRESSIVE instead of INTERLACED. As I then master onto a DVD in MPEG2, Pinnacle is reading the interlaced file as progressive and computing interlaced output out of it.

I let you imagine the ugly output I get.

The only solution is to apply a de-interlacing filter in Studio before generating the MPEG2 PAL format. But I see it is not as good as the original video that I get by connecting the camcorder to the TV directly via the Video Out cable. I feel the problem is due to the de-interlace and interlace passes.

I am copying here below the output from MediaInfo for one sample file.

Is this wrong management of the interlaced/progressive setting due to a wrong flag in the MP4 header file itself?

From Media Info, I see the file is 5:4 instead of 16:9 but it is PAL. Is then Studio wrongly wrongly managing the file or some wrong flag somewhere else?

Is there any way I can overwrite the MP4 header of the file and mark it as widescreen interlaced? In case, I could use the FFMPEG parser and study it and overwrite the corresponding flag. Can this be a solution?

Many thanks in advance!

Andrea Gallo, Mr

General
Complete name : D:\Documenti\Video\2010\04 0417acquario\SDV_0441.MP4
Format : MPEG-4
Format profile : JVT
Codec ID : avc1
File size : 13.1 MiB
Duration : 12s 360ms
Overall bit rate : 8 891 Kbps
Encoded date : UTC 2003-01-31 16:06:00
Tagged date : UTC 2003-01-31 16:06:00

Video
ID : 1
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Codec ID : avc1
Codec ID/Info : Advanced Video Coding
Duration : 12s 360ms
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 8 704 Kbps
Width : 720 pixels
Height : 576 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 5:4
Frame rate mode : Constant
Frame rate : 25.000 fps
Standard : PAL
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.840
Stream size : 12.8 MiB (98%)
Language : English
Encoded date : UTC 2003-01-31 16:06:00
Tagged date : UTC 2003-01-31 16:06:00

Audio
ID : 2
Format : AAC
Format/Info : Advanced Audio Codec
Format version : Version 4
Format profile : LC
Format settings, SBR : Yes
Format settings, PS : No
Codec ID : 40
Duration : 12s 288ms
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 124 Kbps
Nominal bit rate : 128 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Channel positions : Front: L R
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Stream size : 186 KiB (1%)
Language : English
Encoded date : UTC 2003-01-31 16:06:00
Tagged date : UTC 2003-01-31 16:06:00

[poisondeathray]

you can try yamb to re-write the aspect ratio flag , but I don't think you can flag as interlaced. That's usually an interpreting function of the editor.

[agallo70]

Hi

thank you, yes YAMB works to set the 16:9 flag correctly but not the interlacing.

I have tried also combining multiple files in one single 16:9 with YAMB but this crashes both Pinnacle Studio and ALSO VLC, which opens as many player windows as the files I have joined together until the Windows XP desktop hangs...

best regards

[agallo70]

Hi

I have found the almost perfect solution here: http://albert182.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!9854B178EDFA1B9C!1721.entry

by converting to AVI with a DV codec using SUPER, then Studio properly recognises it as interlaced and the output MPEG2 is now perfect.

I am still missing the 16:9 part, maybe I will try and use YAMB after SUPER on the AVI (DV) or maybe first YAMB on the original MP4 from the Samsung camcorder and then SUPER on the output of YAMB.

So does it mean in the end that it is Pinnacle Studio that does not manage interlaced H.264 PAL properly or anyway some missing or wrong flag in the MP4 from the Samsung VP-MX20?

best regards

Andrea

[jagabo]

You should be able to change the way Pinnacle Studio treats the source file. I don't have it anymore but with most editors you right click on a video in the timeline and select the "source properties" or some such. Just tell it your source is 16:9, interlaced, and the field order. Studio should handle it properly after that.

[agallo70]

hi

yes, I can set the aspect ratio to 16:9 in Studio but no way to change the interlace/progressive setting.

As I have a fully original license, I spent long time with their support team last January and I had even shared a sample file with them but no solution...

regards

Andrea

[jagabo]

yes, I can set the aspect ratio to 16:9 in Studio but no way to change the interlace/progressive setting.

In that case you can usually use an interlaced project with the same field order as the source. You just have to be careful not to use filters that disturb the two fields.

[agallo70]

Hi

as said, the problem is that the file from the Samsung camcorder is marked as PROGRESSIVE instead of INTERLACED.

Of course I use an interlaced project, I need this to generate an MPEG2 to burn a DVD at a later stage.

All my problems come from the fact that Studio sees it as PROGRESSIVE and applies interlacing on top of an interlaced file. I end up with DOUBLE "comb" effect or interlace artifacts.

I have just got great support from Jerome Martinez, author of Media Info, and he has confirmed that the MP4 format from the camcorder is BROKEN as flagged as 5:4 PROGRESSIVE instead of WIDESCREEN INTERLACED.

Any advice on how to overwrite these flags? YAMB does not work...

best regards

Andrea

[poisondeathray]

for many editors it doesn't matter what it's flagged as, you can override it by interpreting it within the editor (you can make the editor "see" it as progressive , interlaced, 4:3, 16:9 , whatever) - that is what jagabo was getting at. Maybe pinnacle has similar function?

you could try re-wrapping into a transport stream e.g .using tsmuxer

can you upload a sample clip?

[jagabo]

It doesn't matter that your interlaced video is incorrectly flagged progressive. It's still possible in many circumstances to get proper interlaced MPG output if you handle the video properly in the editor. A 30p frame is sent to an interlaced TV the same way as a 30i* frame -- one field at a time.

Many devices/programs have problems with the MP4 container. As poisondeathray suggest, you might be able to remux into an MPEG transport stream or MKV container to get around the problems. Or, if Studio will accept an AviSynth script, you can use that instead. You should try avoiding reencoding the video before giving it to Studio because that will result in a loss of quality -- unless you go with a lossless codec which will give you very large intermediate files which Studio still may misinterpret as progressive.

* Camcorder manufacturers have started calling 30i 60i because they think bigger numbers sound better, but it's the same thing.

[agallo70]

Thank you all!

No, Pinnacle Studio v14 (or even v12) does not allow to define/force whether the input stream is interlaced or progressive. It just reads it from the container. It only allows to set 4:3 or 16:9. I have verified this with their support team.

I will try with TSMUXER this evening.

Any public place here in videohelp to upload a sample stream or shall I upload it on my public web site and provide the URL? I can do this as well this evening.

thanks and regards!

Andrea

[jagabo]

When you are composing a post, look below and you will see the "Upload files/Manage Attachments" button. You can attach video files up to 30 MB. If your sample is larger than that you can use a file transfer service like MediaFire.com or MegaUpload.com.

[agallo70]

ok great, here is a very small sample file!

thank you!

Andrea

[jagabo]

The file is definitely interlaced, bottom field first (though flagged progressive). I couldn't find anything that could remux it and flag it as interlaced. Maybe someone else knows of a tool...

I still think you can get Studio to handle it properly. Try a simple interlaced, bottom field first, PAL project without any filtering or transitions. If Studio won't let you encode BFF you can convert the video from BFF to TFF by cropping one scanline from the top and adding one scanline to the bottom. Then use a TFF project. If none of that works you might have to continue converting to DV AVI.

Of course, you'll soon find that Studio is too unstable for any substantial video editing and move on to something else. So this is a short term problem!

[poisondeathray]

i couldn't find anything to flag as interlaced either

jagabo - what about hex editing, you seem to be pretty saavy at that IIRC

FYI vegas, premiere have no issues interpreting the file to BFF

[jagabo]

jagabo - what about hex editing, you seem to be pretty saavy at that IIRC

I'm not familiar with the MP4 header though. If it has an interlace flag it might be as simple as changing a byte or two. Even so, it's not clear that Studio will pay any attention to it.

[agallo70]

Hi

no, I have tried starting with a PAL interlaced project and that is the problem. Studio sees it as progressive and applies interlacing. So the interlacing "comb" effect gets actually twice worse. Unacceptable.

Regarding moving from Studio to something else, I bought Studio 7 in 2002 and since then I have always upgraded up to Studio 12 and then got a free upgrade to Studio 14 to try and improve the issues with this camcorder

What would be a more stable alternative, which I can afford buying as an original licensed copy for a home user?

by the way, how is the Cinderella editor under Linux doing? and Kino? is there any nice one?

best regards

Andrea

[poisondeathray]

jagabo - what about hex editing, you seem to be pretty saavy at that IIRC

I'm not familiar with the MP4 header though. If it has an interlace flag it might be as simple as changing a byte or two. Even so, it's not clear that Studio will pay any attention to it.

you can use mp4cam2avi and it will rewrap into AVI container , for example, then maybe adjust the AVI header ?>

my understanding of hex editing and values is very limited

[jagabo]

The AVI header doesn't have an interlace flag. Any information about interlacing would only be in the private codec data. Maybe when I get a chance I'll try a quick x264 encode with and without interlace and see what's difference in the header.

[poisondeathray]

What would be a more stable alternative, which I can afford buying as an original licensed copy for a home user?

If you can't figure a way out to interpret the file or re-write the header (or whatever), you can check out the free trials for sony movie studio , or movie studio platinum which are their consumer oriented editing packages. See if they are able to intepret the file as interlaced like the pro versions can. You can play around and see if the editing style and workflow suits your needs before you buy. The consumer version for Adobe would be Premiere Elements. Both have free trials

[jagabo]

There's also Corel (previously Ulead) VideoStudio. I don't know if it can deal with the current problem though.