VHS and SCHS-C Capture advise

[magillagorilla]

Hello all,
I've been lurking here for about 2 months and reading a lot. I didn't want to be "that guy" who asks a bunch of question before seeking the path of self enlightenment. I'm capping some family video, VHS and SVHS-C. I have tried this in the past on an old machine with no luck. I currently have a Core 2 Quad with 4GB RAM and just got a Hauppauge WinTV-HVR-1250. I'm guessing it has hardware MPEG2 because I can record analog video and my processor never exceeds 22%.

Anyway, I can capture MPEG with no problem. I am archiving the old tapes to perserve them as is. I may want to do simple cuts in the future. The only think I can predict about the future is that these tapes will be un-playable, therefore, any capture is better than none. Some of the tapes are 25 years old. Luckily they still play on my POS VCR, but the quality is definately worse than it was 10 years ago.

Please stay with me, the question is coming in a second.

I would love to save these files in lossless but storage, backups and cost are a big problem and my PC does not seem to be able to grab raw AVI (frame drops are verry bad). I used all my money building this Core 2 Quad and buying the capture card. None of it is state of the art, but again, this is a "use what I have or use nothing" situation.

I tried transferring everything using a DVD recorder but the results are sub-par and I already have discs made 3-5 years ago failing. I basically want to get away from all tape and optical media. Plus DVD is just anoying with its split VOBs and quality limitations. My goal is to get all of my video on HDD and make copies to USB HDDs (which I already have).

I am capping with Power Director 7 and I am happy with MPEG2 VBR 14000-25000kbps. Anything lower shows loss. My source tapes range from very bad to very good. The very bad tapes are re-re-re-reused tapes with 2nd and 3rd generation video. Anything below 12000kbps shows signifigant blocking.

I guess I'm comfortable with something in the 5-9 GB/Hr region. Before I invest months of time recording this video, is there any issues I may be unaware of with using non-DVD compliant MPEG2 bit rates? Anything other codec or process I should consider? I have around 30 tapes and don't want to use a service, especially since everyone is caught up in this VHS to DVD craze. Honestly, DVD-r is not a great medium.

[jagabo]

What DVD recorder did you try? If it has a line time base corrector try running the signal from the VCR through the DVD recorder (not recording on a DVD, just passing the signal through the recorder) and see if you get better results. A line TBC will realign the scanlines and prevent them from wandering left/right randomly from frame to frame:

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/306272-Computer-video-capture-vs-vcr-to-dvd-combo?p...=1#post1882662

All that wandering is a killer of MPEG compression.

[magillagorilla]

Thanks for the reply jagabo. It's not really the play-back quality I am worried about at this point. I guess I would like figure what the best codes/bit rate for archiving is, without using a lossless codec while retaining good quality with the possibility of making cuts in the future.

The DVD recorder is a Toshiba d-vr600. I know, junk. My brother is going to len dme his Sony SVHS deck (mid-90s model of some kind).

My SVHS-C video is perfect looking, I am playing it back on the camcorder that made the recordings. But the questions still remains. I know lossless is the best idea but it is cost prohibitive to me right now. I am an avid audio archiver and know th evalue of lossless and restoration. Video is a different beast.

[jagabo]

Using an S-VHS deck with a built in line TBC is best.

If you can, set your MPEG encoder to use only I and P frames. B frames are encoded at a lower quality. Since you are willing to use higher bitrates and aren't concerned about DVD compatibility you don't need B frames (the idea is that encoding a B frame or two with lower quality isn't noticeable as the quality will be cleaned up shortly by a P or I frame). Avoid excessively long GOPs (the distance between I frames) to make editing easier in the future (although SD MPEG is pretty easy on editors). So instead of using a typical GOP sequence like IBBPBBPBBPBBPBBP, use IPPPPP instead. You may find that using only I frames is a little better but you'll need even more bitrate.

Also consider using a DV camcorder if you have access to one. That will require about 13 GB/hr but DV AVI is amongst the mostly widely supported formats for editing. And it's very easily edited because every frame is self contained (like all I frame MPEG and MJPEG).

[magillagorilla]

Thanks,
Unfortunately my DV camera does not have an input. I'm not sure I have any control over the GOP from Power Director 7. I have read about eliminating B frames. I didn't know if that would cause me any problems down the road.

Basically I don't want to make some huge mistake I will have to untangle or regret in 10 years, with the constraints of being broke. I know 1TB drives can be had for $80, but I'll need 3. One live, one backup and one offsite backup because that's how I roll. So that 1TB of video becomes $240 let alone keeping all copies synchronized.

I guess what I want to do is record everything at MPEG2 14000-25000Kbps and know that I am not making a big mistake. Given the quality of VHS, is it reasonable to expect near perfect copies at this bitrate with this codec? Looking to the future, video will be all PC, stream, or thumbdrive...... Discs and tapes are going away.

[themaster1]

...25k sure why not, how about 60k? No on the real it's 10k your best bet and I frames everywhere and a line tbc + pro amp will not hurt

[2Bdecided]

Given the quality of VHS, is it reasonable to expect near perfect copies at this bitrate with this codec?

Yes. Near-perfect (probably perfect) visually. Whether all the information a given noise filter needs to work properly is also present is a different question. Can't guarantee that. At 25Mbps peak, you're doing pretty well TBH. It's only the noisy tapes that even come close to causing a problem.

More important:

1. Make sure the levels are correct (don't clip backs or whites - this is unrecoverable)
2. Get a line TBC in there somewhere (TBC errors = wobbly lines = can't be corrected after capture)
3. For S-VHS(C) make sure you're using the S-video connection.

I'd be a little worried at being able to play non-DVD standard MPEG-2 easily in 10-20 years time. Still, you can probably transcode it when you hit that problem.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,
David.

EDIT - themaster1 said most of this more compactly - so compactly that I didn't even notice it!

[jagabo]

By the way, I'm pretty sure the HVR 1250 is a software MPEG 2 encoder.

[Nelson37]

15Mb, I-Frame Only Mpg-2 is generally considered to be visually transparent, or effectively lossless. Other than the large file size, no editing or encoding problems, I've worked with a whole bunch of these.

I've never heard of any good reason to go above 15Mb, even with the I-frames. Compared to current procedure, filesize may not change much.

You may be able to get some improvement by converting to AVI, applying filters, and re-encoding. Or capturing AVI first. Most Hauppage cards can do this with some tweaking, but not all.

An ATI card would possibly have been a better choice.

Many have reported some improvement with old VHS just by running the signal through another piece of equipment, such as a VCR or DVR, or video camera. You may be able to borrow a few for testing.

On the editing, I would advise CUT NOTHING. The stuff that your grandkids will find interesting will be the stuff that would hit the cutting room floor.

Cars with wooden bumpers in the 40's. Prices in store windows. Clothing and women's hats. A public drinking fountain with no sign. Positively identifying my great-grandfather. My kid's grandfather knocking over the (wooden) tripod, almost EXACTLY the same way I did it over 50 years later.

The good stuff is not where you think it is today.

Also, make some notes or add audio commentary. There will be a lot of "Where is this happening?" and "Who the heck ARE these people?"

[magillagorilla]

By the way, I'm pretty sure the HVR 1250 is a software MPEG 2 encoder.

I think you are right. I wasn't sure because the manufacturer web site was sparse on technical detail. I just read that the card would work with Windows 7 and Ubuntu. Well, it does not work in Ubuntu, and this was a secondary requirement anyway. I definately want a hardware encodeing card. Any suggestions on a sub $100 card?

My local store (where I have to return the HVR 1250) has ATI TV Wonder HD 600 PCIe on sale for $30. It looks decent, but compatibility does not list Windows 7.

.... prices vary wildly for unequal products. Any suggestions? I have to return the current card to Microcenter, I'd prefer to exchange it for a better card from there but I don't have to.

[jagabo]

Look for an ATI 650 based capture device (not the HD 600). They have a 3d comb filter which really helps with composite capture (cleans up dot crawl and chroma/luma crosstalk rainbow artifacts):

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/313735-Capture-card-for-Laserdisc-and-VHS-Good-card...=1#post1940519

They have a hardware MPEG 2 encoder but also allow for uncompressed YUY2 (using 3rd part software) capture (software compressed with your choice of codec).

http://www.frys.com/product/6119069
http://www.frys.com/product/6124759

[2Bdecided]

15Mb, I-Frame Only Mpg-2 is generally considered to be visually transparent, or effectively lossless.

I really don't agree. That's a fairly low bitrate for I-frame only. DV (also effectively I-frame only) is 25Mbps, and some of the professional world uses 50Mbps in preference. e.g. DVCPRO50, or the BBC''s 50Mbps MPEG-2 I-frame only playout servers.

Whereas with the full selection of I, P and B frames available, 15Mbps is quite a high bitrate, and 25Mbps is very generous.

You could argue that VHS doesn't deserve these bitrates, but the noise certainly requires them if it's not to cause blocking or other strange effects. Or use some NR before encoding, and use DVD compatible bitrates.

Cheers,
David.

[magillagorilla]

2Bdecided I agree. It does not seem like I should have to crank the bit rate up to 25Mbps to get a VHS capture to look good. Perhaps my card sucks, if indeed it does not have a hardware MPEG chipset and I am doing on-the-fly software encodeing, it could be the problem. Any opinion on the ATI 650 chipset? It seems to be well received by members of this forum.

[magillagorilla]

OK,
I've done lots of reading. I understand 70% of what the smart people say on this forum. It looks like the ATI 650 is a nice card but will not allow lossless captures easily... right? By that logic my Hauppauge WinTV-HVR-1250, which does not have a hardware encoder, should be able to capture raw AVI. Maybe, if a slap my computer around a little, trim the fat, and get it running lean I can capture raw AVI, without dropping frames. I can then I can code to MPEG2 after the fact.

However, if the ATI 650 will capture directly to MPEG2, in a quality consistant with the above method, it sure sounds a lot easier. Plus, the comb filter in the ATI 650 sounds like it may help my noisy tapes out.

[jagabo]

It looks like the ATI 650 is a nice card but will not allow lossless captures easily... right?

The ATI capture software doesn't support raw YUY2 capture but the hardware and drivers do. So you can use other software (VirtualDub, for example) to capture, thereby avoiding the MPEG2 encoding.

By that logic my Hauppauge WinTV-HVR-1250, which does not have a hardware encoder, should be able to capture raw AVI.

Yes, the HVR 1250 supports raw YUY2 capture. Again, you can use third party software with the card if Hauppauge's software doesn't do what you want.

Maybe, if a slap my computer around a little, trim the fat, and get it running lean I can capture raw AVI, without dropping frames. I can then I can code to MPEG2 after the fact.

However, if the ATI 650 will capture directly to MPEG2, in a quality consistant with the above method, it sure sounds a lot easier. Plus, the comb filter in the ATI 650 sounds like it may help my noisy tapes out.

I haven't used the ATI devices but in my experience hardware encoders don't do as good a job as the best software MPEG2 encoders. But since you are willing to go to very high bitrates that's not really an issue.

[lordsmurf]

Few things to remember...

- Hardware MPEG encoding does not mean automatically that it's better than software encoding, or hybrid encoding. Some hardware is crappy or average. Just look at those many crummy DVD recorders.
- Hauppauge MPEG cards can be soft at some resolutions. Not always top quality on these cards, though many are good.
- Most ATI cards have high quality MPEG capture.
- DV also has colorspace compression, and can look worse than MPEG-2. Depends on codecs, too.
- MPEG bitrates and quality can depend on noise and content. Sometimes 10Mbps is fine. Other times it's 12, 15, 20, 25 or more.

[2Bdecided]

If you're not going to denoise in software, then capturing lossless simply to encode to MPEG-2 very carefully in software is adding a huge amount of time to the process for very little gain.

Get a half-decent real-time encoder (hardware or software), and use a slightly higher bitrate to compensate for the fact that it's not quite as efficient as the best (slow) software encoder available.

(If you have a very fast machine, this may be less of an issue. MPEG-2 software encoding is slower than real time on my machine - to do it as an additional after-capture process more than double the time this all takes).

If you're willing to put this much time in, you should probably look at other noise reduction and restoration options too. See the threads in the restoration forum.

Cheers,
David.

[jagabo]

Looking just at the MPEG 2 encoding, there are two main reasons why non-realtime software (or hardware) MPEG encoding can give better results than realtime hardware (or software) encoding:

1) The software encoder can spend as much time as it wants searching for motion vectors. The realtime encoder has a finite amount of time to look for motion vectors (new NTSC frames are arriving every 1/30 second, PAL frames every 1/25th second, processing can't wait). The more motion vectors the encoder finds the better the compression it gets.

2) Software can use a 2-pass encoding to apportion bitrate. Segments that require more bitrate get it from segments that don't require as much. During the first pass the encoder looks at each segment of video to determine their relative bitrate requirements. During the second pass it apportions bitrate based on what it learned from the first pass. A realtime encoder doesn't know what may be coming in the future. All it can do is give a little more bitrate to segments that seem to need it, less to segments that don't. It can't apportion bitrate as well as a 2-pass encode.

Both of these problems can be overcome by using more bitrate.

[magillagorilla]

You all are providing great help. I appreciate it. I am getting close to a solution. Nelson37 thanks for the tips, I agree 100% about not deleting footage and I don't intend to. By cutting, I mean splitting video in to segments, not deleting material.

jagabo, I was running with the same logic of software verses hardware encode. After being unimpressed with my DVD recorder's hardware MPEG2 results I decided it was because the hardware is cheap. Besides, I really really dislike DVD as an archive format. I suspect results from the ATI 650 will look better. I'm still on the fence about getting another card, but the possibility of improvement in quality through the 3D filters is pulling me in.

Another discovery lastnight. I capped a segment of my worst looking VHS in RAW AVI using Power Director 7 then again in Virtualdub. The difference in the video is astounding. It would appear as though Power Director is not capping interlace, or is de-interlaceing the stream. This may also explain why I drop frames in Power Director, because it may be filtering the capture on the fly. Using Virtualdub, I dropped 0 frames, I was even capping the video to my OS drive (I know not to do this in a real capture).

I tried to reduce the sample to MPEG2 with TMPeg using the wizard on DVD-HQ for a test. My results are a black picture with only audio. When I go in to advanced settings in TMPeg, like the noise reduction, the preview window is also black. For some reason TMPeg cannot display the AVI I capped from Virtualdub. So I don't have a software encode sample yet, I suspect it will look much better than the "on the fly" MPEG2 captures I have been getting.

[jagabo]

I assume you verified you can open and view your cap with VirtualDub? Try changing the priorities of TMPGEnc's file reader (VFAPI) filters. By the way, TMPGEnc is a mediocre MPEG 2 encoder these days. I recommend using HcEnc via HcGUI and a simple AviSynth script:

AviSource("filename.avi")
ConnvertToYV12(interlaced=true)

[magillagorilla]

AviSource("filename.avi")
ConnvertToYV12(interlaced=true)

[/QUOTE]


I will try my capture again. The AVI from Virtualdub plays OK in windows media player. Thanks for the tips on the encoder. The last time I messed with any of this, 4-5 years ago, TMPeg was all the rage. I am going to try one of the others you suggested.

[jagabo]

I just noticed there's a typo in my AviSynth script. It should be ConvertToRGB, not ConnvertToRGB.

[lordsmurf]

I don't agree, 2B. Capture high bitrate MPEG-2, then re-encode down to multi-pass software MPEG-2 can be better than real-time MPEG-2. The concept of "better" is determined by content and quality of the encoders/hardware. Sometimes direct MPEG is fine, other times re-processing to DVD-Video specs is better.

Power Director is crap, always has been.

If using an Hauppauge or ATI card, use the software made by the manufacturer for MPEG recording, not third-party crapware.

[magillagorilla]

I don't agree, 2B. Capture high bitrate MPEG-2, then re-encode down to multi-pass software MPEG-2 can be better than real-time MPEG-2. The concept of "better" is determined by content and quality of the encoders/hardware. Sometimes direct MPEG is fine, other times re-processing to DVD-Video specs is better.

Power Director is crap, always has been.

If using an Hauppauge or ATI card, use the software made by the manufacturer for MPEG recording, not third-party crapware.

Does Virtualdub count as third-party? It

[magillagorilla]

I don't agree, 2B. Capture high bitrate MPEG-2, then re-encode down to multi-pass software MPEG-2 can be better than real-time MPEG-2. The concept of "better" is determined by content and quality of the encoders/hardware. Sometimes direct MPEG is fine, other times re-processing to DVD-Video specs is better.

Power Director is crap, always has been.

If using an Hauppauge or ATI card, use the software made by the manufacturer for MPEG recording, not third-party crapware.

Does Virtualdub count as third-party? Virtualdub did way better than Power Director for capping. I'll give Hauppague's software a go.

I purchased Power Director almost 2 years ago because it claimed to handle AVCHD. I have a Cannon HF100 I purchased around the same time. Power Director basically makes my video look worse when its not busy crashing. It does have one cool trick, it uses CUDA for MPEG4 encodeing. I'm sure this is becoming more common, but rendering vido in half time using my GPU was really cool to see for the first time.

[magillagorilla]

jagabo,

I was about to buy that Diamond ATI TVW650PCIE but I decided to look around the internet about it. Looks like it may not play nice with Windows 7. The Diamond site has no Win7 drivers for it, and some comments on NewEgg complaining about functionality with Win7. This is likely why the card is on sale like the two ATI cards I have been looking at from Microcenter. I failed to mention that my system is running Windows 7 64bit in the post. Do you by chance know if this card will work with Win7 64. Also the Diamond site lists the S-Video input but does not list a composite input or a hybrid S-Video/composite port. I know you are not a sales rep for Diamond or anything, just wondering if you know anything extra about the card. $40 is only a bargin if the card works

[lordsmurf]

VirtualDub can't record MPEG. I was referring to MPEG recordings.

[jagabo]

Actually, VirtualDub, with the addition of YMPEG, can produce MPG files:

http://www.ympeg.com/tutorial.htm

It can also produce MPEG 2 video in an AVI file with ffdshow.

I've never used YMPEG so I can't vouch for how well it works.

As long as VirtualDub works with your capture card (it doesn't work well with some) there is no problem using it. It is one of the more reliable and robust capture programs.

[jagabo]

I was about to buy that Diamond ATI TVW650PCIE but I decided to look around the internet about it. Looks like it may not play nice with Windows 7... I failed to mention that my system is running Windows 7 64bit

I'm not sure about the PCIe version but I'm pretty sure I've seen people post here that the USB version is working under Win7 64 bit. Drivers always seems to be an issue with ATI capture devices though.

This might be one:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/310814-PC-to-TV-questions-and-recommendation-reques...=1#post1918086

[magillagorilla]

OK, as soon as I get to one level of understanding, I realize I know nothing again. I'm running in to a bit of analysis paralysis. I just took one of my RAW AVI samples from Virtualdub and rendered it as a DV-AVI file. I am supprised at how much information it retained. My one minute sample was about 251MB in DV-AVI, which is far better than 1460MB a minute. Can Virtualdub capture directly to this format?

Also HCgui wanted an AVS file and didn't like my AVI I capped from Virtualdub. In Virtualdub I used the default YUY2 YUV 4:2:2 interleaved format. What format should I cap for use in HCgui?